Magickers and Nil Reach.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hey, split off the the World Discussion thread on Magickers here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50796.0.html

How do you feel about Nil reach? Personally I don't like that a Magicker can "fake" their spells in order to level them quicker.

You lost me. What does finding the right words have to do with un or nil?

1) Nil uses less mana than Un.
2) Nil can be used to figure out spell word combos without casting the spell with a "real effect".

But lets please get back on topic, we can discuss the worth of Nil in another topic!

Nil uses less mana than un? I'm fairly sure that's not true, but I could be misremembering. Neither of these two points are reasons that a Nil reach is required. I would even argue that figuring out new spell-word combinations when you branch a new spell should require using it to its full effect.

I like the idea of the Gem giving Nil reach. Because being gemmed can come with huge drawbacks. And Gemmed need some way to not have visible effects on them when they move around the city. Having to wait for them to go away sucks balls.

[evilcabbage]

do not discuss the finer points of magick please.

[FantasyWriter]

I play lots of magickers.  I seldom, if ever use nil reach out of principle, and probably most of my PCs have -never- used nil, and I've played all flavors before, so it is definitely not required.
I remember one good IC argument for nil and that was a preserver not wanting to use niliazi magicks "out loud" but wanting to explore their potential in case of SHTF emergencies.

Lack of 'nil' is not game breaking in any way, simply an OOC inconvenience to those who prefer the easy road.
A krathi/elkran should not be able to survive inside the magickers quarter or their hidden apartment for a few IG years, then walk out and Hiroshima a three block radius without ever having really experienced true magick.

I would like to see a code that would allow nil to branch from un at the same rate as a normal mundane skill if not even the same rate as a weapons skill, and THEN maybe have something else branch from nil.  This would give magicker players a long term goal to pursue since they normally hit the coded glass ceiling much earlier than combat PCs.  It would also slow the rated of magicker growth over time which isn't really bad for anyone.

A magicker out in the wild using their magick to survive -should- be stronger than someone who never left the city.
RL example: A mountain man will always be better at survival than someone who has spent all their life reading survival books and watching survival videos on YouTube.

[Pale Horse]

Edit: Nothing to see here.

[BadSkeelz]

Posting on the go, but what is my outlier option? I proposed the removal of nil over a month ago. I'll dig up my argument for that later.


In the meantime, Delenda est Magick.

[FantasyWriter]

Posting on the go, but what is my outlier option? I proposed the removal of nil over a month ago. I'll dig up my argument for that later.


In the meantime, Delenda est Magick.

Was wondering that myself

[RogueGunslinger]

It's the poll option intended to lure your vote away from the options for people who actually enjoy magick being in the game. Really though it's just a bad joke. 

[Jingo]

No. As the code stands, it would make all hidden/city bound magick unplayable.

Not to say that it's playable in the first place. It's a direction I don't want to see it move in.

[Beethoven]

I kind of like the idea and kind of don't. Nil is mostly for practice, but there are situations in which it can become interesting RP, especially for magickers who take a more ceremonial/spiritual approach.

[Patuk]

No. As the code stands, it would make all hidden/city bound magick unplayable.

Not to say that it's playable in the first place. It's a direction I don't want to see it move in.

Well, you're not wrong. Having both the current city magical omniscient defence thing and removing nil reach alike does seem like it'd be overkill.

[Pale Horse]

Move the Nil reach to be a branched skill.  Starting 'gickers would have to develop some skill with their innate abilities before they have the experience/ability to manipulate power to "no effect."

[BadSkeelz]

Thank you everyone who's voted for me without knowing what I was going to say. Let's Make Armageddon Great Again!

I'm in favor of restricting or getting rid of nil. I believe it has a negative effect on magicker code play, on magicker roleplay, and on their perceived place in the game.

From a code stand point, without getting in to whether it's better or worse for your skill progression, let's look at what nil actually lets you do: skill up in complete safety. This lets a magicker fully branch their guild with less risk than someone trying to skill up ride. If an assassin could sit in an apartment and repeatedly type >backstab (no target) for a few days and come out at master backstab, would any of us be cool with it? Of course not. It'd be ridiculous. Why are we cool with magickers being able to do it?

