3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[Lizzie]

Other staff have already stated this, but I'm going to say it again:  The change was in no way at all reflective of how anyone has played an elementalist in the past. The comments regarding the role of the elementalist and the focus on magick as 'people' first is reflective of how we see the entire guild system. It is nothing to do with any individual or their play.

Does staff have the same opinion of warriors? I mean - warriors are combat-machines first - people second, afterall. Rangers are outdoor-hunting-monsters first, people second. Burglers are *defined* by the fact that they can/do break into apartments and spend a lot of time being sneaky. This is the focus -before- they are defined as people. Their personhood is secondary to their main guild.

Except when the player chooses to roleplay their characters as people first. So it IS about to do with our roleplay and really nothing at all to do with the guild system. Because the only time characters are NOT portrayed as their main guild first, and people second, is if they choose to roleplay that way.

[Armaddict]

They're repeating it because that's the statement that sold them on the change, Lizzie.

It doesn't have to make sense to us.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff won't say it, but I will: most magick PCs were just skills sets and not characters.

I'm happy for those who played the exceptions, but they just proved the rule.

[Asmoth]

I am with any change to any guild, except rangers, unless it's to add MORE shit to them.

Rangers are the perfect guild in my book.

[Armaddict]

There were plenty of tweaks to be made and things to be explored...

Drastic changes like this one would have been better off set aside and put into a massive rollout of a classless system, I think...instead of just cheapening, broadening, and (what I think will be) commonizing magick.

[Lizzie]

Staff won't say it, but I will: most magick PCs were just skills sets and not characters.

I'm happy for those who played the exceptions, but they just proved the rule.

ALL skill sets are just skill sets and not characters. That's what skill sets are: skill sets. Characters are people - whose players have assigned skill sets to them, so that they can flesh out their characters' character - imagine that!

[Brytta Léofa]

Staff, I dunno if y'all have thought about nesting the subguild selection for wigglers, but that subguild menu is getting out of control.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff won't say it, but I will: most magick PCs were just skills sets and not characters.

I'm happy for those who played the exceptions, but they just proved the rule.

ALL skill sets are just skill sets and not characters. That's what skill sets are: skill sets. Characters are people - whose players have assigned skill sets to them, so that they can flesh out their characters' character - imagine that!

It's problematic when karma-required guilds, which are both codedly powerful and also setting a higher standard of RP, are often boiled down in-game to "So, what have you branched yet?"

Personally I'm willing to give staff the benefit of the doubt and not subscribe to bad magicker roleplay as being the reason behind the change. I've enough good ones (and bad ones) to know as a character archetype they're about on par for the playerbase. I do think there are players who are (perhaps subconsciously) looking to rationalize the loss of the guilds in the terms of it being someone's fault, however.

I think the strongest justification for removing full Mage Guilds is that a character so wholly devoted to magick did not really fit in to the game world alongside other PCs, code-wise or theme-wise. They were too extreme, too outside the otherwise low-magick gritty fantasy.

[Molten Heart]

Can't wait to get guild sniffed as a gemmed elementalist.

Lord Oash asks, in sirihish: "So you're a Vivaduan, do you do anything else?"

[FantasyWriter]

I wonder, when the second to last elementalist dies, if the last will experience the Quickening and become the last full sorcerer.... MIND BLOWN.

[Asmoth]

Staff won't say it, but I will: most magick PCs were just skills sets and not characters.

I'm happy for those who played the exceptions, but they just proved the rule.

ALL skill sets are just skill sets and not characters. That's what skill sets are: skill sets. Characters are people - whose players have assigned skill sets to them, so that they can flesh out their characters' character - imagine that!

It's problematic when karma-required guilds, which are both codedly powerful and also setting a higher standard of RP, are often boiled down in-game to "So, what have you branched yet?"

Personally I'm willing to give staff the benefit of the doubt and not subscribe to bad magicker roleplay as being the reason behind the change. I've enough good ones (and bad ones) to know as a character archetype they're about on par for the playerbase. I do think there are players who are (perhaps subconsciously) looking to rationalize the loss of the guilds in the terms of it being someone's fault, however.

I think the strongest justification for removing full Mage Guilds is that a character so wholly devoted to magick did not really fit in to the game world alongside other PCs, code-wise or theme-wise. They were too extreme, too outside the otherwise low-magick gritty fantasy.

This is true, the first time I killed a Mekillot, with one spell use... I realized, holy shit, Magick is super powered.

But that also was sorta the cool thing, having that much power, but it was also a challenge because you'd have to think, "Should I really PK him with this...  He may have tons of time invested in that character and I'll kill him with one cast..."

I almost wish that death let the dead player observe a few minutes AFTER death, so you could tie up loose ends or watch folks cry over your corpse, or spit on it.  But meh.

[FantasyWriter]

I wonder, when the second to last elementalist dies, if the last will experience the Quickening and become the last full sorcerer Nilazi.... MIND BLOWN.

Even better.

[Ziel]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

[Pale Horse]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

[Bogre]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

Well, when you now compare warrior / whira travel to warrior / sorc movement...the latter is not really outclassing the former by much.

[Pale Horse]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

Well, when you now compare warrior / whira travel to warrior / sorc movement...the latter is not really outclassing the former by much.

