I've Lost Some Trust

[RogueGunslinger]

Likewise, I'm not saying that we should definitely be on this platform.  However, the method of attack was that said platform was impossible, not used, or unrealistic based on resources.

Maybe if you're making assumptions and infering things that aren't there that was the "method of attack". But if you go back and read again you'll see I said:

I have never played a game where the staff did what you're suggesting.

Since it's a little vague I'll clarify: I've never played, heard of, or known about games that do that to the extent Kryos seems to want, ergo it's probably not a great method of running a game.

[Armaddict]

...which was why I said what I said, to inform you.

Your statement was, indeed, the inference, which was that because you did not know of it...wait.  You already stated that inference.  Yes, I called it method of attack, because you were using it to debase his claim that it was a valid way of doing things.

Again, I stated that it was common in places where satisfaction was important, and does show success on those fronts.

[Bogre]

I have never played a game where the staff did what you're suggesting.

It's not that uncommon in small indie games on Steam.

Maybe to a certain extent. But definitely not to the extent that every major change going into the game is discussed with and voted on by the consumers. It honestly sounds ludicrous just saying it.

Most games make reactionary changes and updates based on feedback.

I don't know that this is the case.

Mechwarrior Online, which has a large and very active community- a community that's actually more similar to a mud or indie game community than some big MMO, does a lot of this. Town Hall discussions for balance and new features, tons of balance done based on player feedback, public test servers before changes are rolled out for the actual game, and yes...road maps and outlines of planned upcoming features from the Dev-team. They preview some -very- ire-raising stuff on twitter, teamspeak and forum posts . And often - it's the players who have the best input and ideas because they're the ones spending hours actually playing. They might not have the big picture data, but

So the flak Kryos is getting for posting this is a little bit puzzling. I think 'losing trust in the staff' is knee-jerk of course, but really, vilifying him because you don't think it possible or preferable that staff or dev teams can preview/get feedback prior to making changes isn't warranted.

I trust that the staff have the game's best interest in heart. Do I feel that there could have hypothetically been a way to broach the big change rather than bomb-dropping? Yeah, I think so.


More important, of course, is being responsive to feedback, whether pre and post change, and I trust our brain eaters to do that.

[Asmoth]

I have never played a game where the staff did what you're suggesting.

It's not that uncommon in small indie games on Steam.

Maybe to a certain extent. But definitely not to the extent that every major change going into the game is discussed with and voted on by the consumers. It honestly sounds ludicrous just saying it.

Most games make reactionary changes and updates based on feedback.

I don't know that this is the case.

Mechwarrior Online, which has a large and very active community- a community that's actually more similar to a mud or indie game community than some big MMO, does a lot of this. Town Hall discussions for balance and new features, tons of balance done based on player feedback, public test servers before changes are rolled out for the actual game, and yes...road maps and outlines of planned upcoming features from the Dev-team. They preview some -very- ire-raising stuff on twitter, teamspeak and forum posts . And often - it's the players who have the best input and ideas because they're the ones spending hours actually playing. They might not have the big picture data, but

So the flak Kryos is getting for posting this is a little bit puzzling. I think 'losing trust in the staff' is knee-jerk of course, but really, vilifying him because you don't think it possible or preferable that staff or dev teams can preview/get feedback prior to making changes isn't warranted.

I trust that the staff have the game's best interest in heart. Do I feel that there could have hypothetically been a way to broach the big change rather than bomb-dropping? Yeah, I think so.


More important, of course, is being responsive to feedback, whether pre and post change, and I trust our brain eaters to do that.

I don't think anyone is saying, "Kyros is a bad guy for saying this!".

I do think that people are saying, "Kyros is looking at this the wrong way."

Which in my opinion he is, at least how I am taking his posts and views.  He feels entitled to some type of say, because he plays this game.

Which is not the way it works, the only ones entitled to anything is the staff who pay for the hosting, the server maintenance and who code the game.

I think most people have been very civil with Kyros.

[Bogre]

TBH, I'm not sure why you're so passive about it.

This is collaborative story telling, not simply game consumerism. I note that to both sides of the debate. It's our game- players and staff. It's not a mutually exclusive scenario for winning or enjoyment here.

[burble]

TBH, I'm not sure why you're so passive about it.

This is collaborative story telling, not simply game consumerism. I note that to both sides of the debate. It's our game- players and staff. It's not a mutually exclusive scenario for winning or enjoyment here.

I disagree. We are free to take a break (I frequently do) and quit playing. We are free to give up on a character and store (or just get tired of typing flee). Staff has to keep the story going.

Maybe it is better not to lump all players under the same banner. I am just a casual player and I am here to enjoy the experience.

