Taking a look at dwarves.

[Patuk]

Other dwarves also tend to know mirukkim. Speaking a language not their first tongue may be normal for some(hi guys), but most people prefer their native language if they can help it.

[Desertman]

I don't know. I always felt race would be a more highly motivating factor for developing bonds with the "lesser races" in Zalanthas.

I have seen people voice here a few times that they dislike when a dwarf seems to be friends with another dwarf quickly because they are both dwarves.

The same goes for half-elves and elves. People seem to dislike it when they see it.

It has never bothered me.

Zalanthas is incredibly racist. In an incredibly racist society the minorities are almost always the ones who suffer the most at the hands of the majority.

When you have a group like dwarves, half-elves, and to a lesser extent elves who all struggle against that upper-end racism that shits on them regularly it seems like that would be a strong motivator to band together.

Think of it like prison which is an extremely violent and hostile racist environment.

Race matters a lot. You don't want to be the white guy who hangs out with the black guys. You don't want to be the black guy who hangs out with the white guys.

You stick to your own because in a highly racist and highly violent environment that is what people do.

Zalanthas is extremely racist and violent. I have zero problem with dwarves, half-elves, elves, even muls banding together more easily when they encounter each other.

It makes perfect sense to me.

(I might even argue I like it when they do it. I feel it adds realism and extra depth to the game world because it makes so much sense.)

Edited to Add: I'm not saying I want to see all dwarves and half-elves walking around hugging each other and calling each other cousin. That would be pretty fucking stupid. I am saying that I feel in general it is totally acceptable and should probably even be expected that the lesser races are known to more commonly end up banding together when the opportunity is right. If nothing else, at its very base core they have this single thought in common, "Well, everyone else shits on me for being a dwarf/half-elf/elf, but, you are one too, so if nothing else, you can't shit on me for that. That doesn't make us friends, but, it marks one checkbox off the list immediately that I don't have with anyone else.". It's sort of a leg up, so to speak, on a reason for not hating each other immediately. Any common ground when you are the one who gets shit on regularly by everyone else is a valuable commodity for anyone.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While I mostly agree with that, Desertman, I think for dwarves it has less relevance than for any other race at all. Anything that could hinder the dwarven focus is bad, and other kin can certainly hinder your focus because they have their own focus. Unless the focus the other dwarf has is either completely separate from your own and thus offers you no resistance, or is enough in line with yours that they help you achieve your own focus, I'd argue that out of all the races, dwarves are the least likely to congregate and the most likely to accept sub-optimal conditions in the company of other races in an effort to further their foci.

[Jihelu]

The whole 'people don't shit on you for race when you are the same race' thing works wonders for gemmed too tbh.

Well.
Depends on who is enslaved to the templarate that week I guess.

[Desertman]

While I mostly agree with that, Desertman, I think for dwarves it has less relevance than for any other race at all. Anything that could hinder the dwarven focus is bad, and other kin can certainly hinder your focus because they have their own focus. Unless the focus the other dwarf has is either completely separate from your own and thus offers you no resistance, or is enough in line with yours that they help you achieve your own focus, I'd argue that out of all the races, dwarves are the least likely to congregate and the most likely to accept sub-optimal conditions in the company of other races in an effort to further their foci.

This seems like a simple game of psychological numbers.

Does having no allies in the world help my focus? Yes or no? If yes, then fine, don't make any friends.

Does having allies in the world help my focus? Yes or no? If yes, then make friends with the people least likely to shit on you/that you can trust.

I would imagine MOST dwarven foci would to some extent not be hindered by the acquisition of valuable and useful allies and friends.

Why?

Because that just seems to make sense when it comes to raw numbers. Having friends and allies makes everything easier almost always unless your dwarven focus somehow is made easier by having no dependable help/fallback plan/allies/friends.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Not really my point, though. Of course that makes sense. In a vacuum, you'll gravitate towards those like yourself. However ...

... friends who understand me and help me follow my Path in five years, or outsiders who'll use me but I can achieve my needs in four years? For normally reasoned beings, it's the former, but for dwarves, it would often be the latter.

As I said, of all the races, dwarves would be the least likely to see companionship as an important thing.

[Desertman]

Not really my point, though. Of course that makes sense. In a vacuum, you'll gravitate towards those like yourself. However ...

