3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[BadSkeelz]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Making mages real people, combat-wise (I suck at fighting more than Amos does who is better than Talia who is worse than Malik) makes more sense than ALL MAGES BEING ON AN EQUAL FOOTING, ALWAYS AND FOREVER.

[shadeoux]

With regard to the gemmed: Removing their appeal as a place to develop PCs into solely magickal characters was foreseen. Removing the attraction of Temples and the Quarter as a place to solely develop skills gives us space to possibly consider how we can make the role more nuanced without focusing on mechanical magickal power.

Please reconsider leaving the full elementalists implemented for PC's to play in addition to the Subguild elementalists. I like the new additions to the Subguilds, but IMHO I think it would be more effective to have full elementalists too.

[Asmoth]

Every post you make convinces me more and more this change was a bad idea.

I am here to serve you heh.  Don't be so cynical.  I loved the Sorcerer changes and recommended them on an old account and look it, they did it.

[Erythil]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

To be fair, you could already make a self-buffing warrior sorcerer.

And I've heard of maybe one of those ever.

[nauta]

Success will be determined by how many threads dedicated to magick and its place in Zalanthas emerge each month.

I'm excited for the changes -- especially the documentation/help file updates about the qualia of magickal casting (inter alia). 

(Also, no discussion about 'draw butterknife es'??)

[Rathustra]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

I don't know how serious you're being, but we will be watching these changes like hawks (silt). We are also looking at adjusting how we grant special applications for mage roles outside of a player's karma range. Having more graduation between magicker type gives us a way to evaluate whether or not to grant applications for the strongest (most karma-heavy) subguilds for a given element. This is part of the reason for introducing the 'touched' subguilds. They present an entry-level subguild for magickal RP for newer players, or people wanting to step up from Ruk/Vivaduan subguilds to Krathi/Whiran ones.

[BadSkeelz]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

To be fair, you could already make a self-buffing warrior sorcerer.

And I've heard of maybe one of those ever.

While the spell lists were split up, the karma remained at 8. I was relieved at the time, because 4 Karma Sorcerer Subguilds (as they were originally marketed) sounded like a terrible idea. Keeping the Karma high kept their numbers low. This change, with a larger spread of magickers across fully fleshed guilds - is I think going to bring more mages in to the game. They might not be as strong, but they'll still be mages.

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

I don't know how serious you're being, but we will be watching these changes like hawks (silt). We are also looking at adjusting how we grant special applications for mage roles outside of a player's karma range. Having more graduation between magicker type gives us a way to evaluate whether or not to grant applications for the strongest (most karma-heavy) subguilds for a given element. This is part of the reason for introducing the 'touched' subguilds. They present an entry-level subguild for magickal RP for newer players, or people wanting to step up from Ruk/Vivaduan subguilds to Krathi/Whiran ones.

Can't you just let me worship Khorne in game and grant some magickal immunity or something.


Also the "you" was not you, Rath. Just in case you thought it was. Sorry.

[seidhr]

...While I'll lose absolutely no sleep over seeing less gemmed around, we do have an entire quarter of Allanak devoted to them and it'll be kinda weird if that ends up being empty...

Quarter does not mean 1/4th of the town in this case, it's just a part of the city.  The "built out" parts of Allanak are most certainly not to scale.  It's like going to New Orleans and talking about "The French Quarter" being an entire quarter of the city (not the case).  The word "district" would probably be more appropriate in most respects, but it is what it is.

[Erythil]

I will agree with BS partially in that I'd rather have seen additional anti-magic tools than a total across the board removal of some of the impossible-to-counter magic powers.

[CodeMaster]

Amazing and very interesting.  Thanks staff!

[BadSkeelz]

I will agree with BS partially in that I'd rather have seen additional anti-magic tools than a total across the board removal of some of the impossible-to-counter magic powers.

I don't think we've lost too many of those, Erythil. We've lost some of the more powerful synergistic combinations inherent in the old Guilds... but if you want to set someone on fire or turn their blood in to poison I think you still have the means. And you have a much more viable Guild chassis to put it on.

You just can't be the great Supporter, and Hexer, and scout all in the same PC anymore. At least, you can't accomplish everything strictly through magick.

[Erythil]

I will agree with BS partially in that I'd rather have seen additional anti-magic tools than a total across the board removal of some of the impossible-to-counter magic powers.

I don't think we've lost too many of those, Erythil. We've lost some of the more powerful synergistic combinations inherent in the old Guilds... but if you want to set someone on fire or turn their blood in to poison I think you still have the means. And you have a much more viable Guild chassis to put it on.

You just can't be the great Supporter, and Hexer, and scout all in the same PC anymore. At least, you can't accomplish everything strictly through magick.

Drovians and nilazi had some very very powerful options unique to them exclusively.

And I don't see why a strong mage who trades mundane abilities for his prowess is so bad.  No one seems to think it's silly that merchants can be good at making literally everything that exists.

[Dar]

Ummh. Actually, I honestly imagine there will be an 'increase' in gemmed population. To a point of ridiculous.