I don't assume that the changes were created in a vacuum just because I wasn't invited to the focus group.

Whatever validation you feel you need from staff or this game - I don't need it. It is that simple.
I can't comprehend why it is so important to you. When you turn your pc off, your life isn't changed by this game.

No attempt at using logic is going to sway me, I think you are over emotional for getting up in arms about it (pun intended).
I know the difference between reaching a conclusion and trying to justify a conclusion.

I'll reiterate. The decision making process does not bother me.

[Asmoth]

TBH, I'm not sure why you're so passive about it.

This is collaborative story telling, not simply game consumerism. I note that to both sides of the debate. It's our game- players and staff. It's not a mutually exclusive scenario for winning or enjoyment here.

I disagree. We are free to take a break (I frequently do) and quit playing. We are free to give up on a character and store (or just get tired of typing flee). Staff has to keep the story going.

Maybe it is better not to lump all players under the same banner. I am just a casual player and I am here to enjoy the experience.

I don't assume that the changes were created in a vacuum just because I wasn't invited to the focus group.

Whatever validation you feel you need from staff or this game - I don't need it. It is that simple.
I can't comprehend why it is so important to you. When you turn your pc off, your life isn't changed by this game.

No attempt at using logic is going to sway me, I think you are over emotional for getting up in arms about it (pun intended).
I know the difference between reaching a conclusion and trying to justify a conclusion.

I'll reiterate. The decision making process does not bother me.

Exactly, do I wanna play a ranger/sorcerer some day, damn right.

But if that never happens my life isn't changed in any meaningful way, it's along the same level as one of my favorite restaurants closing down.  Am I disappointed? Sure, but it doesn't affect my bills, my health, my job, my family so it doesn't really matter.

I want a Bentley too some day, but again, doesn't stop me from driving my normal car until then or forever if it never happens.  It almost seems like to me that people are acting like changes to this game are actually affecting your day to day life, and if that's true, I think you need to talk to someone about your problems and get some help.

Be frustrated, be upset, be indifferent, be happy, but know that NONE of those feelings good or bad give you any right to ANYTHING.

[Bogre]

I think you guys drew the wrong conclusion there. I'm not bent out of shape or emotionally beat up about all of this.

I mean, I sometimes don't play for months too, but I'm invested in this game, in that I would like to see it flourish. Discussing the way that happens isn't taboo. I'm not interested in labeling anyone as entitled to things in Arm, nor in demanding staff be obligated to do something. Both sides should be invested in keeping this game going. If you feel casual enough about Arm that you don't mind at all what happens, fine, but don't ask that everyone else take such a stance.

Everyone is here for the same reason: to have fun playing, running or developing Arm.

[valeria]

I wouldn't be comfortable with majority rule when it's by people who have no real grounding in what they're talking about.  Players don't have access to any of the behind-the-curtain game data, and I personally don't want us to.  I don't see much point in being consulted in a decision when I can't make an informed decision, and I don't want to be able to make an informed decision because I have absolutely no desire to learn the inner workings of the game.  The mystery is part of the fun for me.

Honestly, if I wanted to be consulted on decisions, I'd join staff.

[Delirium]

^^ boom.

I've come to peace with that. I may know a lot about the game, but it's impossible for me to have staff viewpoint on things.

[RogueGunslinger]

I have never played a game where the staff did what you're suggesting.

It's not that uncommon in small indie games on Steam.

So the flak Kryos is getting for posting this is a little bit puzzling. I think 'losing trust in the staff' is knee-jerk of course, but really, vilifying him because you don't think it possible or preferable that staff or dev teams can preview/get feedback prior to making changes isn't warranted.

Vilify, flak? Eh. I also never said it was impossible to preview or get feedback prior to making changes... I in fact said staff has already done that.

[John]

My own feelings on this issue have nothing to do with a lack of consultation but instead are about yet another unique part (arguably the most unique element of the game when considering the things that have been excised over the years, outside of Tuluk of course) removed from the player accessible part of the game. I know of no game that has shadow elementalists that function like Drovians. Or an Anti-Magick class that functions like Nilazi. Lightning elementalists are arguably less unique, although in my view a well thought out element when you consider the desert theme of the game. Could these parts have used finessing and updating? Sure. We just had the other 4 elemental guilds transformed into subguilds. There could have definitely been modifications done to how Drovians, Nilazi and Elkrosians function. Instead they just got removed.