... friends who understand me and help me follow my Path in five years, or outsiders who'll use me but I can achieve my needs in four years? For normally reasoned beings, it's the former, but for dwarves, it would often be the latter.

As I said, of all the races, dwarves would be the least likely to see companionship as an important thing.

That's all situational. The assumption being made for your situation to work is that somehow people who aren't dwarves are going to somehow be more useful to the dwarf in question in terms of achieving his/her focus.

Why? Why does that have to be the case? Why would it even be the case most of the time?

Maybe it wouldn't be the case most of the time.

It seems just as likely.

I think there is a strong argument that other dwarves who can show understanding towards dwarven impulses because they better understand them would almost always be better allies for focus achievement.

There are a lot of assumptions being made that may or may not be the case for each individual dwarf/group of dwarves/group of non-dwarf potential allies. All of the assumptions being made are in fact possibly not even representative of the game world.

The only assumption one CAN make that will almost always hold true is that people who are like you generally tend to better understand you and would potentially, as such, be more inclined to bond with you.

Why? Because that's reality.

[Miradus]

Well put, but also keep in mind that there should be room for a well-roleplayed dwarf to make simply the wrong decision about pursuing their focus. We don't always make the best decisions.

Like a college med student getting busted for pot possession on spring break. Bad decision that probably won't help their end goal much.

[Case]

I don't think half elves should be banding together with each other, first of all. half elves don't like themselves often enough, let alone being reminded of why they can't be whole by a bunch of other breeds. Banding up with elves or humans should be their goal, even if it's tumultuous.

Dwarves... can. If they bully/influence their children into the right foci after initially establishing a group that happen to be able to contribute to each other's, then they could totally start a tribe. Dwarves are highly brainwashable if gotten young and that's pretty much what they'd need to do. Force the youngins to have a focus of "support and maintain the tribe". I'd love to see this as a group or even clan IG.

And an effective celf clan.

[Patuk]

And an effective celf clan.

A what clan?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You're right, Desertman. Generally speaking, one could assume that dwarves could function better and be accepted in a dwarven environment, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. The only point I was making is that unlike the other races, and because of the foci, racial bonds would be less a factor for a dwarf in deciding the company they keep than it would be for anyone else, with the possible exception of half-giants. That's the only point, and it's the one you're missing the most. Foci before bond for literally every single dwarf. No other race has this driving need which trumps literally everything else.

As for half-elves, if I remember right, they can breed together, like half-giants. Technically, half-elves are their own race, unlike muls, whom are less a race and more along the line of one-offs.

[Desertman]

You're right, Desertman. Generally speaking, one could assume that dwarves could function better and be accepted in a dwarven environment, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. The only point I was making is that unlike the other races, and because of the foci, racial bonds would be less a factor for a dwarf in deciding the company they keep than it would be for anyone else, with the possible exception of half-giants. That's the only point, and it's the one you're missing the most. Foci before bond for literally every single dwarf. No other race has this driving need which trumps literally everything else.

As for half-elves, if I remember right, they can breed together, like half-giants. Technically, half-elves are their own race, unlike muls, whom are less a race and more along the line of one-offs.

Ahh, I see what you mean.

I agree with that. Their foci would absolutely be put above any sort of racial bond they might naturally be inclined towards.

If their group somehow conflicts with their goal and they reach an impasse on that front, "Goodbye group. You've lived out your usefulness.".

[Large Hero]

Well put, but also keep in mind that there should be room for a well-roleplayed dwarf to make simply the wrong decision about pursuing their focus. We don't always make the best decisions.

Like a college med student getting busted for pot possession on spring break. Bad decision that probably won't help their end goal much.

Dwarves can, of course, make mistakes.

I'm not sure the analogy you gave is illuminating, though. I don't think a dwarf would do something like smoke pot just to have fun.  "Just to have fun" shouldn't really enter the dwarven mind, unless their focus has to do with having fun. They'd never get involved with something totally ancillary to their goal, as in the case of a student with the goal of graduating from med school deciding to try pot.

When I think of a dwarf deciding what to do, I picture the red analysis screen from Terminator. "Object acquired: pot. Purpose: humans claim this helps them relax. I do not need to relax. Ever. Conclusion: completely ignore the existence of pot." They'd think about pot as often as they think about star-bellied sneetches.

