3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[Warsong]

This seems like it's going to make magick a much more common thing.

I'm very pro-magick, I like seeing it in-game and I've probably had more experience with playing magicked up mundanes than most. I'm not the person on the GDB complaining about how powerful magick guilds were, or fearing for the relevance of my mundane. I think magick and psionics and all that is an interesting source of conflict, as both an inward and personal thing and as a point of outward conflict.

With that said, I'm concerned about what this is going to do to the line between magicker and mundane and the potential power spike associated with having a lot of karma.

The line between a magicker and a mundane was a decisive one and with it came a lot of clear cut expectations and consequences; social limits, coded power limits and all that kind of thing. You couldn't ever circumvent them without incurring some other manner of downside. These weren't grey areas where you could easily blow it off, either.

This was black and white, hard documented, hard coded.

My concern here is... almost everyone has one karma point.

It means everyone except the cutest of newbies is going to have the option of rocking some magick every single time they make a character. The coded limitation of having magick power was that you weren't capable of doing the things mundane characters could -- you couldn't get more than subguild level combat skills, you could never enjoy the range of craft options a merchant does and you could never benefit from the insurmountable freedoms of being a ranger.

Now? You are a mundane with all the competitive advantages it entails, except you're also going to have the benefits of buffs, debuffs, self-healing or direct damage.

I've had a number of PCs who walked around with magick enhancements and you go from being a powerful combatant to an unstoppable super soldier. With even a minor armor buff, my heavily armored and high end warrior was unassailable, even faced with warriors with superior skills -- advanced weapon skills? Is that a razor weapon? Gaze upon my shadow sword and weep, motherfuckers.

Magick on mundanes is incredibly powerful and with everyone having the option of having some flavor of magick, I can't imagine many people not taking full advantage.

This means more people playing magickers, more people being exposed to magick and a general degradation of the already faltering status quo.

As someone on the karma blacklist for what I can comfortably assume is forever, this also reinforces my view that there is almost no point in playing the game in a competitive manner without some karma. The difference in power scale between someone with extended subguild options and someone without them is already incredible. See: Warrior / Outdoorsman and Ranger / Rogue.

With every mundane now having the karma-based option to also throw down some fireballs, heal themselves or teleport around the game world, pure mundanes won't even have the relative safety net of rock-paper-scissors. There is no point in having a high bash skill to counter a Krathi when the Krathi can now block / parry you on equal terms and let you kill yourself on a damage shield.

I've seen what groups of magickers and mundanes can accomplish working in tandem and it's cool and fun to be a part of. This change seems like it's going to remove the mundanes from the equation and worse, it's going to leave people without non-mundane options without any real chance to compete with those who do.

I like magick, I want to claim cautious optimism, but I'm honestly just plain cautious.

This feels like a very important point. It looks a lot like a massive 'haves and have-nots' situation.

[boog]

I appreciate the way Vwest brought it up. In that they weren't a weenie about it.

The points are valid. I'm kinda excited to see. If it's too powerful, or it doesn't work, I have um, hope... it'll change?

[Kryos]

I refute the point, hard as I may, that initial reactions are invalid.  Staff removed 50% of the playable guild options in one fell swoop.  That 50% was karma gated, and polarizing.  Players do not need to experience any of these changes to know the impact on their enjoyment, even in the context of having 4 quartered and offered as semi-replacements.  You can never, ever again play a full magick user.  People know how that makes them feel.

Additionally, after the sorcerer guild was given the same treatment, players still post how unhappy they were about the changes now.  The exact same thing was done to a rarer guild and yet the sting remains.

As for how the new sub guilds themselves play out, sure, absent experiencing their impact in the game you can't have a fully realized picture.  But I think its safe to say that its a power bump in the overall game.

As for the rationalization of mages as people, I've yet to see any compelling counter argument against ESG/SG fleshing out mages as people.  

The fact that you had to use special application to ESG a mage only distorts and strikes out their frequency of use as a valid point.  You simply couldn't play the number of combinations you wished with any frequency, and had to meet criteria to even try.  Unlock the karma requirement or special app gating and I would speculate you'd see them balloon.

[Desertman]

I would have really liked to see the taking of a magicker sub-guild come coupled with the understanding it would forever limit your maximum potential in your main guild.

As it stands, if you can be a max warrior who also throws fireballs, I get the feeling a lot of people are going to opt for that, instead of just a vanilla max warrior.

However, if being able to throw fireballs came with the stipulation you will only ever get to 60% of your potential as a full warrior, well, at least it leaves warriors with a place in the world.

