I've Lost Some Trust

[RogueGunslinger]

Sorry I missed that before. That is a great example of a better way things could have been done.


Edit: Though I should add, would add a lot of extra work for staff.

[Kryos]

I suppose I'll repeat ad nauseam: I actually love the subguild addition, hate the removal of 50% of the games guilds.   But its not about liking or disliking facets or the whole of the change.  Its that we can't do anything about it and don't get told.  That's the point of the thread.  And there's no time required to digest that.

Edit to add in:  There's a discussion of these changes thread, for that type of post.  (and typo)

[Kryos]

Nergal, I'm going to say I'm baffled by your position.  Staff decides to yet again surprise the player base with a massive, sweeping change and then says our opinions on it are moot due to being reflexive.  As I've said before, I have a pretty high opinion of a lot of staff members I've played under and communicated with, including you.  It is because of this high opinion I refuse to believe that you do not understand psychology enough to grasp that letting an idea or change wither away and fade from importance in the mind of human beings results in far less critical evaluation of it.  Or that peer review is one of the most brutally effective methods of beating a raw idea into a honed one.

Further, my reaction is far from reflexive or knee jerk, because I've had what, years now of this same behavior to make up my mind?  This seems a very round about way of supporting my statement that the methodology is flawed.  Allow me to expound and open to the general audience.

This is not the first time this has happened, as in, "Surprise: Hlum nobles are closed, Surprise:  Tuluki culture has been utterly revamped, Surprise:  Red Fangs are Closed, Surprise: Tuluk's closed, Surprise: Sorcerers are removed and now just subguilds with a literal fraction of the ability, Surprise:  Mages are gone and now sub guilds with a literal fraction of the power, but can be combined with main guilds now.  P.S.  Several of them are just flat gone."  That's a lot of Surprise!  I would say everyone's plenty familiar with surprise by now.  And I do not even begin to grasp the why of a few of these changes, while acknowledging the desired result or needs of others.  Previously in the thread, for instance, I pointed out how sorcerers were responsible for two situations of world shaping politics, role playing intensity, and player engagement.  Their reward for functioning well in their capacity was to be removed.  That mystified me.  Closing Tuluk is a different example.  I, for one, enjoyed the location.  But I can in good faith say I see why it was closed.  But there's a more important problem with all this.

I have not seen any indications of player input having any impact on these decisions, nor them being changed down the road.  Is there any sort of goal oriented and plot driving behaviors commensurate to replace Hlum nobility being removed?  Nope.  Are there Red Fangs, or some other equivalent competent player driven antagonistic force in the world?  Hm, nope.  I could go on with every single large change but one.  Never did I see staff asking for any input about any of this, only player driven movements to express their opinions with placating responses, or responses that avoided the thrust of the topic, or no response at all.  

There is one exception to this that could be noted:  sorcerer subguilds got some more spells.  But, well, how many unique players have played a sorcerer since then?  As in, not the same person doing subguild sorcerers a few times, but unique player accounts.  Did they all get harvested input some how?  So, take that figure and divide it by a number greater than 300, to represent the entire player base.  That's the percent of the player base who had no input on that, after the fact let alone before.  Guessing there's been maybe 15 unique sorcerer players, not staff to that 300, we see 95% exclusion.  I am purposefully excluding staff's player accounts because their voice is already heard, as per the jist of this all.  Understanding that there is a margin of error for both sides, I suspect the ratio is about right due to the scarcity of the role.  As in, it is the most scare role of all.

Now, some swath of the unrepresented wanted to be a sorcerer, some swath of them likely wanted sorcerers to go away, some swath will be indifferent, and so on.  Regardless of their stance, they had no input.  Like, indifferent, or hate the changes its irrelevant, because just as easily down the road you could find the behavior turned on its head in terms of your enjoyment, and you'll have just as little voice.

Simply put, some one show me in some capacity players have agency and have in fact, changed the outcome and how I can participate in that and I'll take my painted sign and go home.  If I got to offer my voice and was in the minority every time I'd be infinitely more pleased with the state of affairs, while human nature and many examples dictate so too would most others.   Otherwise, this really is put up with it or quit, as there are no other outlets I can see.


