Mages and purpose...

[Asmoth]

it would be nice if there was more than House Oash and outright evil cabals for a magicker to participate in.

I'm for bringing back the council of mages and for having mages in the arm.

(I know that neither will really probably ever happen, but it's nice to dream.)

But for a serious note, I feel mages are often only watched to ensure they aren't twinking or outright murdering people on whims, but other than that, they are the forgotten bastards of the game until they do something horrible. (Which may be due to boredom and or nothing to strive towards) Thoughts?

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think a mage's purpose should be all that different form anyone else's They're still a person with desires, dreams, aspirations. Some might have a purpose affiliated with their magick, some might not. Some might not have a purpose at all.

I liked the Council simply because it allowed my first magicker to get into some shit FAST. I'm not sure if it did the game any favors though.

[Asmoth]

there is a disconnect with the way the gemmer temples are setup versus the reality of the game.

I'm supposed to look towards my temple and elders for training and knowledge, yet that means either bugging staff with questions about magick or hoping there is someone who's actually been around for more than a month and knows what they are talking about heh. Mages die quite often if you didn't know...

I feel that there should at the bare minimum be some type of clan structure for mages of X type and possibly a board on the gdb to coordinate that any other established group has. This way I can coordinate with other players.  They could even have the Templars as a member of the board for "supervision".

I personally can't see any downside to having clan or board organization to mages.  Unless you see roleplaying with others of your ilk to be a downside.

[CodeMaster]

Interesting ideas but make sure you distinguish between gemmed mages and rogue mages, or these threads tend to go off the rails.

[Asmoth]

Interesting ideas but make sure you distinguish between gemmed mages and rogue mages, or these threads tend to go off the rails.

Gemmed, as it is an ungemmed could simply join any job as is unless they walk around with their magick hanging out.

[Delirium]

A lack of purpose isn't something that's limited to gemmed, but it becomes far more starkly illuminated when you're the equivalent of a DPS glass cannon with nothing to do.

Tek forbid you be able to accomplish something with your phenomenal cosmic powers, so you either kill yourself trying to have fun by taking crazy risks, or waste away into storage.

Sounds like any long-lived character really, just that you reach that ceiling a whole lot sooner on average.

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

.... that solution just doesn't seem to fly these days.

[Armaddict]

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

I don't have any problems with them pursuing magickal plots.  The problem is that there aren't a lot of those that are self-sustaining; they seem to require external intervention, i.e. Staff run plots, or templars going out of their way to find something for them to do.  This is what led to the dreaded 'Magicker Special Forces'; some players try to create content for people, and end up creating things that upset everyone else.

I'm not saying don't do that, either, but it's why I keep bring up the rogue mages.  I am of the opinion that there needs to be both benefits and drawbacks to taking the gem, outright.  I want there to be rogue mages.  I want gemmed and ungemmed to be in a hidden war with each other.  I want gemmed and ungemmed krathis to have unsteady relations when it comes to drovians, but otherwise be at odds with each other.  I want them to be at each other's throats, but afraid to act in public because the stir of the populace would demand templar involvement.

I'm not saying it's the only solution, I just think it's kind of an easy content generator to set up.  Sanctioned and unsanctioned mages, arguing over what freedom is and trying to sway each other, and sometimes breaking into war over it.  Other plots can come along, this one seems like a steady one, as long as there are some benefits to remaining ungemmed.

[Desertman]

phenomenal cosmic powers

Right in my childhood.



Aaaaaand now I'm sad about Robin Williams. 

[Asmoth]

Sounds like any long-lived character really, just that you reach that ceiling a whole lot sooner on average.

I've never been a mage who will sit for 8 hours spam casting, I prefer to be out doing things so it's not so much that I hit the ceiling fast.
(Some casting time is required to branch useful spells but not to start day one as newb Mage to emerge from your temple day 5 as magic incarnate)

But the limiting factor and purpose I'm talking about is that only oash will hire you potentially.  Other groups are afraid to do it.

So if you're not oash you're just this powerful thing running around doing random acts, like a roomba that can destroy worlds, yet is just bouncing off the walls.

