Mages and purpose...

[Asmoth]

it would be nice if there was more than House Oash and outright evil cabals for a magicker to participate in.

I'm for bringing back the council of mages and for having mages in the arm.

(I know that neither will really probably ever happen, but it's nice to dream.)

But for a serious note, I feel mages are often only watched to ensure they aren't twinking or outright murdering people on whims, but other than that, they are the forgotten bastards of the game until they do something horrible. (Which may be due to boredom and or nothing to strive towards) Thoughts?

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think a mage's purpose should be all that different form anyone else's They're still a person with desires, dreams, aspirations. Some might have a purpose affiliated with their magick, some might not. Some might not have a purpose at all.

I liked the Council simply because it allowed my first magicker to get into some shit FAST. I'm not sure if it did the game any favors though.

[Asmoth]

there is a disconnect with the way the gemmer temples are setup versus the reality of the game.

I'm supposed to look towards my temple and elders for training and knowledge, yet that means either bugging staff with questions about magick or hoping there is someone who's actually been around for more than a month and knows what they are talking about heh. Mages die quite often if you didn't know...

I feel that there should at the bare minimum be some type of clan structure for mages of X type and possibly a board on the gdb to coordinate that any other established group has. This way I can coordinate with other players.  They could even have the Templars as a member of the board for "supervision".

I personally can't see any downside to having clan or board organization to mages.  Unless you see roleplaying with others of your ilk to be a downside.

[CodeMaster]

Interesting ideas but make sure you distinguish between gemmed mages and rogue mages, or these threads tend to go off the rails.

[Asmoth]

Interesting ideas but make sure you distinguish between gemmed mages and rogue mages, or these threads tend to go off the rails.

Gemmed, as it is an ungemmed could simply join any job as is unless they walk around with their magick hanging out.

[Delirium]

A lack of purpose isn't something that's limited to gemmed, but it becomes far more starkly illuminated when you're the equivalent of a DPS glass cannon with nothing to do.

Tek forbid you be able to accomplish something with your phenomenal cosmic powers, so you either kill yourself trying to have fun by taking crazy risks, or waste away into storage.

Sounds like any long-lived character really, just that you reach that ceiling a whole lot sooner on average.

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

.... that solution just doesn't seem to fly these days.

[Armaddict]

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

I don't have any problems with them pursuing magickal plots.  The problem is that there aren't a lot of those that are self-sustaining; they seem to require external intervention, i.e. Staff run plots, or templars going out of their way to find something for them to do.  This is what led to the dreaded 'Magicker Special Forces'; some players try to create content for people, and end up creating things that upset everyone else.

I'm not saying don't do that, either, but it's why I keep bring up the rogue mages.  I am of the opinion that there needs to be both benefits and drawbacks to taking the gem, outright.  I want there to be rogue mages.  I want gemmed and ungemmed to be in a hidden war with each other.  I want gemmed and ungemmed krathis to have unsteady relations when it comes to drovians, but otherwise be at odds with each other.  I want them to be at each other's throats, but afraid to act in public because the stir of the populace would demand templar involvement.

I'm not saying it's the only solution, I just think it's kind of an easy content generator to set up.  Sanctioned and unsanctioned mages, arguing over what freedom is and trying to sway each other, and sometimes breaking into war over it.  Other plots can come along, this one seems like a steady one, as long as there are some benefits to remaining ungemmed.

[Desertman]

phenomenal cosmic powers

Right in my childhood.



Aaaaaand now I'm sad about Robin Williams. 

[Asmoth]

Sounds like any long-lived character really, just that you reach that ceiling a whole lot sooner on average.

I've never been a mage who will sit for 8 hours spam casting, I prefer to be out doing things so it's not so much that I hit the ceiling fast.
(Some casting time is required to branch useful spells but not to start day one as newb Mage to emerge from your temple day 5 as magic incarnate)

But the limiting factor and purpose I'm talking about is that only oash will hire you potentially.  Other groups are afraid to do it.

So if you're not oash you're just this powerful thing running around doing random acts, like a roomba that can destroy worlds, yet is just bouncing off the walls.

[Desertman]

While I am publicly in the boat of less magic, I do feel that if we are going to be forced to have the gemmed around (meh), I wouldn't mind seeing them more freely implemented into other organizations.

If they aren't going to be rare and terrifying, which they aren't, I don't see why we are pretending they are.

I would rather see them more readily integrated into the IC gameworld to reflect the fact they are indeed not rare or terrifying.

A sort of, "Bringing the game world up to speed with what the playberbase actually experiences.", change.