P.S.
This is challenging, I admit that hands down.  Given the situation, however, it has to be.  This is not a call to stop changing things, or trying to make the game better.  Everyone who contributes to that process is awesome for doing so in my opinion.

edit:  double negative, Kryos.  Double negative.

[Marauder Moe]

Back in the day, I argued with staff a lot about the tdesc feature.  It literally took years, and admittedly some staff turnover, but now we have tdescs.  Hairdressers rejoice!

Beloved clans have been closed, then re-opened (then closed again, then re-opened again).

Lost in all this recent 'gicker hubbub was this:

-Draw can now be used with the syntax, "draw X es"

A player suggestion directly and immediately from the GDB.

If I didn't believe that staff value player opinions, I wouldn't bother giving mine.

If staff didn't value player opinions, they wouldn't bother arguing with us.

Let's try our best remember that at the very least, both sides are coming from a place of love.

Now back to our regularly scheduled feud, already in progress.

[Warsong]

Back in the day, I argued with staff a lot about the tdesc feature.  It literally took years, and admittedly some staff turnover, but now we have tdescs.  Hairdressers rejoice!

Beloved clans have been closed, then re-opened (then closed again, then re-opened again).

Lost in all this recent 'gicker hubbub was this:

-Draw can now be used with the syntax, "draw X es"

A player suggestion directly and immediately from the GDB.

If I didn't believe that staff value player opinions, I wouldn't bother giving mine.

If staff didn't value player opinions, they wouldn't bother arguing with us.

Let's try our best remember that at the very least, both sides are coming from a place of love.

Now back to our regularly scheduled feud, already in progress.

I think, in fairness, that this can't be compared to Kryos' examples of things like closing Tuluk and quartering sorcerers. He pointed out major, gamechanging decisions happening without any kind of warning or debate, to which something like 'draw es' doesn't quite compare.

[Nergal]

Kryos, it is extremely disappointing to see players repeatedly read more into what I am saying than what I am actually saying. In another thread three posters took me saying that magicker skill trees were lacking to mean that players were mishandling magicker guilds. I like to think I am pretty clear when I write posts here, so I'm starting to wonder if the consistent misinterpretation is a deliberate attempt at drawing me into an argument I'm not trying to have, for a side I don't even support.

I have consistently made a distinction between player observations (which I value the most, but are based on trial, and generally come a few months after a change), player feelings (which I appreciate, and have said in other threads that I appreciate), player conjecture and extrapolation (which is not based on trial and has less value), and attempts by players to use their status as a player, and specifically the threat of them quitting, to force change or a reversal of a change (which I find absurd).

[Marauder Moe]

I think, in fairness, that this can't be compared to Kryos' examples of things like closing Tuluk and quartering sorcerers. He pointed out major, gamechanging decisions happening without any kind of warning or debate, to which something like 'draw es' doesn't quite compare.

Well, technically we did have both warning and debate about those.  Just not "consultation".

There's reasons why prior consultation might not really be that much better for anyone, but other posts have covered that.

Besides, basically no games are ever run/developed that way.

BUT, while it may not make sense to consult players before making decisions, it's certainly not impossible to reverse/adjust them after trial and feedback.

[Harmless]

Sorry I missed that before. That is a great example of a better way things could have been done.


Edit: Though I should add, would add a lot of extra work for staff.

In the sense that the subguilds were probably going to get tweaks and revisions anyway, I don't think it would have taken any more effort at all to just keep the original mainguilds alongside them.

[Asmoth]

I said it before, Kyros, you obviously a smart dude and have a head on your shoulders.  However, what nergal is saying is true, you're throwing out wild guesses on things you don't know.  The number of newly minted sorcerers after the change, unique accounts and etc.

Why is this, after two or three days still such a huge powderkeg? Staff has told you and others over and over their reasoning, which they didn't need to, but did to give you a feeling of clarity I'm sure.  There is about three to four people who are doing the equivalent of, "Ok that does make sense BUT..." Over and over.

I'm not saying you can't be upset, I'm. It saying you could t have this huge discourse through a private request with staff where after this amount of time I feel it belongs, not to mention we are talking about spells and such which has never been posted before, at least on this forum.