The more unique elements that are removed from the game, the more generic Armageddon becomes. There is nothing unique about fire elementalists, water elementalists, air elementalists and earth elementalists. Dark Sun has them. Al Qadim has them. Pathfinder has them (they call them sorcerers). Games have had them for years. Reducing the magic options to those and sorcerers makes the game feel more generic then it previously did. The more generic it becomes the less appeal it has to me. A revamp of the Elementalists Quarter and removal of in game references to Drovians and Elkrosians (to avoid confusing those poor new players) seem inevitable to me.

None of that is related to prior consultation. None of this is fixable by "trying out the new subguilds" because none of this is related to the parts that were kept. I'm concerned about the parts that have been removed.

Does anyone trust that psionicists aren't going to be excised next? After all, you could argue they're not people either. In fact any guild can. Including the warrior. Because face it: most of the guilds have been fairly one-dimensional. If we're looking at the coded skills as opposed to how people play those roles of course.

[Chettaman]

This is why America is the way it is. Consumerism. People don't want to be a part of whatever they're enjoying anymore. Some people don't even know meat comes from animals. They just buy it in stores.

While comparing armageddon to real life events, I realize that armageddon is just a game. But I enjoy it. Not only that, the staff welcome new ideas. So we give them as well as our opinions. Not only, do they welcome our new ideas they implement them. The direct cause and effect is possible. When we go unheard without explanation it makes sense that we should be upset. They welcome ideas and then shun them without explaining why. And of course, the reasons may be diplomatic. Choosing the right words, affecting minds a certain way, all of these things affect us, the consumers.

If a great deal of real world consumers told the farmers that they didn't like the way the meat was brown they would color the meat red with a mostly harmless food coloring to make it look ''fresh''. If a great deal of consumers said they didn't like the way the cows were treated before ''processing''... any change to this would hinder production. Any change to this would cost a great deal of money as well as put the lives of the consumers at risk. There are other solutions. Other ... more reasonable solutions. Increased cattle farmer to cattle ratio or whatever... but the idea is that the big business can't just stop what they're doing and continued mistreatment of animals before processing is going to upset the consumers that are complaining.
an sincere explanation of things could make the angry consumers feel better knowing that the cattle ranchers are doing everything they can. ... if they are.

fortunately we're only talking about a game. No lives are actually at stake and the number of people affected are much smaller than an entire nation. And the staff /has/ responded to us. The staff /does/ respond to us, we even have live chat meetings that I always frick'n miss. We are the consumers! Staff want us to consume as much as we want to consume.
But... change doesn't always happen in the blink of an eye. Conversations have to be made, knowledge has to be gained, truth must be decided and then action can be taken.
Saying it is foolish to invest any real emotion into something a person consumes is lazy thinking (unrelated) and is the reason America is where it is today. The "man" doesn't always win. We always let him be the winner.

It is not useless to speak to the hand that feeds. Especially if you're trying to make things better. Discussion leads to knowledge and knowledge is power!
and of course... the staff could act as tyrants, but I mean... it's just a game and I'm going to keep playing and choppin' mutha fuckuz up with bone swords.

[Kryos]

I opened this thread with pure intentions, and I had hoped to solicit a real over dinner style conversation with people and staff alike about the reciprocity standard of trust.  People were trying to flip the table and people made excellent points.  In the end, this conversation didn't come to be.  I admit, I'm pretty sad about that.  I can see the perception of a viper in the grass this discussion represents, but I also meant it when I say reciprocity is invaluable and I didn't come with a hand behind my back.

This would be my sign off on this topic, unless the conversation is sparked, here or elsewhere.  For those that participated, for or against, thank you.

[hopeandsorrow]

I'm such a Jerk for pushing this thread to the top, but the first post kind of stuck with me.

I haven't played in awhile, thinking I might be up again for Armageddon.

Then I read the magick changes.

I more then likely will not be playing.

Why?  Because A great majority of you got to experience these things, the power of sorcery, incredible magicks, dark evil niliaz plots.

Me? None of it, and now I'll never experience it.  Ya'll close the gates on something that always interested me, and it feels going forward more will be closed, more will be removed and only the veterans, will have the memories, the privilege of those experiences.  That stuff motivated me some days to really get into the game.

I got to play... a couple of Rukkian's and loved it, though I died newbishly before I could really get into the RP, to know I'll never be a strange drovian or something equally as awesome.  I dunno, it's a very big fuck you newb in my book.  But oh well, I've never known this community to have much sympathy in that regard or think a player might genuinely be interested in a purely magick role.

Thankfully the alt-gdb at least allow me to read the experiences of other players and what some of things were possible in game, though like I've already said.  I'm truly disappointed I'll never experience them myself.

Now that I'm done being a Jerk and resurrecting this thread, continue your regularly schedule GDB.