[Armaddict]

While I am publicly in the boat of less magic, I do feel that if we are going to be forced to have the gemmed around (meh), I wouldn't mind seeing them more freely implemented into other organizations.

If they aren't going to be rare and terrifying, which they aren't, I don't see why we are pretending they are.

I would rather see them more readily integrated into the IC gameworld to reflect the fact they are indeed not rare or terrifying.

A sort of, "Bringing the game world up to speed with what the playberbase actually experiences.", change.

Problem with that is that it's been done before.  A few times, even, but on small scales.  Inevitably, it turns into integration that is more akin to 'mundanes!  Guard your mages!  You're nothing without them!'.

There is no need to integrate that deeply, and thus no reason for clans to just open up their doors and say 'Fuck it, may as well just do it because that's what you all want.'  Magickal plots can be had, while maintaining the current game world, but it requires that mages look to each other for their plots instead of making it a mage community that is brought closer together with each other by isolation.  Likewise, that same level of fear/dislike of mages can be maintained even with them around constantly...the gemmer is not the scary thing, it's what they do.  In other words...having the mage and mundane interact is not the big deal.  The big deal is when we just roll our eyes and start ignoring what they're doing right in front of us.  'Oh, it's harmless' is a perogative of you, the player, not the character in the game world.  If you're putting yourself in the position to be casted in front of as 'no big deal', that's on you;  that is not you reacting to things, that is you being the symptom, or rather, the proponent for anti-documentation.

So again...mages can be firmly entrenched in the world, doing their own mage-ey things, so long as that air of 'But we need to be careful not to upset the people' is maintained.

[Mook]

[LauraMars]

I'm absolutely for there being more consistency in Allanak's society with regards to magick.  There's no clear documentation about what place the gemmed have in society.  If gemmed can find employment with other noble houses or merchant houses (maybe Rennik uses them to water their wheat fields or Nenyuk uses them to guard their vaults or something), tell us this, and make it a part of the documentation. If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

While I want magick to remain despised and on the fringes, I think mages should be able to be employed by many clans, without the dire social punishments that currently strike everyone but the mysteriously consequence-immune Oash for even talking about doing so.  Just let clans hire a mage or two for whatever reason, but pay them next to nothing and make sure everyone knows the mage is akin to the half-elf stableboy in terms of status.

[Asmoth]

I'm absolutely for there being more consistency in Allanak's society with regards to magick.  There's no clear documentation about what place the gemmed have in society.  If gemmed can find employment with other noble houses or merchant houses (maybe Rennik uses them to water their wheat fields or Nenyuk uses them to guard their vaults or something), tell us this, and make it a part of the documentation. If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

While I want magick to remain despised and on the fringes, I think mages should be able to be employed by many clans, without the dire social punishments that currently strike everyone but the mysteriously consequence-immune Oash for even talking about doing so.  Just let clans hire a mage or two for whatever reason, but pay them next to nothing and make sure everyone knows the mage is akin to the half-elf stableboy in terms of status.

You just gave me a semi... I think I love you. Lmao

[wizturbo]

Sadly I don't have a solution that isn't "let mages pursue magick related plots and actually get somewhere fun without being ground into the dirt and used as a chewtoy".

I would like to report that there are plots that let mages pursue magick and actually get somewhere fun.  They are just not in the public eye.  They exist.  I know.  And I smile...  

However, they are rare, and require a lot of staff support.  It's not sustainable for the only 'purpose' of mage characters to be pursuing these kinds of plots, because most of them aren't ever going to see one unless they're lucky or are quite persistent and stick around for a long time.  

For that reason, integration into the rest of the world seems like the best idea to me.  Let them get involved in clans, clan politics, and maybe some clan RPT's depending on the clan and the type of RPT.  Let them have a place in the world.  I don't care if that place is literally as slaves, or treated like halfbreeds are treated in clans today.  That is still a place.  There is still something to chew on, rather than isolation and boredom.  I would gladly roleplay an Elkrosian enslaved to Kurac, or a Vivaduan slave of the Arm of the Dragon.  Those would be awesome roles, despite the limitations that come with being a slave, when the alternative is isolation in a distinctively multiplayer, social game.  You know why everyone points to tribal magick as the best adaption of magick in Armageddon?  It's because they're part of something.  They have built in purpose, a clan to work with, and limitations on them from that purpose and that clan that make sense and are cohesive with the world.

The only roles that should be forced into isolation or secrecy entirely are Nilazi, Mindbenders, and Sorcerers.   The rest should be on a sliding scale, depending on the element.  Vivadu being the most accepted, Whira the least, but still some shred of acceptance when compared to Nilaz/Psionicism/Sorcery.  The docs basically say this already, but for whatever reason the world does not reflect it.