I'm way less worried about players leaving than staff going "Well fuck that guild revamp if this is the response we get from changing magickers!"

Just because the game hasn't had any major changes in 20 plus years, doesn't mean it shouldn't or won't.  We need to adapt to challenge and change.

[John]

I have definitely lost some trust over staff. I am quite disappointed by this action and will be taking one of my (extremely frequent) breaks from the game. I can see this as nothing but a giant mistake and I'm afraid the Armageddon I grew up with won't be around in a few years time.

But that isn't all doom and gloom. The game has always evolved. Back when the game was going to launch it had druids, warlocks, shadowdancers and a dawnmagus. The game clearly doesn't have those now. I personally think it's better for it. Unfortunately this is only the latest step in the things the game had when I first started. We had kanks, halflings, templars who inspired fear and would make you bow, players who felt like they were movers and shakers. Shortly before I started the T'zai Byn were kicked out of Allanak and forced to operate out of Red Storm for a while. We had flashpowder. None of this feels possible anymore. The clans aren't coming and going every few years. They've remained the same (or have been taken out without anything to replace it). The T'zai Byn is now so engrained it will never be removed. Players no longer have the option to succeed or fail on any scale beyond their own personal lives because everything is too powerful to ever face any significant risk to it's survival. Unless of course staff decide to remove it at which point it feels like there is nothing the players can do to save it.

Some of those early days were definitely viewed through the eyes of a newbie, something none of us can ever get back. Some if it was a game that was distinctly different. Some of the things from back in those days weren't great. Others shouldn't have been removed but I can understand the motives at the time and I do not fault staff for failing to rollback those changes. But when I read the rules and saw things like

Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
truly whatever you can imagine occurring.

I got a vision of a world where anything was possible. Now we have a game where what is possible is codified. I no longer trust that what I value in this game is also valued by staff. Because the fact enough staff members were okay with this change to allow it to happen tells me they have a very different idea of what this game should and should not have. That rule about laying seige to a city and the possibilities being limitless? No longer part of the official rules as far as I can see. Which really says everything right there.

So I'll be off, just as all those people ragequit the game when the Drow city was removed or the Dawnmagus was retired. I truly hope those that stick around really enjoy the game. Because it is for you that this game is heading in the current direction. If you do feel strongly about this topic then I implore you to raise your voice, not just on these forums but in the request tool as well. I would love to stay and fight for the game that I first started playing, but with such a monumental change made without any player consultation or any indication that staff are receptive to rolling back this change, I no longer trust I have the ability to do anything to enact positive change as a player.

Their explanation makes perfect sense to me. Everyone would be storing their characters to play the full magickers if they were told beforehand. It would definitely have dragged the quality of the game down.

If this is the official reasoning then it sounds like staff have lost a lot of trust in the players as well.

[Lizzie]

Kryos, it is extremely disappointing to see players repeatedly read more into what I am saying than what I am actually saying. In another thread three posters took me saying that magicker skill trees were lacking to mean that players were mishandling magicker guilds. I like to think I am pretty clear when I write posts here, so I'm starting to wonder if the consistent misinterpretation is a deliberate attempt at drawing me into an argument I'm not trying to have, for a side I don't even support.

I have consistently made a distinction between player observations (which I value the most, but are based on trial, and generally come a few months after a change), player feelings (which I appreciate, and have said in other threads that I appreciate), player conjecture and extrapolation (which is not based on trial and has less value), and attempts by players to use their status as a player, and specifically the threat of them quitting, to force change or a reversal of a change (which I find absurd).

I'm one of the people who has mentioned the possibility of leaving Armageddon, and I want to say - I'm not threatening to do anything, or hold any kind of status over anyone's head, or extort or whatever else. Armageddon is a game I've enjoyed for a very very long time. I enjoyed it as much as I did, because of the magick system. When you make this significant change to the system that made me love the game so much, you change my enjoyment of the game. If I don't enjoy it anymore, I'm not going to spend time doing it. I'd be very sad to leave it, IF I were to leave it.