...unless the med student was possessing pot with the intent to sell. I could see a dwarf doing that.

[Delirium]

Dwarves aren't robots, they're still humanoids that need occasional rest and rejuvenation.

"Object acquired: pot. Pot helps me relax. Relaxing will help me better focus on what I need to do once I have fully recovered my stamina. Conclusion: smoke this pot."

[evilcabbage]

objective: relax. pot helps me relax. i'm out in the desert. if i relax out here i will die and be unable to complete my focus.

but if i smoke pot i will relax faster.

i might die.

but i need to relax.


....

smoke pot

5 minutes later


a ruddy, brown-streaked mekillot has arrived from the north

the pot-smoking dwarf says, in sirihish,
     "hey man, don't get all up in my face..."

[Desertman]

Yeah, I don't think there is a problem with playing to the extreme but you need to understand it is in fact the extreme when you do it.

If you have a dwarf who's focus is to be the wealthiest dwarf in history, you have some options.

You can play the dwarf who pinches every single sid and would rather eat dirty tubers raw if they were cheaper than grilled and seasoned chalton steak for every meal.

That would be playing to the extreme. That could be fun. Hell I would do it. It sounds like a fun dwarf.

But you could also have the same focus and spend lots of money on the finer things as you go along. You aren't a robot. Your reasoning could be, "Yes my life goal is to be the wealthiest dwarf in history, and I'm on a good path to doing just that, and I'm going to enjoy that wealth along the way.".

The idea that you have to achieve your focus as quickly as possible is an interesting thought that I never considered but it seems to keep coming up in this thread.

In my example, why is becoming the wealthiest dwarf as quickly as possible a priority? Why is the "quickly as possible" variable even put into the equation?

(The same goes for be the strongest fighter, be the best baker, be the best mason, build a dwarven empire...whatever...)

What's the rush and why do we think there is some requirement to be in a rush in regards to the dwarven focus?

In my example, playing to the extreme and pinching every sid would be an example of rushing your focus completion.

Why couldn't that same dwarf say to himself, "Yes, I am going to be the wealthiest dwarf in history, and so long as I do that within the next fifty years and climb the ladder slow but steady and still enjoy my wealth along the way I will have had a good and fulfilling life I found enjoyable.".

That seems reasonable.

So long as you are still advancing your focus, no matter how quickly, a smart dwarf might reason that slow and steady wins the race.

[Large Hero]

No, they aren't robots. And of course, there's a lot of room for individual interpretation. I'm more aligned with the view that "relaxation" and "stamina" (in the mental sense of the word, that is, something that could be replenished by doing something fun or diverting)" are human ideas that may not apply to dwarves.

I picture it as being high on amphetamines and really, really wanting to clean. You might do it for 14 hours straight without resting, because that's all you want to do. Why not work until you sit down and instantly fall asleep? That's more efficient than needing to spend time relaxing.


I'm not making an argument, really. Not trying to say "this is how dwarves are, or this is how dwarves should be, because I am right."

Like I said, there can be a lot of interpretation. My opinion is that people may have more fun playing dwarves, and people around dwarves would have more fun interacting with them, if they were played as being less human and more alien in their behavior.

I played a dwarf that was pretty extreme in his singlemindedness, and had a lot of success with it, in terms of my own enjoyment and also feedback from others.

[Dalmeth]

If their group somehow conflicts with their goal and they reach an impasse on that front, "Goodbye group. You've lived out your usefulness.".

There's a question of what qualifies as a racial bond.  A non-dwarf might find the above behavior insulting, but a dwarf might just expect it.  Their foci might be a basis for constant formation of short-term, businesslike relationships, and then they drift apart to work on their focus.  This is good communication, and while dwarves may not appear to be social to our eyes, their respect for other's goals may contribute to more total social organization than what we would typically know.

In other words, dwarves may hang out with other races more, but when it comes to other dwarves, they cooperate with almost no effort.  In this way, dwarves can have more social bonds with other races but be far more at ease with other dwarves.

[Large Hero]

My previous post was more in response to Delirium's.

Re: Desertman's:

I guess all I'm trying to bring out, is that a more, not sure of the word - effective? Focused? (heh) Authentic? Role playing experience might be achieved if people are willing to get "crazy" with their dwarf. Less human.