Edit:  Also, pretty much what LauraMars just said...  We're saying the same thing.

[Armaddict]

The moment that 'Go see the healer' becomes a common phrase and is meaning a magicker over a mundane is the moment that I disagree highly and very specifically with that practice of integration.

[Asmoth]

The moment that 'Go see the healer' becomes a common phrase and is meaning a magicker over a mundane is the moment that I disagree highly and very specifically with that practice of integration.

When I play a mundane half the time the mundane healer tries to heal me he almost kills me.

But seriously it's not unthemely, go stand in the water temple and read the emotes, it's frowned upon but not uncommon at all from the line of people waiting outside the temple.  People would rather live than die 100% of the time.

[LauraMars]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

[Armaddict]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner, or that there are just people on fire at all times in the Gaj's cooking pit.

[Asmoth]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner.

I'm not saying you get hit from 150 to 130 and you run to the temple.

But if you're at 30 and not regenerating out of 150.

I will run to the temple before I go sleep in the alley or other hidden area and not because of robbery or death. But because sleeping back to full health is jarring, at least the water witch makes more sense.

[Delirium]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Yes.

[Armaddict]

As has been shared in previous threads, it's not unheard of to go there in the case of a family member facing death, or in the case of permanent maiming being the looming threat.  However, it is done with unease and distrust, still, with a mentality of 'there may be a cost I pay for this'.

It's not free of taboo.  It's not a careless move.  It's a calculated risk, not a lovey-dovey relationship between mundanes and vivaduans.  So again...in the case of someone getting hit too hard with a sparring weapon, the proper response is not 'Oh, go see a vivaduan for the heavy wound.'

In the case of a normal wound, it's not a case of 'Oh, go see a vivaduan, they'll close that right up.'  In the case of severe wounding, of near death experiences and roleplaying the possibility of permanent maiming, it becomes a 'Is it worth it?' question, where the reluctance is weighed.

Trying to represent it as a carefree decision because of some room echoes is a pretty big misrepresentation, akin to insinuating there are 10 elven rinthi's dragged out of the gaj every day, and a permanent half-elf latrine in the gaj's corner.

I'm not saying you get hit from 150 to 130 and you run to the temple.

But if you're at 30 and not regenerating out of 150.

I will run to the temple before I go sleep in the alley or other hidden area and not because of robbery or death. But because sleeping back to full health is jarring, at least the water witch makes more sense.

Please.  You're now justifying anti-documentation with nuances in code that are already discussed as 'something weird' on the player-todo-list of being changed.  There is interpretation to be had there, which is already done on a wide scale with understanding from the players that the 'sleep' is often 'being tended to', and that the longer-lasting effects of such damage are on you, the player, to roleplay...much like the state of magick in the game.  So this justification is pretty weak.

Edit for Delirium/Laura's posts:

I can agree with that.  Something that makes them still powerful, yet intrinsically unpredictable and sometimes more hindrance than help by sheer (un)luck or circumstance, would balance things out well;  You'd use it if you needed to, but not go willy-nilly at it.  However, until such a time as that becomes coded in, the integration is out of place since the factors are not in place yet.

[BadSkeelz]

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Yes.

[Delirium]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

I can see deciding to adjust the actual lore of the game to have magic become corrupted by the abuse it's sustained via said despots over the years... or maybe by nilaz.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

please.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I'd not be too opposed to gemmed having more roles in society, but I personally don't feel them to be something a noble house would ever openly/publicly employ. Oash has always been jarring to me in this manner. A gemmed could surely almost always be tossed something to do by one of the templars in the city, if they seek one out? Maybe approach a noble's aide in secret with offers of assistance, etc?

That said, the hiring in clans is almost always done by the sponsored roles in charge, and my discomfort with it all is that the first slot of allotted gemmed would almost always be a drovian spy, simply because of what their abilities can bring to the table as far as foiling other plots in your favor.

Borsail Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "Yessir, there's other shadow kiddies, and they're ALL RIGHT HERE!"

Tor Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "Yessir, there's other shadow kiddies, and they're ALL RIGHT HERE!"

Jal Nob: "So, anything from our shadow kiddie?"
Aide: "We don't have one, my Lord. Everyone believes that working for the House stinks."

[BadSkeelz]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

I can see deciding to adjust the actual lore of the game to have magic become corrupted by the abuse it's sustained via said despots over the years... or maybe by nilaz.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

please.