I also know that you're not done with the changes yet. I might not be enjoying it right this minute - and I know I have zero interest in playing a magick subguild, as things are right this minute. But hey you might have a different kind of change coming up in the next few weeks that blows everything I DID enjoy about the game to smithereens with a whole new exciting level of "fun-factor." I'm not optimistic. I'm also not pessimistic. I'm dissatisfied with the current situation. And neutral about the future because I don't know what it holds.

But I am stating - if the future holds more dissatisfaction than fun, there won't be any reason to keep playing. One should expect nothing less from anyone who is active in any hobby, ever.

I have no problem with not being informed in advance of these changes. I also don't agree that the playerbase as a whole should be consulted with on things that they might not even know anything about. So I disagree with the trust issue, as it applies to this thread. I would have liked the AFFECTED people to be queried in advance, and I think that would've gone a LONG way in preventing the need for damage-control.

[Nergal]

John, is it possible that that blurb was taken out of the list of rules because it's not a rule? Is it possible that the game still operates on that philosophy provided that players actually reach for it? A lot of the time I see players limiting themselves, and as a staff member I try to push them toward trying something big.

Good luck on your break, in any case. Good luck to anyone else who decides that this change is the breaking point and decide to take a break or quit completely. All I have to say is that if we stopped changing the game out of fear of players leaving then the game would never change. We change the game with the hope that players will try it and have fun. We can't do anything about players who decide to throw their hands up at one point. Either staff do their job as staff, and contribute to the game, possibly risking players departing over the changes - or we do nothing and risk players leaving out of frustration over stagnation.

[Asmoth]

Kryos, it is extremely disappointing to see players repeatedly read more into what I am saying than what I am actually saying. In another thread three posters took me saying that magicker skill trees were lacking to mean that players were mishandling magicker guilds. I like to think I am pretty clear when I write posts here, so I'm starting to wonder if the consistent misinterpretation is a deliberate attempt at drawing me into an argument I'm not trying to have, for a side I don't even support.

I have consistently made a distinction between player observations (which I value the most, but are based on trial, and generally come a few months after a change), player feelings (which I appreciate, and have said in other threads that I appreciate), player conjecture and extrapolation (which is not based on trial and has less value), and attempts by players to use their status as a player, and specifically the threat of them quitting, to force change or a reversal of a change (which I find absurd).

[fourTwenty]

I got a vision of a world where anything was possible. Now we have a game where what is possible is codified.

I recently got told I couldn't do something IG because then everyone else would want to do it. Got told my idea "was not going to happen" because it might set a precedent for others to do the same.
WTF?

Yeah, I doubt they're going to let you build a merc company to rival the Byn. I doubt there going to let.you raise an army and try to sack 'Nak.

[John]

John, is it possible that that blurb was taken out of the list of rules because it's not a rule? Is it possible that the game still operates on that philosophy provided that players actually reach for it?

Is it possible? Sure. But when I started someone successfully special apped for a werekank  creature (or something like that). Today we have categorical.y been told that players will not be permitted to spe ial app for Drovians, Elkrosians and Nilazi despite the fact those things are still virtually in the game. There is no denying that things have changed.

And not all change is bad. But some changes are additive, others are reductive. The inclusion of magickal subguilds for thise who don't want the limitations that come with a full magicker class would have been a great addition to the game. But it wasn't an additive change. It came at the expense of something else. And with those elements gone I feel Armageddon has lost some of what helped make it unique and set it apart.

So a break is a healthy response. It gives time for emotions to cool down  and for things to play out. I've frequently taken breaks, but everytime I did I trusted that when I came back I would always find a welckming home. I don't trust this will be true this time tnough. Although I do hope that when I do come back Armageddon is better then ever. It might not be something I can enjoy, but that doesn't make it bad.

[Desertman]

John.

John plz.

If you stay, I will be your friend.

I can't give you karma, or magical powers, but I can be your friend.

I can be your friend Joooohn.
Together we can play the game.
We can roleplay elves forever....
Just please John...don't go away...

(The tune of Hero by Enrique Iglesias.)

[Is Friday]

 

Jesus.

Thanks for removing Drovians. Good change overall imo. I'm looking forward to trying out these subguilds. It'll be fun.