[Desertman]

While I am publicly in the boat of less magic, I do feel that if we are going to be forced to have the gemmed around (meh), I wouldn't mind seeing them more freely implemented into other organizations.

If they aren't going to be rare and terrifying, which they aren't, I don't see why we are pretending they are.

I would rather see them more readily integrated into the IC gameworld to reflect the fact they are indeed not rare or terrifying.

A sort of, "Bringing the game world up to speed with what the playberbase actually experiences.", change.

[Armaddict]

While I am publicly in the boat of less magic, I do feel that if we are going to be forced to have the gemmed around (meh), I wouldn't mind seeing them more freely implemented into other organizations.

If they aren't going to be rare and terrifying, which they aren't, I don't see why we are pretending they are.

I would rather see them more readily integrated into the IC gameworld to reflect the fact they are indeed not rare or terrifying.

A sort of, "Bringing the game world up to speed with what the playberbase actually experiences.", change.

Problem with that is that it's been done before.  A few times, even, but on small scales.  Inevitably, it turns into integration that is more akin to 'mundanes!  Guard your mages!  You're nothing without them!'.

There is no need to integrate that deeply, and thus no reason for clans to just open up their doors and say 'Fuck it, may as well just do it because that's what you all want.'  Magickal plots can be had, while maintaining the current game world, but it requires that mages look to each other for their plots instead of making it a mage community that is brought closer together with each other by isolation.  Likewise, that same level of fear/dislike of mages can be maintained even with them around constantly...the gemmer is not the scary thing, it's what they do.  In other words...having the mage and mundane interact is not the big deal.  The big deal is when we just roll our eyes and start ignoring what they're doing right in front of us.  'Oh, it's harmless' is a perogative of you, the player, not the character in the game world.  If you're putting yourself in the position to be casted in front of as 'no big deal', that's on you;  that is not you reacting to things, that is you being the symptom, or rather, the proponent for anti-documentation.

So again...mages can be firmly entrenched in the world, doing their own mage-ey things, so long as that air of 'But we need to be careful not to upset the people' is maintained.

[Mook]

[LauraMars]

I'm absolutely for there being more consistency in Allanak's society with regards to magick.  There's no clear documentation about what place the gemmed have in society.  If gemmed can find employment with other noble houses or merchant houses (maybe Rennik uses them to water their wheat fields or Nenyuk uses them to guard their vaults or something), tell us this, and make it a part of the documentation. If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

While I want magick to remain despised and on the fringes, I think mages should be able to be employed by many clans, without the dire social punishments that currently strike everyone but the mysteriously consequence-immune Oash for even talking about doing so.  Just let clans hire a mage or two for whatever reason, but pay them next to nothing and make sure everyone knows the mage is akin to the half-elf stableboy in terms of status.

[Asmoth]

I'm absolutely for there being more consistency in Allanak's society with regards to magick.  There's no clear documentation about what place the gemmed have in society.  If gemmed can find employment with other noble houses or merchant houses (maybe Rennik uses them to water their wheat fields or Nenyuk uses them to guard their vaults or something), tell us this, and make it a part of the documentation. If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

While I want magick to remain despised and on the fringes, I think mages should be able to be employed by many clans, without the dire social punishments that currently strike everyone but the mysteriously consequence-immune Oash for even talking about doing so.  Just let clans hire a mage or two for whatever reason, but pay them next to nothing and make sure everyone knows the mage is akin to the half-elf stableboy in terms of status.

You just gave me a semi... I think I love you. Lmao

[wizturbo]

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

I would like to report that there are plots that let mages pursue magick and actually get somewhere fun.  They are just not in the public eye.  They exist.  I know.  And I smile...  

However, they are rare, and require a lot of staff support.  It's not sustainable for the only 'purpose' of mage characters to be pursuing these kinds of plots, because most of them aren't ever going to see one unless they're lucky or are quite persistent and stick around for a long time.  