The fear of Magick being a propaganda tool is a thing, yes. But it's not the main reason.

Tulukis fear and hate magick because their City was blown up by raging, wild elementals. Allanak hasn't had anything quite so dramatic (although there's been at least one elemental rampage in recent history) but magick is presented as a dangerous, unstable force to be wary of at best.

Elementalists are communing with powers outside of human comprehension, powers who generally turn out to be rather dickish if they're allowed to run wild. It's in the Allanaki Templarate's interest for people to distrust magick, but they didn't invent that distrust.

[BadSkeelz]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

[Asmoth]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

Or they could kill you...

[Pale Horse]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

Or they could kill you...

I had a situation like that, once.  My rogue magicker, hiding out in the city, had a 'rinther approach them and try to talk them into conducting some business in the 'rinth.  Said 'rinther then draws my character into a secluded room and attempts to kill them.

Thank you, random 'rinther, for taking me out into a secluded area where the guard couldn't interfere.

Out came the magick, down went the 'rinther and away went my character, no one else the wiser.

[Armaddict]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

This is inaccurate, lore-wise.  Lore-wise, it is because the average person cannot differentiate between elementalism and sorcery;  They know there -is- a difference, but they can't tell what it is.  They do depend on templars to tell them which is which, or some of the particularly patient may be able to figure it out over time.  Lore-wise, this has resulted in all magick, elementalist and sorcery, having negative connotations, because the knowledge that magick destroys the world and people is known fact, with little beyond that.  Magick has been used for a long time, and all the benefits of it have been lost in the light that it wrecked the world.

This carries over into the short term.  Even when a mage promises you that it's harmless, that everything will be fine...of -course- they'd say that, because evil things always try to deceive you into letting them do something to you.  As Skeelz said, the despots have definitely capitalized on this (probably smugfacing at Tek's own contribution), but the overall 'lore' that exists is a very negative light on them.  Tribals maintained spirituality around it, whereas the 'civilized' centers focused on the consequences of the use of magick.  While this may not be something recited about, that is the origin of the 'magick hate'.  That is the long term lore.

Magick raped the world and killed lots of people, and that is what is remembered about it through the ages.

[Asmoth]

All of these different views are interesting, but let's not lose track of the point of this topic, the magickers need more shit to do. Be it jobs and or clans.

[Delirium]

Armaddict: we agree really, though your viewpoint is a great example of why people are taught to fear magic even though it can actually be used for great good.

I'm not at all saying we should change that and turn people into hippy-dippy preservers, I'm saying that magick in reality tends to be quite predictable and almost scientific in its use and application. Which is a lot of fun, granted, but it also makes it hard to fear when you know that Krathi's fireball is always going to hit its intended target.

I've seen some great examples of magick always having a terrible hidden cost, and I love it, but that's only ever reflected in staff-supported roleplay, which makes it feel almost punitive. I'd like it if the code reflected the reality better, whatever that reality is. Which is another problem - that reality isn't well defined and has silently changed in the past.

Better defining the role and flavor of magick in the game beyond "OMG FEAR ME HARSH" and updating the code to reflect that would go a long way toward being able to integrate magickers into the gameworld without having to constantly reprimand people who, innocently or no, "don't get it".

If people should fear magick, make it more unpredictable. Unpredictable stuff is scary.

As it is CODED now, magick is a science, not a force of unknowable, barely tamed power.

OT,

Valid goals for mages are hard to come up with, but honestly it helps not to think of "magick goals" - think of them as a personal goals.

What do they, as a person, want to do with their life?

How does magick help or hinder that?

How do they feel about that?

How do they react? Inwardly? Outwardly?

[Asmoth]

Ok, finally at a real computer to post some real responses.,,

Magick raped the world and killed lots of people, and that is what is remembered about it through the ages.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

The fear of Magick being a propaganda tool is a thing, yes. But it's not the main reason.

Tulukis fear and hate magick because their City was blown up by raging, wild elementals. Allanak hasn't had anything quite so dramatic (although there's been at least one elemental rampage in recent history) but magick is presented as a dangerous, unstable force to be wary of at best.

Elementalists are communing with powers outside of human comprehension, powers who generally turn out to be rather dickish if they're allowed to run wild. It's in the Allanaki Templarate's interest for people to distrust magick, but they didn't invent that distrust.

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Okay, to address all those posts more or less.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any
mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible
sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.
Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only
large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

It already is lore that Mages, particularly water mages are HIGHLY EMPLOYABLE, yet everyone cherry picks which lore they want to stick to.