[Norcal]

Wow...

To staff: (If you bother to read this post) Some of the playerbase are feeling insecure, upset and perhaps even a bit betrayed. If the feelings are justified or not..not my call.  Yet, the feelings are there.

So reassure them. Let them know that the process will be in review, let them know that if -down the road a bit- enough people are not liking the changes that you can adjust, or even go back. Let them know their voices will be heard.  If you have already done this in the myriad of other threads about this issue, then centralize all those responses in one staff announcement post. It will cost you very little to do that and it would perhaps calm things down.

To the players who are talking about leaving: (If you even bother to read this post) Don't be silly. Staff have done something to try and make the game you love  even better.  At least give it a try before you say it is rubbish. Then provide some positive feedback to staff about the changes, and make your requests. If after all that you are still dischuffed, then leave if you must.

[Nergal]

So a break is a healthy response. It gives time for emotions to cool down  and for things to play out. I've frequently taken breaks, but everytime I did I trusted that when I came back I would always find a welckming home. I don't trust this will be true this time tnough. Although I do hope that when I do come back Armageddon is better then ever. It might not be something I can enjoy, but that doesn't make it bad.

That is true. I took a peek at your logins and it seems you've been on a break for about a month or so, and I hope you eventually feel refreshed enough to come back. I like to think that this game has a steady stream of veterans who come and go, and they certainly are welcome to come and go as they please.

Wow...

To staff: (If you bother to read this post) Some of the playerbase are feeling insecure, upset and perhaps even a bit betrayed. If the feelings are justified or not..not my call.  Yet, the feelings are there.

So reassure them. Let them know that the process will be in review, let them know that if -down the road a bit- enough people are not liking the changes that you can adjust, or even go back. Let them know their voices will be heard.  If you have already done this in the myriad of other threads about this issue, then centralize all those responses in one staff announcement post. It will cost you very little to do that and it would perhaps calm things down.

We've definitely said this in multiple threads. The implication in the original announcement that this was the "first phase" of guild renovation means we're already considering additional changes, improvements, fixes and so on.

[Malifaxis]

** this posted meme is intended to be tongue-in-cheek about kneejerk player reactions, and is not meant to be directly insulting or inflamatory to anyone, anything, or anyone or anything's pets, cars, or sexual toys.  Please do not report me and get me banned again.

***** I love the changes.

[Norcal]

Wow...

To staff: (If you bother to read this post) Some of the playerbase are feeling insecure, upset and perhaps even a bit betrayed. If the feelings are justified or not..not my call.  Yet, the feelings are there.

So reassure them. Let them know that the process will be in review, let them know that if -down the road a bit- enough people are not liking the changes that you can adjust, or even go back. Let them know their voices will be heard.  If you have already done this in the myriad of other threads about this issue, then centralize all those responses in one staff announcement post. It will cost you very little to do that and it would perhaps calm things down.

We've definitely said this in multiple threads. The implication in the original announcement that this was the "first phase" of guild renovation means we're already considering additional changes, improvements, fixes and so on.

Wonderful. Good enough for me.

[WarriorPoet]

** this posted meme is intended to be tongue-in-cheek about kneejerk player reactions, and is not meant to be directly insulting or inflamatory to anyone, anything, or anyone or anything's pets, cars, or sexual toys.  Please do not report me and get me banned again.

***** I love the changes.

You turn me on.

[Kryos]

Malifaxis and WarriorPoet, shame on you.  Either for being illiterate or unwilling to participate in an meaningful manner:  either way its quite disappointing and frankly embarrassing for you.  With your tenure as community members you should be exemplars, not pseudo junior high school kids.

Nergal, no shame on you at all.  Thanks for keeping it top notch.  I too find false ultimatums to be disappointing, or grandstanding for attention if I had to speculate.  My intention and purpose here is neither.  And I have no desire or intention on considering that in regards to other posters.

I have quite the aversion to confrontation, and had to beat that out of myself for years in order to be able to effectively push myself to elevate my communication abilities.  I don't use chicanery as it seems some others are apt to employ.  I don't come a discussion sideways(though I catch myself being goaded now and again), I try to tackle things head on.  And what I'm coming head on at is:  I don't see any means of players  making a reasonable, outward facing, and informed contributions towards changes being made.  And many of the ideas and notions I've put forth as have others here remain unanswered or unaddressed.