[Warsong]

However, the idea of these roles having a "cost" to playing them is accurate in one sense. By picking a magicker guild, you're giving up a way your character could be versatile in another manner. Bearing in mind that no guild is completely good at everything, any guild+magicker_subguild combination is going to have weaknesses. That will at least partly blunt the concern of magickers becoming overpowered, and will be addressed further during the guild revamp.

Weaknesses in what way?  Because I'm guessing that exploiting said weaknesses will get you slapped with bad notes for abusing knowledge of the game, and the promise of weaknesses to them points out the weaknesses of the mundane more than it did before: A true mundane is now truly at a disadvantage, aside from the versatility of making their own crafts.  There is magick in place to do pretty much any ESG better, which makes the subguild combinations very heavily weighted, as far as advantage, towards the magickal.  Likewise, there is the promise of monitoring the play 'like a hawk' to make sure this goes well...the monitoring going on as is isn't that great, but we're being told to settle down because of the pledge of -more- attention on it, when attention seems to already be spread thin as it is.  

I'm a little confused at what the -actual- accomplishment made here was.  Make magick ambush us harder, when it was one of the more controversial items on whether players wanted it or didn't?

Edit:  Holy shit, 7 replies I haven't read yet.

A warrior that takes a magick subguild isn't going to be able to:
- ride hands-free or trample anything
- have direction sense
- craft anything beyond cooking
- use stealth skills
- scan
- backstab or sap
- and more...

Whereas a warrior that takes a mundane subguild will be able to do one or more of these things. There are similar issues with picking a guild + a magick subguild. There is a trade-off in ways that there wasn't previously. And yet the power of a magicker is still maintained. Each aspect was designed with a theme in mind as well as playability. Yes, magickers are powerful, but fully mundane characters are still going to be desirable to play in their own right.

I feel like any two useful spells will be vastly superior to anything you could've got from a mundane subguild. I mean, just imagine something like an assassin with the strength spell. That alone. That one thing is so mindblowingly better than anything else you could've gotten that I'm scared to even think of the results. And that magick subguild probably gets even more than that.

[Pale Horse]

However, the idea of these roles having a "cost" to playing them is accurate in one sense. By picking a magicker guild, you're giving up a way your character could be versatile in another manner. Bearing in mind that no guild is completely good at everything, any guild+magicker_subguild combination is going to have weaknesses. That will at least partly blunt the concern of magickers becoming overpowered, and will be addressed further during the guild revamp.

Weaknesses in what way?  Because I'm guessing that exploiting said weaknesses will get you slapped with bad notes for abusing knowledge of the game, and the promise of weaknesses to them points out the weaknesses of the mundane more than it did before: A true mundane is now truly at a disadvantage, aside from the versatility of making their own crafts.  There is magick in place to do pretty much any ESG better, which makes the subguild combinations very heavily weighted, as far as advantage, towards the magickal.  Likewise, there is the promise of monitoring the play 'like a hawk' to make sure this goes well...the monitoring going on as is isn't that great, but we're being told to settle down because of the pledge of -more- attention on it, when attention seems to already be spread thin as it is.  

I'm a little confused at what the -actual- accomplishment made here was.  Make magick ambush us harder, when it was one of the more controversial items on whether players wanted it or didn't?

Edit:  Holy shit, 7 replies I haven't read yet.

A warrior that takes a magick subguild isn't going to be able to:
- ride hands-free or trample anything
- have direction sense
- craft anything beyond cooking
- use stealth skills
- scan
- backstab or sap
- and more...

Whereas a warrior that takes a mundane subguild will be able to do one or more of these things. There are similar issues with picking a guild + a magick subguild. There is a trade-off in ways that there wasn't previously. And yet the power of a magicker is still maintained. Each aspect was designed with a theme in mind as well as playability. Yes, magickers are powerful, but fully mundane characters are still going to be desirable to play in their own right.

I feel like any two useful spells will be vastly superior to anything you could've got from a mundane subguild. I mean, just imagine something like an assassin with the strength spell. That alone. That one thing is so mindblowingly better than anything else you could've gotten that I'm scared to even think of the results. And that magick subguild probably gets even more than that.

Maybe I'm getting tired and not understanding, but...to what point, though?

Ranger is able to fly.  They fly..they shoot animals, they skin them, they sell their hide, ad nauseum.  They do this "better" than other Rangers.  People find out they're a gicker.  If they're not Gemmed, they're now banned from the one playable city-state left unless they take the gem.  Other than that...they fly, shoot things, ad nauseum.