"Because some spells are too dangerous, or because it would lead to the death of the magicker." Good and excellent reasons to remove nil, in my opinion. Spells should be something dangerous and feared, not only by the populace but by inexperienced magickers themselves. A rogue mage should be nervous with these powers. A rogue mage should be fearful of being found out. Cities probably developed in Zalanthas partly to help normal people sniff out these dangerous freaks. Nil gives magickers a safety bubble to play in that no other character (except Red Storm tailors) is privileged to.

And what does this give the rest of us? It gives us magickers who hide in caves, apartments, and temples, grinding up their spells until they feel safe enough to announce themselves to the game world. It's rare to meet the inexperienced magicker, especially outside of a city. It's common to meet the powerful, dangerous, "respect me for I am branched" magicker. And because they're common, they become difficult to respect. They become difficult to fear. They're just another product of a twinky code, ambushing the rest of us and deforming plotlines by their presence. The best you can hope for is that their player is responsible or that they leave you alone.

I would like to see magickers working together, and with other characters, to master their powers. Give them a chance to talk, to experiment, to roleplay off of each other. Give them more incentive to be part of the game world other than a fully branched laser light show projector. Let them engage in the world earlier, so that they might die more... but also so that the powerful ones are truly feared and respected.

Because I want Magickers to be a part of the world and not just skilling up in isolation, I think the current restrictions on the Gemmed temples of Allanak need to be rescinded. Anyone wearing a Gem (or a Templar medallion) should be able to enter a temple and roleplay with whoever they find there. Give a chance for a community and culture to develop instead of a bunch of disjointed characters torn between wanting to interact and wanting to skill up.

An earlier post on the topic.

[Jingo]

And then you need to sit on your ass for three hours in a room, alone anyways. Because you wanted to practice your sul enchantment, waiting for it to wear off.

Once again this is not the way to fix magick in arm.

The real problem is that there isn't anything for magicker to do BUT skill in a cave and then terrorize the countryside. The game has become obsessed with isolating magick. And the result is isolated magickers.

[Pale Horse]

Thank you everyone who's voted for me without knowing what I was going to say. Let's Make Armageddon Great Again!

I'm in favor of restricting or getting rid of nil. I believe it has a negative effect on magicker code play, on magicker roleplay, and on their perceived place in the game.

From a code stand point, without getting in to whether it's better or worse for your skill progression, let's look at what nil actually lets you do: skill up in complete safety. This lets a magicker fully branch their guild with less risk than someone trying to skill up ride. If an assassin could sit in an apartment and repeatedly type >backstab (no target) for a few days and come out at master backstab, would any of us be cool with it? Of course not. It'd be ridiculous. Why are we cool with magickers being able to do it?

"Because some spells are too dangerous, or because it would lead to the death of the magicker." Good and excellent reasons to remove nil, in my opinion. Spells should be something dangerous and feared, not only by the populace but by inexperienced magickers themselves. A rogue mage should be nervous with these powers. A rogue mage should be fearful of being found out. Cities probably developed in Zalanthas partly to help normal people sniff out these dangerous freaks. Nil gives magickers a safety bubble to play in that no other character (except Red Storm tailors) is privileged to.

And what does this give the rest of us? It gives us magickers who hide in caves, apartments, and temples, grinding up their spells until they feel safe enough to announce themselves to the game world. It's rare to meet the inexperienced magicker, especially outside of a city. It's common to meet the powerful, dangerous, "respect me for I am branched" magicker. And because they're common, they become difficult to respect. They become difficult to fear. They're just another product of a twinky code, ambushing the rest of us and deforming plotlines by their presence. The best you can hope for is that their player is responsible or that they leave you alone.

I would like to see magickers working together, and with other characters, to master their powers. Give them a chance to talk, to experiment, to roleplay off of each other. Give them more incentive to be part of the game world other than a fully branched laser light show projector. Let them engage in the world earlier, so that they might die more... but also so that the powerful ones are truly feared and respected.