If I was Asmoth Salarr, I would be hiring a fucking water mage quick as shit.  I don't have to pay to get water, EVER.  If my favorite employee gets maimed by a Mekillot, no worries, call in the Water Mage.

He would be "Worth incredible sums of money" to me...

So folks, hire your local water mage today.

EDIT: I may have misquoted or deleted a quote line somewhere in there, but you get the idea.

[Armaddict]

That helpfile gets brought up in every thread because it's the outlier that defies all the other documentation.  So for the umpteenth time, I believe that such is a language thing; it is describing what water mages can do the same way it does every other class, i.e. Burglars are highly employable as spies.  Pickpockets are highly employable for these skills.  Rangers are highly employable for these functions.  So on and so forth.

With the number of times that helpfile has been discussed/argued, it basically falls in the 'can't be used either way' column, due to its refutations and questionable presentation.

Delirium:  We are in agreement.  I want mages to have more to do, I really do.  I just don't believe integration, as magick stands right now, is a good solution.  After the changes you presented, I'd be all for it, because there would be a built in barrier against relying on it or truly embracing it.  As is, I'm looking for internal solutions.  Things mages can do to give mages things to do.  More inter-temple plots, be they conflict or cooperation.  More shady interventions for their own benefits.  More gemmed vs ungemmed conflicts and cooperation.

Basically, I'd like to have a much less -unified- council of allanaki mages that doesn't really get involved in external business.  I think more interesting relationships between mages and other mages will give more to do.  It will create a 'magick world' where magick is more common, but it's so terribly hidden from the populace to save themselves that whenever an external PC -does- get involved, it's mindblowing that no one knows this is happening.  I want that careful separation to be maintained, out of self-preservation, but with real things happening, as well.  I don't feel this requires staff driven anything, I think the players of mages just need to stop carebearing into allies under the gem and trust in distrust, more.

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

[nauta]

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any
mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible
sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.
Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only
large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Just to pop in here -- as a matter of interpretation, what the first line could (maybe should) be interpreted to mean is this:

Amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with [i.e., about 1% of the population, tops], water mages are highly employable [i.e., the most likely to be employed, in that tiny fraction].

So 99% (let's say) of 1% is still a tiny fraction, and yields the results I think documentation and lore demand: that even water mages (who offer the obvious good for a desert planet: water) are not actually hardly ever employed.  But if someone (through their own sickness or whatever) employs a gick (which is rare), it would likely be a water gick.

The irony, though, is that, in point of coded reality, Whirans and Drovians are probably the most employed gicks among the PC population, since water isn't actually that rare (codedly).

I'm with LauraMars' two-fold suggestion: 1. Codedly make magick more random. 2. Provide some documentation for life as a gemmed (in line with the excellent documentation for life as a gick in a tribe).

[Asmoth]

A bunch of stuff...

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

This I totally disagree with.  Manufacturing reasons to kill folks is easy and done all the time, in the mundane world and beyond.

Finding reasons to team up and goals to accomplish however is almost never done.

Just because the vast majority of players play to chop fuckers up with bone swords™, doesn't mean that needs to be the driving goal in every interaction.

[BadSkeelz]

A lot about magick - the public documentation, the code, House Oash's use of it* - I believe dates back to an earlier High Fantasy period of Armageddon. I'd like it all to get revamped and expanded on and better integrated in to the current game world.

*House Oash itself has a lot of relics of olden days in its doc, item, clan structure and conceptualization I'm told. But that's another thread.

[nauta]

Armaddict points to one thing that gemmed PCs can do: PvP.  During my tenure as a gemmed, this was pretty much true -- go find that rogue and kill it.  It's fun.

Gemmed can also do PvE and they can also do the whole social RP thing (secret lovers, other gemmed lovers).

What gemmed can't do (maybe shouldn't be allowed to do), however, is group RP.  You can't have that one Vivaduan along on a Byn patrol or a Kuraci patrol.  You can't have the Whiran along on a group RP/adventure.  It throws the adventure off (as anyone who has done a dungeon crawl with a templar and gemmed would know) and, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense.  Even groups of gemmed going out tends to leave a weird taste in peoples mouths -- even a group of Oashi gemmed.

In tribes, however, magickers can do the group RP, with the mundanes in the tribe.  That's pretty awesome.

Maybe what Asmoth is asking for with jobs and the like is more outlets for group RP with a gemmed, and that is something I'm not sure is possible, nor is it something that the gameworld needs.

[Armaddict]

A bunch of stuff...

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

This I totally disagree with.  Manufacturing reasons to kill folks is easy and done all the time, in the mundane world and beyond.

Finding reasons to team up and goals to accomplish however is almost never done.