I am worried that most of this topic is surrounding the effects magick will have on the portion of the player base that plays only for, and believes the game is mainly, about combat.  If that's the enjoyment you get out of the game, that's fine.  Go be the flying Ranger who shoots things.  Lord over the ground-stricken Rangers who aren't as cool as you who can fly.  Laugh at their attempts to top you, because you can fly.

Until you get bored of flying, shooting things, skinning them and selling them to the one or two hide-sellers open to you.  You can't go anywhere else because "Ranger who can fly," filthy gicker isn't welcome here.

If you're the Ranger who can fly that only likes to explore far and away places and not really interact with the player base too much...where's the harm?  To everyone else, you're flying Ranger isn't even around to see and become upset about.

[Warsong]

You can't imagine why people might want strength buffs for their assassins, healing spells for their warriors, etc.? I was responding to Nergal's point about how taking a magick subguild makes you give up whatever mundane subguild you could have gotten instead, and I was opining that the magick subguilds look like they'll be so much better than any mundane subguild that this sacrifice is completely inconsequential.

[Kryos]

You can't imagine why people might want strength buffs for their assassins, healing spells for their warriors, etc.? I was responding to Nergal's point about how taking a magick subguild makes you give up whatever mundane subguild you could have gotten instead, and I was opining that the magick subguilds look like they'll be so much better than any mundane subguild that this sacrifice is completely inconsequential.

In this respect, I must for the moment say I agree with Nergal though about the subguilds themselves, and that aspect alone.  The distribution, number, and affect of spells offered in any of these subguilds is largely unknown though I bet someone of wit could put more than 50% of it right just at a glance.  Until they are used, we really don't know what the shape of it is.

Whats troublesome to me aside from matters discussed elsewhere(other threads), would be if said flying ranger from Pale Horse's example was an awesome role player who now, because the love flying rangers, has their footprint removed from most of the player base.  Never again will there be a full fledged <mage>.  The first incarnation of this met with heavy resistance, and no changes to assuage that outrage were made.  Some metrics were stated by staff that are biased, and inaccurate due to limiting circumstances.

There's more to it than that, of course, but I'm actually having a great deal of trouble articulating it.

[Pale Horse]

You can't imagine why people might want strength buffs for their assassins, healing spells for their warriors, etc.? I was responding to Nergal's point about how taking a magick subguild makes you give up whatever mundane subguild you could have gotten instead, and I was opining that the magick subguilds look like they'll be so much better than any mundane subguild that this sacrifice is completely inconsequential.

I get that, I do.  I can understand the attraction.

I'm more lamenting that it feels, to me, like a lot of the antipathy to these changes is coming from those who see meta-gaming as the first and most important aspect or the only aspect for why guild and sub-guild combinations are chosen.  That it must be "leet skills better than anyone else" for every role.

I get that for some, playing the "best" skill-set for a Ranger/Warrior/Merchant, etc, is where the fun comes from.  I'm just worried that this thread feels dominated by that sentiment and is unfairly represented as a majority opinion.

..I don't know, I'm thinking rather fuzzily, right now.  I should go to bed.  My pessimism is getting the best of me.

[Dar]

Basically put. Remove all subguilds and the main mundane guilds are still self sufficient. They subguilds add a little bit to them, but they dont 'round them out'. They are 'already' rounded out pretty damn well. Then you add magick to their commonplace use.  

Yes. Of course this is of little consequence to the social play. An aide, or just someone very city bound will not want spellcasting. Even if he or she is capable of it, they'll probably "never" use it, unless RP takes them that way.  This is in part why I dont like the sorcerer subguilds. Because they were just too weak compared to massive absolute ostracism.  Though I understand they got heavily strengthened now? I dunno now.

One of my main problems with this change is that this robs the magickers from a "need" for mundanes. They dont need mundanes. They 'are' mundanes with a bit of gickery. Problem is that a 'little' bit of gickery is enough to propel them to unparalleled amount of power. Enough that let's say 3 ruk mundanes (2 karma tops) can mow down pretty much ... the entirety of current Allanaki military PC mundane force. Add to it the fact that they are self sufficient. They're not reliant on any cities and so on.