As for getting vague numbers, there's sources that allow one to make informed, educated guesses about ratios and the like.  Unique login/month and New Account/month compiled over 3 years time as well as 3rd party tracking behaviors that were in place.  Not mine, I'll note, I could make such tools but I find that kind of invasive behavior repugnant.  Add to that a long time with my nose in data, and I'm actually quite confident in my educated guesses even if they rarely do flop.  Moving on.

Reading something like John's post leaves me with a sense of empathy.  Things like this are like a sucker punch in the RP gut.  It saps the motivation and ability right out of you, at least to me, it can.

Over in another thread that's tangent, but related to this, talk of the 20, 10 and so on year vet status of senior administration and so on is mentioned so I'll try laying this out in light of that, since I could be called a 20 year vet of mud games(and table top, mmo, console, computer, mobas, and so on).  Here we go, concise as I can try to make it.

If the system by which game changes are made in relation to players has been stagnant for over a decade, isn't it time it too had a valuation and refactoring?  And in relation to its players, Arm does seem to be using the same systems that 90's muds/games employed, and I'd know because I was there.  I played muds, staffed  muds, and was in the grey area in between on small and large scale, pay or free to play alike.

[Asmoth]

It's been days man... Most of the villagers have since dropped their pitchforks and proceeded to go home, grumbling, but done.

It seems to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're just regurgitating old statements and debates for the simple point of keeping the issue going. Yes, third party data tools, yes the math doesn't support it, yes we understand that as a social or business experiment that the staffs choice to do shit without having a PC consultation isn't something we could call the most updated or even perhaps proper way to go about it.

However, they stated the reason, due to not being able to get a consensus from players and move forward in a timely manner, which I 100 percent agree with.  Because if we hypothetically were given a thread about this move, it would just be people who love it and people who hate it going back and forth and nothing would be done while we sit here bickering, it's better to just pull off the bandaid fast and deal with the momentary pain.

But in my analogy, you are not having momentary pain, you are continuing to holler days after everyone else has moved on and forgotten the pain of that bandaid. Why?

In closing, we hear you, you are free to disagree till the end of days if you wish.  But all I ask is what you think you're going to accomplish by telling them over and over they are wrong?  They aren't going to reevaluate their whole decision based on you data, you're third party tools or you heartfelt remorse of losing full elementalists... They just aren't.

[burble]

Kryos, good for you for keeping to the topic instead of the usual skidmarks and drivel that make up the gdb.

You sound like an accomplished individual so I will state where we agree and where we disagree. But first, I also played muds in the early 90's and I did not spend the intervening years between U.Iowa and when I found this place again just playing games. I won't bore everyone with a list of my qualifications for posting; but, I am aware of the difference between a fantasy game and a real accomplishment (I am very satisfied with my life). When I play, it is only for fun.

So, where we agree. The core of your argument: it would have been nice to have the long term plans available for perusal and comment. Many are jumping to the conclusion that these changes are headed in a bad direction. That is an assumption.

Where we disagree: My first impression is the changes are headed in a good direction. I like more customization, not less. The class system seems archaic to me. I'm hopeful the game is heading towards packages of smaller sets of skills to build a character. Maybe even more than just 2 tiers (class, subguild) why not 3 or 4 or a skill point purchase system?

I think the magic system is horrible as it was. I'm hopeful that changes will allow characters to be as powerful as they were under the class system but with the ability to play with others more rather than just be an outcast. Maybe they'll get even more retro (I remember when the 4 elements were all the game had) and let elementalists be accepted by all and only sorcs and preservers are hated?

Again, assumptions but we start at a different place and I'm not upset or losing trust as you are. I'm hopeful.

As for the game statistics, my experience (I created a character after being away for awhile) is there are new people playing the game. I've had a couple of people  ask how to do simple commands (OOC). I've been happy to see them in the game. I hope they are having fun because they are the future. Not dinosaurs like you and me.

---and someone posted before I finished. Nothing added.