A legitimized group of mundanes with super powers? A group of people who are greater in number then militia, have no restriction on sparring/combat abilities and can do shit like ... illusion aspect, or guile aspect?  Oash is going to become the scariest house ever. I really hope the political backlash for employing mages is intensified for them. Especially if they suddenly get Elites AND magickers at the same time.


Guys? This didnt make magickers weaker. This made them insanely more powerful.

A templar has political/social restricitons on sparring and improving his combat. Not counting spells, a skilled ranger could kill a Templar one on one, no sweat. Now ... you'll have a skilled ranger/warrior AND spells.  

Assassin+Illusion:Scaaaaaary.

[BadSkeelz]

I will agree with BS partially in that I'd rather have seen additional anti-magic tools than a total across the board removal of some of the impossible-to-counter magic powers.

I don't think we've lost too many of those, Erythil. We've lost some of the more powerful synergistic combinations inherent in the old Guilds... but if you want to set someone on fire or turn their blood in to poison I think you still have the means. And you have a much more viable Guild chassis to put it on.

You just can't be the great Supporter, and Hexer, and scout all in the same PC anymore. At least, you can't accomplish everything strictly through magick.

Drovians and nilazi had some very very powerful options unique to them exclusively.

And I don't see why a strong mage who trades mundane abilities for his prowess is so bad.  No one seems to think it's silly that merchants can be good at making literally everything that exists.

I do. I'd much rather play a Ranger/Mastercrafter sub (which is now way easier to do, woo hoo!) than some merchant who's life is defined by crafting and who is totally helpless outside of a workshop.

In that respect this change is a good one as it forces people to round out their characters. I'm just not really looking forward to a bunch of magick getting slung around, however minor.

[Norcal]

I don't know about this.  It's a change and that always makes me nervous. I like that elementalists can have guilds like everyone else. However I hate to see what were some fun combinations gone forever. This system defiantly uses magick as a way to add flavor to the main guilds. It could make some of them very powerful, perhaps over powered.

Is there going to be some kind of review period and player feedback mechanism to adjust things if necessary?

[hyzhenhok]

Honestly, I hope we see the return of full magicker guilds (or at least 2/3rds full magicker guilds that can be made a full magicker with the right subguild) with the main guild revamp. This feels like removing all of the caster classes from a Dark Sun PHB and replacing them with mutually exclusive level 1 feats. It's a little too radical for my tastes.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

I don't know how serious you're being, but we will be watching these changes like hawks (silt).

I totally misread the end of this line, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkWHaiNXbjQ immediately came to mind. XD (nsfw language)

My initial thought of this change was resistance, and trying to convince myself to be up in arms. (I think mainly because I spent the last week brainstorming my first Nilazi) An hour or so later, and I think I absolutely love this change. I can't really put into coherent words why I love it, but I just feel it will be great for the game as a whole, as well as adding more options and variety for play. (In my perfect world, a classless, point buy system would come to Armageddon, but I know it never will.)

For those worried about sniffing, or clans suddenly going into overdrive to pick out potential gicks, because of the change - report that kind of activity. Absolutely report it, because it is poor play, and should be brought to light.

Looking at the cantrips help file; will these be emote only options for players, or is the risk of being caught something that might be tied to a fighter krathi (touched or aspect) suddenly frying Lord Templar Hardnose's robes with a random belch?

[Rathustra]

Every post you make convinces me more and more that this change was a bad idea.

I don't know how serious you're being, but we will be watching these changes like hawks (silt).

I totally misread the end of this line, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkWHaiNXbjQ immediately came to mind. XD (nsfw language)

My initial thought of this change was resistance, and trying to convince myself to be up in arms. (I think mainly because I spent the last week brainstorming my first Nilazi) An hour or so later, and I think I absolutely love this change. I can't really put into coherent words why I love it, but I just feel it will be great for the game as a whole, as well as adding more options and variety for play. (In my perfect world, a classless, point buy system would come to Armageddon, but I know it never will.)

For those worried about sniffing, or clans suddenly going into overdrive to pick out potential gicks, because of the change - report that kind of activity. Absolutely report it, because it is poor play, and should be brought to light.

Looking at the cantrips help file; will these be emote only options for players, or is the risk of being caught something that might be tied to a fighter krathi (touched or aspect) suddenly frying Lord Templar Hardnose's robes with a random belch?

Cantrips will continue to operate as they always have. Staff animation of cantrips is done after assessing the manifestation status and degree of control we consider a magicker to have. Usually we get this information from reports, biographies and previous observation of your PC.

[Lizzie]

Ummh. Actually, I honestly imagine there will be an 'increase' in gemmed population. To a point of ridiculous.

A legitimized group of mundanes with super powers? A group of people who are greater in number then militia, have no restriction on sparring/combat abilities and can do shit like ... illusion aspect, or guile aspect?  Oash is going to become the scariest house ever. I really hope the political backlash for employing mages is intensified for them. Especially if they suddenly get Elites AND magickers at the same time.


Guys? This didnt make magickers weaker. This made them insanely more powerful.

A templar has political/social restricitons on sparring and improving his combat. Not counting spells, a skilled ranger could kill a Templar one on one, no sweat. Now ... you'll have a skilled ranger/warrior AND spells.  