Because I want Magickers to be a part of the world and not just skilling up in isolation, I think the current restrictions on the Gemmed temples of Allanak need to be rescinded. Anyone wearing a Gem (or a Templar medallion) should be able to enter a temple and roleplay with whoever they find there. Give a chance for a community and culture to develop instead of a bunch of disjointed characters torn between wanting to interact and wanting to skill up.

An earlier post on the topic.

Good points.

I would point out that there are IG reasons for how the temples were restructured, as well as OOC ones.  Changing the one will require changing the other, which is within the hands of our Staff.

[BadSkeelz]

Believe me, it's kind of my fault the Temples got changed in the first place (If you count "not bothering to follow up suspicious characters carrying Loony Toon bombs into the temples" as my fault). I didn't like it then and don't like it now. As much sense as it makes IC, I think it's gameplay negatives outweigh the benefits.

[Pale Horse]

Believe me, it's kind of my fault the Temples got changed in the first place (If you count "not bothering to follow up suspicious characters carrying Loony Toon bombs into the temples" as my fault). I didn't like it then and don't like it now. As much sense as it makes IC, I think it's gameplay negatives outweigh the benefits.

I, too, am not a fan of the change.

However, I will also admit that that is just a gut reaction.  I have not played a magicker in a number of years, not since long before the razing of the temples.  My knowledge of IG dynamics in Allanak is limited right now and should probably be taken with a grain of (purplish)salt.

..Hell, I haven't even had a new character since the "starting shops" during character creation were put in and have no idea what they look like or what's in them other than "starting items like clothing and sundry starting-items."

[Jingo]

I honestly don't give a damn what the IG pretext is supposed to be. Preventing gemmed congregation is a play ability issue that makes the game needlessly unfun.

It's like closing the Tuluki Arena all over again.

[Armaddict]

I actually thought it would be cooler to have the gem limit the nil reach, so that there was some sort of incentive for the whole 'freeeeedom!' call for mages and thus more ungemmed, and thus more...involvement, from the city, in finding the ungemmed, and more plotz.

But then I couldn't think of a way to make it make sense that way.  Thought too far ahead.  Bah!

I will say the argument that mages need to be more integrated into society is old.  The segregation is part of the role, the same as half-elves being shunned, elves being hated, and so on.  *trails off into the distant world of every other magicker thread ever made, where that exact discussion has been had hundreds of times*

We probably shouldn't make this thread about that.

[Lizzie]

And what does this give the rest of us? It gives us magickers who hide in caves, apartments, and temples, grinding up their spells until they feel safe enough to announce themselves to the game world. It's rare to meet the inexperienced magicker, especially outside of a city. It's common to meet the powerful, dangerous, "respect me for I am branched" magicker. And because they're common, they become difficult to respect. They become difficult to fear. They're just another product of a twinky code, ambushing the rest of us and deforming plotlines by their presence. The best you can hope for is that their player is responsible or that they leave you alone.

An earlier post on the topic.

...and the rest of this particular post.

According to my list o-characters, I've had 32 characters, half of which have been mages. Out of 16 mages I've played in the past ten years, zero fit what you describe above. Most of the mages I knew of, what I've interacted with, were fresh out of chargen and newly gemmed. They showed up in the bar, found a templar publically, announced themselves to be what they were, got the gem publically, and everyone pretty much knew exactly what they were from that point on.

That's in Allanak.

Outside Allanak, most of them were secret, because they had to be secret for 100% IC reasons. Rogues are called rogues for a reason. Tribals were not secret, within their tribe and rarely stayed inside the relative safety of their tribe for very long before venturing out - at which point they weren't secret to anyone else in their tribe's territory either.

I use nil all the time when practicing certain spells. It takes me a LOT longer to branch than people who use it less often, but I really hate being stuck outside the gates for possibly hours just because I happen to have some visible magicks on and have no immediate way of getting them off. And - some of those spells, even at the lowest possible power, can last a few real-life hours. The ONLY way to practice it without sequestering yourself for those same hours you complain we sequester ourselvers, is to cast at nil.

So really, the only people I can think of who are doing what you are complaining about, are the ones who are doing it at un, and *cannot* leave their caves, holes, temples, etc. until their spells wear off.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Going with "yes" here because I don't believe that changing nil solves the problem with magickers. If anything, I think it would add more problems.