When I think of a mind that is truly, utterly obsessed with a goal, to a literally inhuman extent, I just don't see them being content with "I'm on the right path to my goal! I've earned the right to kick up my feet and have a beer. I'll get back to <goal> tomorrow." I think of them as burning with the need to refine, to progress, to try new angles, in every waking moment.

"I just spent 12 hours mining. But...what if I changed the handle of my pick, to make it easier to swing? I have to have it done by tomorrow!" etc. Never really "resting."

Now, what I could see, is working hard all day, and then continuing to think intensely about the focus while the dwarf is "relaxing" their body. Working hard at mining, and then sitting and thinking about the pick handle while drinking.

It doesn't necessarily have to take the form of "rushing" or sacrificing the long-term in favor of a short-term frenzy of activity.

Like I said before, I want to stress that I don't think I'm handing out the Gospel here, or that everyone has to agree with me.

I just think that one solution to "most people play dwarves in an uninteresting way - as slightly obsessed humans that mostly act the same way as humans" - is to try playing them as being manically, inhumanly focused, every moment of play.

[Desertman]

My previous post was more in response to Delirium's.

Re: Desertman's:

I guess all I'm trying to bring out, is that a more, not sure of the word - effective? Focused? (heh) Authentic? Role playing experience might be achieved if people are willing to get "crazy" with their dwarf. Less human.

When I think of a mind that is truly, utterly obsessed with a goal, to a literally inhuman extent, I just don't see them being content with "I'm on the right path to my goal! I've earned the right to kick up my feet and have a beer. I'll get back to <goal> tomorrow." I think of them as burning with the need to refine, to progress, to try new angles, in every waking moment.

"I just spent 12 hours mining. But...what if I changed the handle of my pick, to make it easier to swing? I have to have it done by tomorrow!" etc. Never really "resting."

Now, what I could see, is working hard all day, and then continuing to think intensely about the focus while the dwarf is "relaxing" their body. Working hard at mining, and then sitting and thinking about the pick handle while drinking.

It doesn't necessarily have to take the form of "rushing" or sacrificing the long-term in favor of a short-term frenzy of activity.

Like I said before, I want to stress that I don't think I'm handing out the Gospel here, or that everyone has to agree with me.

I just think that one solution to "most people play dwarves in an uninteresting way - as slightly obsessed humans that mostly act the same way as humans" - is to try playing them as being manically, inhumanly focused, every moment of play.

Hey man I'm right there with you. I believe playing the extreme-end part of the dwarven focus would be more fun and more fun to be around personally.

I just don't think it has to be the necessary standard across the board or, "you're doing it wrong". (Which I understand isn't what you are saying. My reply was in general to the whole idea I've seen presented a few times by several people about rushing/completing your focus as quickly as possible.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dwarves are not robots, but they're awfully close. It's knowing when to do draw the distinction between being a robot and being a biological entity that makes the dwarven persona. It's a fine line, and I absolutely agree that the fastest path possible is an extreme. There are many ways to achieve things, and it's very possible for them to take a longer path to their goal. But dwarves are crazy, and that's something you have to realize as a dwarven player. You are obsessive about your focus to a level that no other race can comprehend.

You are a crazy person.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think the robot comparison is very useful. That word has a lot of connotations that obviously don't apply. Dwarves aren't emotionless, the aren't tireless, they aren't purely logical, they aren't incapable of producing art or abstract thought.

Also, dwarves are necessarily internally alien. That doesn't mean they need to be obviously externally alien. Surely for many (or even most) dwarves, effective assimilation into human-dominated society is important and useful for their focus. Some dwarves might be better at this than others, and some might not care either way.

It's a little worrying to see the effort by some here to narrowly circumscribe how dwarves must be played to be correct.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I like the point Large Hero (and others) make about dwarven focuses being alien. I've actually never thought of it to quite that extent, because I'm a lowly human, but I agree that it should be just a step beyond what other races understand as being "driven", or even "obsessed". I don't like the "robot" line of thinking though. They're focused, but not single-minded. If your focus is to catch the Man in Black, but doing so means letting Jake fall to his death, you can still save Jake, reasoning that you'll have another opportunity. It should never be an easy decision, but it's still a valid option for you to take.