Assassin+Illusion:Scaaaaaary.

Not really. In fact, not at all. As soon as you're seen casting a spell you're outted and either hunted down/PKed or gemmed/tolerated only in limited parts of the game world.  That's exactly as it was with the full spell list. Except - now - you don't even get the benefit of the full spell list for all the risk you take.

Also - very very disappointing, I checked my guild options, and now realize all I see are the non-karma options. I have plenty of karma but none of it grants me anything on the main guild list anymore. This has 5 karma, that has 4 karma, the other has 6 karma, I have no idea what's available to me anymore without having to special app.

[Rathustra]

Ummh. Actually, I honestly imagine there will be an 'increase' in gemmed population. To a point of ridiculous.

A legitimized group of mundanes with super powers? A group of people who are greater in number then militia, have no restriction on sparring/combat abilities and can do shit like ... illusion aspect, or guile aspect?  Oash is going to become the scariest house ever. I really hope the political backlash for employing mages is intensified for them. Especially if they suddenly get Elites AND magickers at the same time.


Guys? This didnt make magickers weaker. This made them insanely more powerful.

A templar has political/social restricitons on sparring and improving his combat. Not counting spells, a skilled ranger could kill a Templar one on one, no sweat. Now ... you'll have a skilled ranger/warrior AND spells.  

Assassin+Illusion:Scaaaaaary.

Not really. In fact, not at all. As soon as you're seen casting a spell you're outted and either hunted down/PKed or gemmed/tolerated only in limited parts of the game world.  That's exactly as it was with the full spell list. Except - now - you don't even get the benefit of the full spell list for all the risk you take.

Also - very very disappointing, I checked my guild options, and now realize all I see are the non-karma options. I have plenty of karma but none of it grants me anything on the main guild list anymore. This has 5 karma, that has 4 karma, the other has 6 karma, I have no idea what's available to me anymore without having to special app.

What are the new karma levels?
1 karma:

• Water touched.
• Stone touched.

2 karma:

• Rukkian aspect of protection.
• Rukkian aspect of creation.
• Rukkian aspect of empowerment.
• Vivaduan aspect of healing.
• Vivaduan aspect of corruption.
• Vivaduan aspect of creation.

3 karma:

• Fire touched.
• Wind touched.

4 karma:

• Krathi aspect of guile.
• Whiran aspect of tempest.

5 karma:

• Krathi aspect of agony.
• Whiran aspect of travel.

6 karma

• Whiran aspect of illusion.
• Krathi aspect of devastation.

FAQ

[Warsong]

...While I'll lose absolutely no sleep over seeing less gemmed around, we do have an entire quarter of Allanak devoted to them and it'll be kinda weird if that ends up being empty...

Quarter does not mean 1/4th of the town in this case, it's just a part of the city.  The "built out" parts of Allanak are most certainly not to scale.  It's like going to New Orleans and talking about "The French Quarter" being an entire quarter of the city (not the case).  The word "district" would probably be more appropriate in most respects, but it is what it is.

That's what I meant. It s called a "quarter," though. It's a whole sector of the city, with its own apartments and shops and all kinds of stuff. I can't see why anybody would want to play a temple mage with this change, or at least not enough to make such a large portion of the city feel like it has any purpose. They'll play rogues mages, or they'll play ranger-with-buffs and roam around the world.

[Jingo]

I'm mostly happy with this. But like most I think I'm going to miss the quasi elements largely for thematic reasons.

Seriously. This has been long overdue.

Questions for staff:

Will there be support for characters that want to go "all the way" and become the invokers of armageddon? I.E. mages that focus entirely gaining power through magick? We used to have something like that before sorcerers were split up.

Are there any planned changes for mage progression? I'm hoping for something more interesting than casting spells ad nauseum.

Psionicist subguilds? (PSI INTERCEPT 2016)

[Asmoth]

Are there any planned changes for mage progression? I'm hoping for something more interesting than casting spells ad nauseum.

This, is the only thing I dislike about mages.  If you want to learn X spell that's three spells down, you gotta grind through three spells just to get X spell.

I never really bitch too loudly about it though, because for the life of me, I couldn't think of a better way to improve it than the grind.

Maybe if magick was a skill in general from use, instead of per spell.  But even that, would probably take a whole re-write of code.

[Rathustra]

I'm mostly happy with this. But like most I think I'm going to miss the quasi elements largely for thematic reasons.

Seriously. This has been long overdue.

Questions for staff:

Will there be support for characters that want to go "all the way" and become the invokers of armageddon? I.E. mages that focus entirely gaining power through magick? We used to have something like that before sorcerers were split up.

This is currently not something we are considering. The closest thing we have to this now are the sorcerer subguilds. In which case this answer ties into my answer to your next question:

Are there any planned changes for mage progression? I'm hoping for something more interesting than casting spells ad nauseum.

There are no planned changes in this area at the moment.

Psionicist subguilds? (PSI INTERCEPT 2016)

We are going through every guild as part of the guild renovation project.



I'm off to bed now, so I am handing you over to any other member of staff involved in the project to answer specific questions - or any member of staff who wants to quote the FAQ or help files. Night all!