Just because the vast majority of players play to chop fuckers up with bone swords™, doesn't mean that needs to be the driving goal in every interaction.

That's fine for you to disagree with.  I'm not talking about willy nilly assassinations all over the place, though.  I'm talking about realistic distrust in the game, and creating situations that others should naturally, out of distrust, meddle with.  There is documentation abound of mages distrusting other elements, and yet this is rarely played out.  You say finding reasons to team up is almost never done, I say that that is the natural resting state of the game right now.  People plotting actively against others is happening, yes...but not on the scale that 'leave everyone be' is happening.

This is also fine.  However, in the cases of mages in particular, where there is the long-standing general complaint of 'there's nothing for me to actually do', they are also not doing anything that could be done on a personal character level.  When the level of cooperation and trust gets so high, you making an unconscious demand for other people to generate content for you;  Years ago, there was the announcement from staff that as per player request, player run plots would become the mainstay of the game.  There was an actual sizable chunk of the playerbase that was complaining about staff run plots and not being able to have an impact in them.  Now, we are on the opposite end of the spectrum, where people are waiting for others to generate content for them, and waiting as a cooperative group for it.

None of this is meant as a complaint about it.  But it's an observation, one that I'm trying to convey that this, to a large degree, a self-inflicted problem.  It's not that the game world needs to adjust to fit mages in, it's that mages need to adjust to fit into the game world with real characters with real goals, real reasons to deceive, real reasons to passionately fight things they see happening, and real reasons to not get along with everyone.  From that point on, plots and conflicts flow naturally, as long as the benefit of the doubt isn't just given to everyone.  Stop trusting everyone.  Start coming up with things for your mage to actively investigate...even if it results in an 'oh, I was mistaken, he's not an evil dude at all.'

[Asmoth]

Armaddict points to one thing that gemmed PCs can do: PvP.  During my tenure as a gemmed, this was pretty much true -- go find that rogue and kill it.  It's fun.

Gemmed can also do PvE and they can also do the whole social RP thing (secret lovers, other gemmed lovers).

What gemmed can't do (maybe shouldn't be allowed to do), however, is group RP.  You can't have that one Vivaduan along on a Byn patrol or a Kuraci patrol.  You can't have the Whiran along on a group RP/adventure.  It throws the adventure off (as anyone who has done a dungeon crawl with a templar and gemmed would know) and, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense.  Even groups of gemmed going out tends to leave a weird taste in peoples mouths -- even a group of Oashi gemmed.

In tribes, however, magickers can do the group RP, with the mundanes in the tribe.  That's pretty awesome.

Maybe what Asmoth is asking for with jobs and the like is more outlets for group RP with a gemmed, and that is something I'm not sure is possible, nor is it something that the gameworld needs.

Oh I get the potential power of even two different gemmed out together.  I have been a part of some lopsided ass fights that way.  Six scrab attack, no biggy, two spells, all dead.

But what I'm saying is why not have that water mage to heal you on that trip and kept you watered?

Would it be weird, would it be odd, sure, but it would be DAMNED EFFECTIVE.

Hell, if you get a few Krathi's, a whiran and a water mage to group up, gemmed or not, they are killing anything and anyone in their way.

But I guess I don't understand WHY we are against PLAYER powerful groups, but not against the Mekillot that can eat six players who randomly walk into an adjacent room on accident but we don't blink an eye.

Same danger, but one is fine and the other is taboo.

And just to clarify, not every mages goal is to see how many non-mage boots they can get.

[Delirium]

Well... the recent change puts an interesting and ironic spin on all this discussion.

[Asmoth]

Well... the recent change puts an interesting and ironic spin on all this discussion.

I'm digging it, for sure.

[Asmoth]

Yeah this doesn't matter as much on a whole, because Rogue Mages will now be much more playable, due to the fact they are people first and mages last.

So I can be that First Hunter for Salarr who dabbles in wind witchery on the side.

I fucking, love this change.

[LauraMars]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

[Jihelu]

No we just have to hate on psionicists...

[BadSkeelz]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

[TheWanderer]

If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

All of this, by the way. I thought the reason would reveal itself to me as the years went on, but it's still the weirdest, most out of place writing in the game.

[LauraMars]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

I have absolutely nothing against a well played Drovian, Psionicist, or any other class in the game. Character is greater than everything else and someone who puts roleplay first and does it well gets my full respect no matter what class they are playing.

I hate, and have always hated, the coded construction of those classes and what they are capable of doing.