Full Elementalists were complicated. It was hard to create a cohesive group out of them, because each player was playing out their element in some fashion. Their goals and aspirations were gradually otherwordly. There was a lot less 'empire building' ambition amongst them. At best, their most common ambition was "Create haven for other mages in some hard to reach spot, so nobody could throw stones at us!"   Now though, things change. The mages are a lot more human now. They're basically mundanes with superpowers. They're basically ... breeds. Which means it is a lot easier for them to unite, a lot easier for them to plot, and arrange contacts, and so on, and so on. Eventually, via charisma, ability, and excellence ... there "will" be a group that is grudgedly accepted by some society. Luirs outpost and Red Storm. Some Tribes.

Keep in mind. Red Fangs were mostly accepted in many areas. Allanak and Tuluk were never their 'friends' but they dealt and negotiated with them as often as any other civilization spot.  

All I'm saying is that this change, will actually make it "easier" for these freaky mundanes to be accepted, not harder. It'll be up to players to not allow this to happen. It wont be easy and will cause people to die due to their principles. A lot more often then it used to happen with 'full' mages.

[LauraMars]

I would have really liked to see the taking of a magicker sub-guild come coupled with the understanding it would forever limit your maximum potential in your main guild.

As it stands, if you can be a max warrior who also throws fireballs, I get the feeling a lot of people are going to opt for that, instead of just a vanilla max warrior.

However, if being able to throw fireballs came with the stipulation you will only ever get to 60% of your potential as a full warrior, well, at least it leaves warriors with a place in the world.

You need six karma to play a mage that can (probably) chuck fireballs. Or three karma to special app one. I don't think they'll be all that common.

[Jingo]

I was hoping there was a way for a magicker to pick two of the aspects and a subguild. Seems like I was wrong.

I'm a bit more skeptical of the change now.

[Warsong]

I would have really liked to see the taking of a magicker sub-guild come coupled with the understanding it would forever limit your maximum potential in your main guild.

As it stands, if you can be a max warrior who also throws fireballs, I get the feeling a lot of people are going to opt for that, instead of just a vanilla max warrior.

However, if being able to throw fireballs came with the stipulation you will only ever get to 60% of your potential as a full warrior, well, at least it leaves warriors with a place in the world.

You need six karma to play a mage that can (probably) chuck fireballs. Or three karma to special app one. I don't think they'll be all that common.

Well, you need two karma to play a warrior that can (probably) cast armor and stoneskin, and then some. I don't think he was talking specifically about fireballs. In fact, I think casting fireballs seems like something that a warrior wouldn't be so concerned with, being the expert on weapons and attack-based skills.

[Armaddict]

I'm more lamenting that it feels, to me, like a lot of the antipathy to these changes is coming from those who see meta-gaming as the first and most important aspect or the only aspect for why guild and sub-guild combinations are chosen.  That it must be "leet skills better than anyone else" for every role.

FYI...I was not speaking for myself in terms of combat.  I was very specifically referencing the choices of others in regards to this, since the GDB has been filled up with all sorts of skill-oriented and maximum-efficacy conversation for the past while.  I know it's becoming more and more of a prevalent mindset.

-My- part of it comes in with relying on that, knowing that I'm going to be in the position of having to interact with magick more regularly.  Not less.  The arguments made by me were based on making magecraft 'too good to pass up', by making it both subguild only and having no -real- drawback to selecting it, now that the true drawback of its selection was removed (i.e. I expect the social stigma to fade, and for magick to be hidden more commonly and easily).

All I'm saying is that this change, will actually make it "easier" for these freaky mundanes to be accepted, not harder. It'll be up to players to not allow this to happen. It wont be easy and will cause people to die due to their principles. A lot more often then it used to happen with 'full' mages.

And this was along the lines of what I originally asserted, which was engaged, which turned into debate on that topic.

To everyone else, you're flying Ranger isn't even around to see and become upset about.

So what you're asserting, then, is that with this change, mages will become -less- visible, and not more?

[LauraMars]

Well, you need two karma to play a warrior that can (probably) cast armor and stoneskin, and then some. I don't think he was talking specifically about fireballs.

good point

But I still don't think mundane classes are going to be dominated by magickal subguilds to the point of ridiculousness, simply by virtue of them being a) as socially ostracized and outlawed as ever and b) still being behind a karma barrier.

[Inks]

Rogues are extremely attractive now.

[Asmoth]

I'm more lamenting that it feels, to me, like a lot of the antipathy to these changes is coming from those who see meta-gaming as the first and most important aspect or the only aspect for why guild and sub-guild combinations are chosen.  That it must be "leet skills better than anyone else" for every role.