For that reason, integration into the rest of the world seems like the best idea to me.  Let them get involved in clans, clan politics, and maybe some clan RPT's depending on the clan and the type of RPT.  Let them have a place in the world.  I don't care if that place is literally as slaves, or treated like halfbreeds are treated in clans today.  That is still a place.  There is still something to chew on, rather than isolation and boredom.  I would gladly roleplay an Elkrosian enslaved to Kurac, or a Vivaduan slave of the Arm of the Dragon.  Those would be awesome roles, despite the limitations that come with being a slave, when the alternative is isolation in a distinctively multiplayer, social game.  You know why everyone points to tribal magick as the best adaption of magick in Armageddon?  It's because they're part of something.  They have built in purpose, a clan to work with, and limitations on them from that purpose and that clan that make sense and are cohesive with the world.

The only roles that should be forced into isolation or secrecy entirely are Nilazi, Mindbenders, and Sorcerers.   The rest should be on a sliding scale, depending on the element.  Vivadu being the most accepted, Whira the least, but still some shred of acceptance when compared to Nilaz/Psionicism/Sorcery.  The docs basically say this already, but for whatever reason the world does not reflect it.

Edit:  Also, pretty much what LauraMars just said...  We're saying the same thing.

[Armaddict]

The moment that 'Go see the healer' becomes a common phrase and is meaning a magicker over a mundane is the moment that I disagree highly and very specifically with that practice of integration.

[Asmoth]

The moment that 'Go see the healer' becomes a common phrase and is meaning a magicker over a mundane is the moment that I disagree highly and very specifically with that practice of integration.

When I play a mundane half the time the mundane healer tries to heal me he almost kills me.

But seriously it's not unthemely, go stand in the water temple and read the emotes, it's frowned upon but not uncommon at all from the line of people waiting outside the temple.  People would rather live than die 100% of the time.

[LauraMars]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

[Armaddict]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner, or that there are just people on fire at all times in the Gaj's cooking pit.

[Asmoth]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner.

I'm not saying you get hit from 150 to 130 and you run to the temple.

But if you're at 30 and not regenerating out of 150.

I will run to the temple before I go sleep in the alley or other hidden area and not because of robbery or death. But because sleeping back to full health is jarring, at least the water witch makes more sense.

[Delirium]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Yes.

[Armaddict]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner.

I'm not saying you get hit from 150 to 130 and you run to the temple.

But if you're at 30 and not regenerating out of 150.

I will run to the temple before I go sleep in the alley or other hidden area and not because of robbery or death. But because sleeping back to full health is jarring, at least the water witch makes more sense.

Please.  You're now justifying anti-documentation with nuances in code that are already discussed as 'something weird' on the player-todo-list of being changed.  There is interpretation to be had there, which is already done on a wide scale with understanding from the players that the 'sleep' is often 'being tended to', and that the longer-lasting effects of such damage are on you, the player, to roleplay...much like the state of magick in the game.  So this justification is pretty weak.

Edit for Delirium/Laura's posts:

I can agree with that.  Something that makes them still powerful, yet intrinsically unpredictable and sometimes more hindrance than help by sheer (un)luck or circumstance, would balance things out well;  You'd use it if you needed to, but not go willy-nilly at it.  However, until such a time as that becomes coded in, the integration is out of place since the factors are not in place yet.

[BadSkeelz]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Yes.

[Delirium]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

I can see deciding to adjust the actual lore of the game to have magic become corrupted by the abuse it's sustained via said despots over the years... or maybe by nilaz.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

please.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I'd not be too opposed to gemmed having more roles in society, but I personally don't feel them to be something a noble house would ever openly/publicly employ. Oash has always been jarring to me in this manner. A gemmed could surely almost always be tossed something to do by one of the templars in the city, if they seek one out? Maybe approach a noble's aide in secret with offers of assistance, etc?

That said, the hiring in clans is almost always done by the sponsored roles in charge, and my discomfort with it all is that the first slot of allotted gemmed would almost always be a drovian spy, simply because of what their abilities can bring to the table as far as foiling other plots in your favor.

Borsail Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "Yessir, there's other shadow kiddies, and they're ALL RIGHT HERE!"

Tor Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "Yessir, there's other shadow kiddies, and they're ALL RIGHT HERE!"

Jal Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "We don't have one, my Lord. Everyone believes that working for the House stinks."