Last weekend I was reading through this old AD&D Dark Sun box I found at a used bookstore, and a couple things stood out in reading the description of a dwarven focus; it must be take at least one week to complete (anything less is a task), and dwarves get morale bonuses to rolls made on tasks relating directly to their focus. The interpretation of the last part, to me, means that you are a cut above a regular obsessed person. If you and an insanely focused human were both in the gym working on your goal/focus of "having the biggest biceps", and you both had the same stats, you would stay 10 minutes later and bang out an extra set of curls more than what he would or could do. You wouldn't stay all night, and roll right into the next morning, but you could go that extra mile beyond what a person of the same ability could.

The other thing was the "at least one week." I don't know about ya'll, but most of my focuses tend to be grand in size. I'm trying to kill one of everything in the Known, not "Kill a Salt Worm." Or I'm trying to "start a dwarven empire", not "rent an apartment with an all dwarven lease."  Does / has anyone ever played a dwarf whose focus is relatively small? How was it?   

[Large Hero]

I like the point Large Hero (and others) make about dwarven focuses being alien. I've actually never thought of it to quite that extent, because I'm a lowly human, but I agree that it should be just a step beyond what other races understand as being "driven", or even "obsessed". I don't like the "robot" line of thinking though. They're focused, but not single-minded. If your focus is to catch the Man in Black, but doing so means letting Jake fall to his death, you can still save Jake, reasoning that you'll have another opportunity. It should never be an easy decision, but it's still a valid option for you to take.

Last weekend I was reading through this old AD&D Dark Sun box I found at a used bookstore, and a couple things stood out in reading the description of a dwarven focus; it must be take at least one week to complete (anything less is a task), and dwarves get morale bonuses to rolls made on tasks relating directly to their focus. The interpretation of the last part, to me, means that you are a cut above a regular obsessed person. If you and an insanely focused human were both in the gym working on your goal/focus of "having the biggest biceps", and you both had the same stats, you would stay 10 minutes later and bang out an extra set of curls more than what he would or could do. You wouldn't stay all night, and roll right into the next morning, but you could go that extra mile beyond what a person of the same ability could.

The other thing was the "at least one week." I don't know about ya'll, but most of my focuses tend to be grand in size. I'm trying to kill one of everything in the Known, not "Kill a Salt Worm." Or I'm trying to "start a dwarven empire", not "rent an apartment with an all dwarven lease."  Does / has anyone ever played a dwarf whose focus is relatively small? How was it?    

I'll try to be clearer on the "robot" thing.

Of course, they aren't robots. They don't think in machine language. When I play a dwarf, I don't type "think Target acquired. Relevance to focus: 39%. Acquire for further testing."  

However, like a robot programmed with a singular purpose and some advanced AI, I try to spend every moment I play my dwarves thinking about the focus. I think it's appropriate for a dwarf to be completely set on the focus with every thought, from waking to sleep. They don't get tired from thinking on it. They don't need to rejuvenate their brain, to refocus, like a human might after 8 hours on a single task.

Because they aren't human.

It clicked for me when I realized, hey - dwarves probably have a different brain structure.

It's funny you bring up the Man in Black example, because - if the dwarf's focus is "catch the Man in Black?" Unless saving Jake is critical to that mission (maybe he has some important information about the Man in Black, without which I can't catch him), I'd think a dwarf would let Jake die 100 times out of 100.

There's just no point in saving him, unless it helps fulfill the focus. That's another thing related to the "robot" idea. When I play a dwarf, I just don't give a damn about any other living thing unless they're important to the focus. The dwarf understands they're living, sentient beings, sure. But they're as important as other figures in a dream when you know you're dreaming. Or as important as enemy robots (there's that word again!) in a cartoon where robots are the bad guys so the protagonists can kill them without thinking. (Of course, not every dwarf has to be this sociopathic. But it certainly makes sense to me. Humans tend to be ruthless with other humans, when they get in the way of an important goal. I can only imagine what a dwarf would do, or think, about those who are a hindrance, or even irrelevant, to the goal that consumes his life).

If Jake isn't important to the dwarf's focus, it's like saying "Should I continue chasing the Man in Black, or save this meaningless pot of shit falling into the chasm?"

Again, these are just my opinions. But I have thought about dwarves a lot, and they're probably my favorite race to play. I don't often play them because it drains me, the human, to focus like that. Because I'm not a dwarf.  

[solera]

That is similar to what I imagine a psychopath to be?