[Asmoth]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

I have absolutely nothing against a well played Drovian, Psionicist, or any other class in the game. Character is greater than everything else and someone who puts roleplay first and does it well gets my full respect no matter what class they are playing.

I hate, and have always hated, the coded construction of those classes and what they are capable of doing.

Yup I've had a few character ruined by psionicists who knew EVERYTHING.

[Erythil]

What if I want to be a mage first?   

[Akariel]

If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

All of this, by the way. I thought the reason would reveal itself to me as the years went on, but it's still the weirdest, most out of place writing in the game.

More than one house in Allanak makes use of mages, it's just that only one of the houses that has a PC presence has access to that resource.

[LauraMars]

If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

All of this, by the way. I thought the reason would reveal itself to me as the years went on, but it's still the weirdest, most out of place writing in the game.

More than one house in Allanak makes use of mages, it's just that only one of the houses that has a PC presence has access to that resource.

Well then that's great, but like I said:

If gemmed can find employment with other noble houses or merchant houses (maybe Rennik uses them to water their wheat fields or Nenyuk uses them to guard their vaults or something), tell us this, and make it a part of the documentation.

And I still want to know why there's social consequences for some (Merchant Houses, anyone?) but not others (some Noble Houses) for using mages? Just better documentation in some form for all this stuff would be so beneficial.

But yeah I guess you guys are busy making mind blowing and awesome changes to magick guilds and that's cool too.  Don't mind me...Keep doing that.

[BadSkeelz]

I imagine it would be very damaging to your reputation as a Merchant House if you became known as an employer of magickers. Especially when one of the largest populations in the game is vehemently against magiiiiiiooooyeaaah.

[Akariel]

Some merchant houses have it in their documentation that they can hire magickers.

[Asmoth]

Some merchant houses have it in their documentation that they can hire magickers.

... WHO?

[Jihelu]

Some merchant houses have it in their documentation that they can hire magickers.

... WHO?

Find out ic

[TheWanderer]

What's represented in documentation and the current IG universe to players is that the majority of the populace in Allanak fears the gemmed and have irrational (and sometimes very rational) concerns, causing these people to be repulsed by their very presence. The living weapons of the Templarate aren't mingled with, aren't invited to social functions, and are commonly avoided like the plague. They're quarantined in their own special section of the city because of the distrust and discord they sow amongst the citizens, and the disgust they breed in some of the nobility.

Gleaned from a number of posts, some of the Noble Houses and Merchant Houses recruited gemmed IG and more often virtually once upon a time. If they still do, it's no longer reflected IG or through documentation on the website but can certainly be supposed. One of the Lower Tier Houses with nowhere to drop in rank being a prime candidate due to their function. However, when they rail against the majority and join the minority, they seem to be doing it discreetly to avoid the social stigma accompanied by the act. I'd venture a guess and say the Templarate loans them out.

Then we have Oash. An Upper Tier House which dresses their chosen gemmed in livery and parades them about the city. The use of gemmed in Allanaki society isn't something to be proud of, and if a Noble House does use them, it's always felt like it should be one with a lesser distinction than that of the Upper Tier.

[MeTekillot]

Might be they're in the Upper Tier because trying to hard to knock down a peg the stuffy assholes who employ living weapons of mass destruction has not gone well thus far.

[Molten Heart]

I think merchant houses (even if they are allowed to) don't hire elemetalists because the clan leaders are afraid of bad things happening, even being called mage lovers.

[manipura]

I think merchant houses (even if they are allowed to) don't hire elemetalists because the clan leaders are afraid of bad things happening, even being called mage lovers.

I imagine that there are some people who just don't bother officially hiring mages (whether they're 'allowed to' or not) simply because they don't want to risk the chance that some bored Oash noble with nothing better to do won't wage a vendetta on them because "-WE- are the mage House!"  Even if that particular mage has no interest in joining Oash or is a race that Oash won't hire.

[Asmoth]

I think merchant houses (even if they are allowed to) don't hire elemetalists because the clan leaders are afraid of bad things happening, even being called mage lovers.

I imagine that there are some people who just don't bother officially hiring mages (whether they're 'allowed to' or not) simply because they don't want to risk the chance that some bored Oash noble with nothing better to do won't wage a vendetta on them because "-WE- are the mage House!"  Even if that particular mage has no interest in joining Oash or is a race that Oash won't hire.

To this I would have to call them cowards... But that said I do understand not wanting to risk their sponsored character by changing the status quo.

However, if you guys ever need a guy who "ain't skirred" I'm your guy.