The problem with magickers - as I see it, as people have voiced it in the past, and as I think people are hinting at here - is that they have a tendency to sit around in their temple (or hideout) spam casting spells while semi AFK for hours on end, and when they finally emerge after 5 days played they've fully branched and mastered their entire spell tree. Obviously I'm embellishing a bit, but this is the gist, no?

• 
  From the perspective of the mage this is bad because, before you can be codedly useful, you have to sit around by yourself spamming rather than gaining friends or a sense of your character. Worse than that, if you actually do hang out with other mages, the scene is interrupted every 5 minutes by some dill hole whose mana just filled back up, and who couldn't possibly be bothered to have fun now and grind later when has nothing better to do.  
• 
  From the perspective of mundane players, this is a bad system because it means that mages can sit in a temple, isolated from the rest of the world, and become extremely powerful without ever having to risk their character once.

Removing nil altogether is a bad solution to these problems, because while it makes training your powers slightly dangerous (yes, only slightly) it makes the things you need to do to train them a bit ridiculous. And a good number of players will do ridiculous things to train, karma or not.

• From the magicker perspective, a few things happen. For your attack spells, you'll either need to blast yourself like some kind of masochist, or you'll need to wander 6 rooms west into the desert and blast chaltons like some kind of sadist. Same goes with buff/debuff type spells. If you're casting attack or debuff spells on yourself you'll be wanted and have to spend even more time sitting alone in your temple to wait out your crimflag timer. If you're casting buff spells on yourself, you'll have to spend even more time sitting alone in your temple waiting for the effects to wear off. So either you end up behaving like a fucking retard, or you end up spending more time alone. Neither is good.
• From the mundane perspective, we'll have to find IC ways to voice our concern that the mages have all combined into some kind of antelope hating cult. Every time you go out to hunt, expect to look west and see someone blowing up a fucking antelope like an even more deranged version of Tim from Holy Grail... Don't kid yourself, mages won't go out and attack something dangerous like a scrab. They won't go any further from the gates than they have to, and they will fight chalton because chalton aren't dangerous. You'd do the same thing. It'll be the new weighted stilt lizard boxing grind maneuver, and you won't like it.

Making nil a branched reach is a little less bad (not to be confused with "better") because at least it leaves a legitimate path to branching which doesn't involve Donald Trump levels of chalton hatred.

• From the mage perspective this means that you'll have to sit around in your temple casting buff spells on yourself and waiting hours for them to wear off before you can go out to do anything fun. Once you've finally buffed yourself with "un" enough times to branch "nil", you can finally start casting your attack spells safely. This doesn't necessarily make it harder to grind in total safety, it just makes it take longer and thus makes you feel more isolated.
• From the mundane perspective, this slows down branching by like 2-3 days played TOPS. However, it doesn't eliminate the "risk free" option of grinding. Also, it will still result in chalton blasters as not everyone will want to wait that long to start working on their attack spells.

Making Nil a perk of the gem is a simply horrendous idea. Gemmed mages already get a burglar-proof, quit/save temple where they can max out without any risk to their character. They don't need any more perks. The only way I would entertain this idea is if it was balanced out with significantly increased spell failures, or a sizable reduction in mana (currently the gem gives you slightly MORE mana), or a reduction in overall spell power. (Less damage, or less numerical buff/debuff, shorter durations, etc.)


What would I recommend? Probably nothing. I don't play mages that often any more because "the mage problem" as I described it simply isn't fun for me, most of the time. Something needs to be done, but I don't have many good ideas of what that is, admittedly. But nerfing nil will just cause more or different problems - it won't solve problems.

[Large Hero]

And what does this give the rest of us? It gives us magickers who hide in caves, apartments, and temples, grinding up their spells until they feel safe enough to announce themselves to the game world. It's rare to meet the inexperienced magicker, especially outside of a city. It's common to meet the powerful, dangerous, "respect me for I am branched" magicker. And because they're common, they become difficult to respect. They become difficult to fear. They're just another product of a twinky code, ambushing the rest of us and deforming plotlines by their presence. The best you can hope for is that their player is responsible or that they leave you alone.