I can how that can be.  As far as "raw ability" I would think that the warrior/whiran traveler is "better" for shades of "better," being linked to natural mana regen and spells which naturally compliment one another within an element.

Then again, a warrior/sorcerer of movement may not have the within-element complimentary spells, they do have the versatility of a "broader" set of spells related to movement.

I would argue that the "stronger" pairing is left up to the wants and opinions of the player of what makes a "stronger" combination.

[Ziel]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

Well, when you now compare warrior / whira travel to warrior / sorc movement...the latter is not really outclassing the former by much.

I can how that can be.  As far as "raw ability" I would think that the warrior/whiran traveler is "better" for shades of "better," being linked to natural mana regen and spells which naturally compliment one another within an element.

Then again, a warrior/sorcerer of movement may not have the within-element complimentary spells, they do have the versatility of a "broader" set of spells related to movement.

I would argue that the "stronger" pairing is left up to the wants and opinions of the player of what makes a "stronger" combination.

Bogre summed it up well. There's still a gap there I'm sure, but it seems like it might be much more narrow now while the social aspects of elementalists and sorcerers have remained the same.  It's not a huge deal, I'm just sayin'.

[Sphynx]

I'm very interested to see how these changes play out, I also love the splitting of elemental abilities up, as adding an "entry level magicker subguild" by way of the touched options allows people and staff the ability to explore elementalism without any game-breaking potential assuming I understand the nature of the "touched" bit, I am also a massive fan of the seemingly now instated ability to have a character that can fully contribute in meaningful ways to clans/plots and not feel inherently gimped, having the emergence of magickal talent as a potential plot twist if/when it makes sense or is desired, this could be the best change I've seen yet

[Asmoth]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

Well, when you now compare warrior / whira travel to warrior / sorc movement...the latter is not really outclassing the former by much.

I can how that can be.  As far as "raw ability" I would think that the warrior/whiran traveler is "better" for shades of "better," being linked to natural mana regen and spells which naturally compliment one another within an element.

Then again, a warrior/sorcerer of movement may not have the within-element complimentary spells, they do have the versatility of a "broader" set of spells related to movement.

I would argue that the "stronger" pairing is left up to the wants and opinions of the player of what makes a "stronger" combination.

Type HELP GATHER.

Sorcerers win, unlimited magick to just kill some plants... DIE PLANTS

[Molten Heart]

I like this change. Before, an elementalist's only real response to most situations that relied on code was to use magick. If they chose to not use their magick for RP purposes, such as denying their affliction as is mentioned in documentation, they were dooming themselves to suck at life and/or rely solely on their subguild. If they wanted to become "viable" and do more than play a flavor role, they'd have to practice - and be accused (sometimes rightly so) of just sitting around in isolation spamcasting away until they could wreck anything.

Now that their magickal abilities have been reduced and they have access to more diverse skillsets, they'll need to get out more in the open and interact with other players or the game world to reach similar levels of ability. That seems like a win to me.  As a side note, breaking up the four elements into aspects and the associated write ups for the guild descriptions add some neat lore.

While I am a little sad to see Elkros, Drov, and Nilaz go, it sounds a little like they're only being closed so the spells and guilds can be reworked and released again at a later time?  Keeping people from making characters with those skills would make an eventual change less jarring, perhaps.

I guess the only thing I don't like is that it seems like it makes elementalists better than the sorcerers in just about every way imaginable. Before, they had massive power that was balanced by the whole kill-on-sight order they had going. I don't know what their newer iteration is like in practice, but mixing magick with a mundane guild seemed like it still had a lot of potential for power that could still justify the thematic hatred of sorcery. But now (and I'm missing a lot I data so I could be wrong), sorcerers seem like they'd be much weaker than elementalists but still have the same steep social stigma against them.

Sorcerers are sub-guilds, in code, now.  Warrior/Sorcerer..Ranger/Sorcerer...I admit to not seeing how they are weaker.

Well, when you now compare warrior / whira travel to warrior / sorc movement...the latter is not really outclassing the former by much.

I disagree. I believe sorcerers get many more spells, considering there are many more movement spells than just whiran spells.

And then considering this recent update:

-Sorcerer subguilds have had their number of spells roughly doubled.

It'd seem sorcerers are potentially doing much better in the magick department than any single elementalist.

[Ziel]

Ooh, I hadn't noticed that update yet.  In light of all that, I get to redact that fourth paragraph and be pretty happy about everything. Thanks!

[Zoan]

Do we have to spec-app for the new magickey-stuff (like fire-touched or whatever)? Or are they choices during chargen if you have the karmabucks?

[Pale Horse]

Do we have to spec-app for the new magickey-stuff (like fire-touched or whatever)? Or are they choices during chargen if you have the karmabucks?

They're choices, if you've got the karma.

[najdorf]

great change, drop guild specific skill caps 1 lvl down and you ll have a perfect balance.

ranger: archery, weapon, stealth,etc.
warrior: combat & weapons

losing the master cap is a great trade off

[Warsong]

if you've got the karma.

Feels like this should be the subtitle of the game.

Armageddon: If You've Got Karma

And an increasingly souring experience if you don't.