[manipura]

I'm not even talking about sponsored characters, actually.  If anything I'd say sponsored characters have a bit more protection because if salty Lady or Lord Oash want to cause a kerfuffle over them making use of a mage, they're now dealing with a House.
Mostly I was referring to the non-sponsored people who might have thoughts of hiring a Vivaduan for water or healing for their hunters, or a Rukkian for foraging.  Average Amos likely has little protection if Oash decides they have issues with him using a mage or two.
At the same time, I think it's fairly silly that Oash would be at all concerned with what some lowly commoner is doing.  Doesn't mean it would be the first (or last) time that some high-status fancypants character took notice of a nobody who wasn't actually threatening at all.

All that being said, I'll keep you in mind and call you into the fray if I ever have need of someone who "ain't skirred". 

[TheWanderer]

Might be they're in the Upper Tier because trying to hard to knock down a peg the stuffy assholes who employ living weapons of mass destruction has not gone well thus far.

That touches upon the issue of why other equally literate Noble Houses of varying intelligence have yet to realize over thousands of years that having a cadre of superweapons in their basement is a sound idea. Secondly, Oash does indeed have an arguably small cadre of superweapons in their basement, but it's calmly and oddly brushed aside by nobility that should be frustrated and/or irritated by this. An Oash receives little to no backlash for blatantly violating the social norms of today, as a, for instance, Fale, Kasix, or Tor would for openly congregating with the gemmed. The latter three would become total pariahs amongst their families and friends. The same is true for members of Merchant Houses or commoners that would try their hand at it.

It wouldn't be overly difficult to knock a House commiting an unceasing and blatant social faux pas down a peg in an entirely social construct like the Tier System. Especially considering how miniscule the cadre Oash has in its possession actually is in relation to population numbers. And lastly, despite the size of their operations and relatively minimal portion of the House that actually deals with the gemmed, it's similar to a red wine stain on a white shirt. Although small, you'll be transfixed by that blemish for the entire night.

The unsightly use of mages for research or whatever makes much more sense in the Lower Tier.

[Asmoth]

More of a meta type thought I think people need to consider.  Don't be scared to do shit that's against the grain, we as players are the exceptional lot, the one percent of personalities, if anyone can figure out that hiring a magicker is smart and valuable it's us, not Joe shitscooper vnpc for sure.

Not saying do everything to flaunt anti-documentation play, but don't be "skirred". After all it's easier to be forgiveness than permission.

[Armaddict]

More of a meta type thought I think people need to consider.  Don't be scared to do shit that's against the grain, we as players are the exceptional lot, the one percent of personalities, if anyone can figure out that hiring a magicker is smart and valuable it's us, not Joe shitscooper vnpc for sure.

Not saying do everything to flaunt anti-documentation play, but don't be "skirred". After all it's easier to be forgiveness than permission.

...my concerns were clearly unfounded.

[Asmoth]

More of a meta type thought I think people need to consider.  Don't be scared to do shit that's against the grain, we as players are the exceptional lot, the one percent of personalities, if anyone can figure out that hiring a magicker is smart and valuable it's us, not Joe shitscooper vnpc for sure.

Not saying do everything to flaunt anti-documentation play, but don't be "skirred". After all it's easier to be forgiveness than permission.

...my concerns were clearly unfounded.

I'm not saying everyone hug mages... But I'm saying don't sacrifice roleplaying.

[racurtne]

What?

If everyone plays people who use magickers, the reality is that the documentation means nothing. Staff can't animate enough vnpcs to balance out all of that mage hiring. The reality of the game world will be altered. Roleplaying means playing a character who fits in the world. Playing a character who refuses to hire mages isn't sacrificing roleplaying, it's roleplaying a realistic character in the setting. When you deviate from the documentation too much, you are doing the opposite of roleplaying.

Sure your character can deviate a little here and there, but our characters are NOT all part of some DnD murder-hobo adventuring party who are out to utilize every advantage we can get. And not all PCs are above the common plebs and their superstitions. Apologies if that's not what you are getting at, but it certainly sounds like it.

[MeTekillot]

Might be they're in the Upper Tier because trying to hard to knock down a peg the stuffy assholes who employ living weapons of mass destruction has not gone well thus far.

entirely social construct like the Tier System

If the Tier System were an entirely social construct, I would agree.

[TheWanderer]

probably misspoke on that, but i'mma stick to the rest

*shrug*

[BadSkeelz]

Mages exist to be better than you.


If you don't hate and resent them for this you're a carebear.

[WithSprinkles]

Different mage subguilds all in harmony.

Come on people now.. smile on your brother, every body get together..

*flee!

[Dan]

Can mages now master-craft magick arms/armors as merchants?