An earlier post on the topic.

...and the rest of this particular post.

According to my list o-characters, I've had 32 characters, half of which have been mages. Out of 16 mages I've played in the past ten years, zero fit what you describe above. Most of the mages I knew of, what I've interacted with, were fresh out of chargen and newly gemmed. They showed up in the bar, found a templar publically, announced themselves to be what they were, got the gem publically, and everyone pretty much knew exactly what they were from that point on.

That's in Allanak.

In BadSkeelz' argument here, "announce themselves to the game world" does not mean "tells the population of Allanak that they are a mage". It means "starts to make their presence and influence felt in plots and in the game."

He's referring to this progression:

Start Play ----> Grind ---> Grind more ---> Grind more ---> Maxed (or close) ---> Plots.

He's saying the progression should look more like this:

Start Play ----> Interaction with other PCs and plots -> Maxed (or close) ---> More plots

He is saying that the gemmed mage in Allanak should not be able to just sit in the Temple and grind to max power. He's saying that the rogue mage should not be able to sit in 100% secrecy and grind to max power, and then start making waves.

BadSkeelz didn't call for a particular solution to the problem besides removing Nil (and there should probably be one). But your description of your gameplay corroborates his reasons for wanting it removed (though I don't think removing Nil would solve the problem).

[Warsong]

All that seems to stands in the way of removing nil is the fact that you can't easily get rid of spells you've cast on yourself. There's a litany of bulletproof reasons why nil is awful and completely gamebreaking, making a magicker literally the very easiest and safest kind of maxed-out character to obtain (aside from the hurdle of getting to play one, anyway), but without a way to cause that stoneskin you cast to go away again, removing nil would make it nearly impossible to play anything but a cave-sitting hermit. So instead of taking that as a reason to do nothing about this self-evident problem, the obvious solution seems to be to simply make it so that if you can cast a spell on yourself, you can also uncast it. It even makes sense, right?

[Rokal]

And what does this give the rest of us? It gives us magickers who hide in caves, apartments, and temples, grinding up their spells until they feel safe enough to announce themselves to the game world. It's rare to meet the inexperienced magicker, especially outside of a city. It's common to meet the powerful, dangerous, "respect me for I am branched" magicker. And because they're common, they become difficult to respect. They become difficult to fear. They're just another product of a twinky code, ambushing the rest of us and deforming plotlines by their presence. The best you can hope for is that their player is responsible or that they leave you alone.

An earlier post on the topic.

...and the rest of this particular post.

According to my list o-characters, I've had 32 characters, half of which have been mages. Out of 16 mages I've played in the past ten years, zero fit what you describe above. Most of the mages I knew of, what I've interacted with, were fresh out of chargen and newly gemmed. They showed up in the bar, found a templar publically, announced themselves to be what they were, got the gem publically, and everyone pretty much knew exactly what they were from that point on.

That's in Allanak.

Outside Allanak, most of them were secret, because they had to be secret for 100% IC reasons. Rogues are called rogues for a reason. Tribals were not secret, within their tribe and rarely stayed inside the relative safety of their tribe for very long before venturing out - at which point they weren't secret to anyone else in their tribe's territory either.

I use nil all the time when practicing certain spells. It takes me a LOT longer to branch than people who use it less often, but I really hate being stuck outside the gates for possibly hours just because I happen to have some visible magicks on and have no immediate way of getting them off. And - some of those spells, even at the lowest possible power, can last a few real-life hours. The ONLY way to practice it without sequestering yourself for those same hours you complain we sequester ourselvers, is to cast at nil.

So really, the only people I can think of who are doing what you are complaining about, are the ones who are doing it at un, and *cannot* leave their caves, holes, temples, etc. until their spells wear off.

bolded part captures exactly how I feel on the matter.

[roughneck]

I voted no. You can't learn to use a firearm without running some live ammo through that bitch!

[evilcabbage]

i once 'spamcasted' spells for about an hour.

i sent in a report.

i was noted for doing this, and did not do it again.

i emoted and used thinks every few minutes or so, just to not be afk.

i still got noted.

trust me, staff see this stuff.

you are not hiding.