FYI...I was not speaking for myself in terms of combat.  I was very specifically referencing the choices of others in regards to this, since the GDB has been filled up with all sorts of skill-oriented and maximum-efficacy conversation for the past while.  I know it's becoming more and more of a prevalent mindset.

-My- part of it comes in with relying on that, knowing that I'm going to be in the position of having to interact with magick more regularly.  Not less.  The arguments made by me were based on making magecraft 'too good to pass up', by making it both subguild only and having no -real- drawback to selecting it, now that the true drawback of its selection was removed (i.e. I expect the social stigma to fade, and for magick to be hidden more commonly and easily).

All I'm saying is that this change, will actually make it "easier" for these freaky mundanes to be accepted, not harder. It'll be up to players to not allow this to happen. It wont be easy and will cause people to die due to their principles. A lot more often then it used to happen with 'full' mages.

And this was along the lines of what I originally asserted, which was engaged, which turned into debate on that topic.

To everyone else, you're flying Ranger isn't even around to see and become upset about.

So what you're asserting, then, is that with this change, mages will become -less- visible, and not more?

Well I would assume that a flying ranger would be VERY hard to see....

[Warsong]

Well, you need two karma to play a warrior that can (probably) cast armor and stoneskin, and then some. I don't think he was talking specifically about fireballs.

good point

But I still don't think mundane classes are going to be dominated by magickal subguilds to the point of ridiculousness, simply by virtue of them being a) as socially ostracized and outlawed as ever and b) still being behind a karma barrier.

I don't know how things were in the past, but right now, there's quite a few gemmed around. And that's when they can't really join clans or do much besides be wizards. I think there's going to be less gemmed, or at least probably not more than now, but for a long while every clan will have secret magickers in them because these can no longer be sussed out, and can now be useful irrespective of their magick. That's actually the part that I don't mind, but I feel like giving them the full power of any mundane guild seems like it'll just be too good.

[BadSkeelz]

As soon as those useful mundane-guild characters cast a spell, they'll still have to deal with the fact that they're an outed magicker, at least to their clan if not the world at large.

We'll only see rogue magickers in GMH and other crews if their leaders allow it.

[Asmoth]

We'll only see rogue magickers in GMH and other crews if their leaders allow it.

Which I hope they do either openly or covertly.

This you can only work for Oash and some unnamed GMH is bullshit. (My opinion).

[Iiyola]

I was hoping there was a way for a magicker to pick two of the aspects and a subguild. Seems like I was wrong.

I'm a bit more skeptical of the change now.

Yeah I realized that not too long ago as well. Hrm.

[Warsong]

As soon as those useful mundane-guild characters cast a spell, they'll still have to deal with the fact that they're an outed magicker, at least to their clan if not the world at large.

We'll only see rogue magickers in GMH and other crews if their leaders allow it.

Well, they can just refrain from casting spells in front of others. It should be rather trivial to maintain secrecy in that regard, ensuring that the only way to get found out is if you're spied on by someone unseen while you use magick, or are detected with magick effects by the rather few people who can do that. If you have any degree of privacy at all and do any of your work alone, such as a hunter might, it should be easy. Since they get to be full-blown mundanes, they won't rely on these spells and can simply use them in situations where it matters a lot -- like PKing.

It should be way, way easier for magickers to remain rogue now that magick isn't the source of their power and usefulness, but rather an augmentation to it. I like that that's the case, but I worry that it'll dwarf regular mundanes if magick ones become common. The "wizard" model had far less overlap. I'm more than a little apprehensive about making magickers objectively superior to mundanes in literally every conceivable way. They're just simply better characters at everything, making me feel so much less enthusiastic about my non-magickal character.

[Asmoth]

Fuck my life for looking one more time before I went to bed...

I think you have to realize that this change isn't solely for pk purposes.

All a good majority are worried about is, (paraphrasing) The magick warrior can use magick to kill me!

Not everyone who plays the game is trying to murder you.  I personally will, if capable play a flying ranger because that will be fun as shit.  Not because I wanna drop stones on your regular mundane head.

Do we need to be prepared for overblown twinkdom, yup, but have some faith that everyone isn't sceming to kidder you everytime they come across you.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm more than a little apprehensive about making magickers objectively superior to mundanes in literally every conceivable way. They're just simply better characters at everything, making me feel so much less enthusiastic about my non-magickal character.

Having no one ever want to talk to me ever again seems like a good trade for that, in my opinion.

[little chicken woman]

Hold your horses. The new subguilds still have a couple of bugs in 'em.