Taking a look at dwarves.

[Miradus]

And that's where the natural anarchist in me starts raising objections.

If I come up with an idea that is literally so fun that EVERY SINGLE PLAYER wants a piece of it in some way, then who is anyone else to say that we can't do that?

It might go on for a week, or two weeks, or even a month before people start getting bored with it and wander off. At the end of it you're going to have that 4-6 hardcore players involved, but mostly everyone is going to go back to pursue their own interests later.

It's an artificial limit which I don't feel is in keeping with the game as it was originally sold to me as ... a "no limits" sort of campaign.

It makes it feel as if the staff stories are more important and supported than the player stories, and I don't like that idea very much.

[Desertman]

The key is to get staff support for your player stories, most of the time. It can go a very long way.

I recommend frequent player reports and the ability to speak diplomatically in said reports and take direction/follow the path you will be set on.

[CodeMaster]

What the?  If there were 20 dwarf PCs around interacting with each other I'm sure staff would support them.

[Jihelu]

No humans allowed club.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I'm going to try and say this as neutrally as I know how...

It's an artificial limit which I don't feel is in keeping with the game as it was originally sold to me as ... a "no limits" sort of campaign.

Some fanboy over sold it to ya. There's not a lot of limitation where it comes to what you can codedly or socially do. Ie, if you want to start a "dwarven empire" you could maybe get 10 dwarf PCs to play along and come live out in the desert with you. But it would be a cave, abandoned fort, outpost, or whatever that was there already. There's no evidence in recent history (that I'm aware of) to suggest that the ten of you could, say, build a fort just because you devoted a couple IRL months to RPing stacking rocks up together. (Not that that specific thing has ever been done, to my knowledge.)

I think the closest I've seen is one PC, who played a noble for 2 IRL years or so, managed to build a bar. But that bar is closed these days. (At least in its capacity as a bar.)

It makes it feel as if the staff stories are more important and supported than the player stories, and I don't like that idea very much.

For better or worse, this is the case. Every few years a plot involving a "raider clan" of NPCs will pop up, and they'll get a little tent city out in some corner of the wastes they can use as a base. If you start a "raider clan" of PCs, your home base is going to be the bar in Red Storm.


I'm not saying these things to be mean or disparaging, that's just the way it is. Arm has an active playerbase of (presumably) at least 100?  If you want to solo RP building a cabin, I know of at least one RPI open right now where you could do that thing. It's got a pbase of maybe 10, so it's builders have a little more time to accommodate that.

[Jihelu]

I'm going to try and say this as neutrally as I know how...

It's an artificial limit which I don't feel is in keeping with the game as it was originally sold to me as ... a "no limits" sort of campaign.

Some fanboy over sold it to ya. There's not a lot of limitation where it comes to what you can codedly or socially do. Ie, if you want to start a "dwarven empire" you could maybe get 10 dwarf PCs to play along and come live out in the desert with you. But it would be a cave, abandoned fort, outpost, or whatever that was there already. There's no evidence in recent history (that I'm aware of) to suggest that the ten of you could, say, build a fort just because you devoted a couple IRL months to RPing stacking rocks up together. (Not that that specific thing has ever been done, to my knowledge.)

I think the closest I've seen is one PC, who played a noble for 2 IRL years or so, managed to build a bar. But that bar is closed these days. (At least in its capacity as a bar.)

It makes it feel as if the staff stories are more important and supported than the player stories, and I don't like that idea very much.

For better or worse, this is the case. Every few years a plot involving a "raider clan" of NPCs will pop up, and they'll get a little tent city out in some corner of the wastes they can use as a base. If you start a "raider clan" of PCs, your home base is going to be the bar in Red Storm.


I'm not saying these things to be mean or disparaging, that's just the way it is. Arm has an active playerbase of (presumably) at least 100?  If you want to solo RP building a cabin, I know of at least one RPI open right now where you could do that thing. It's got a pbase of maybe 10, so it's builders have a little more time to accommodate that.

Whats the RPI? Interested tbh

[Miradus]

I'm going to try and say this as neutrally as I know how...

Be at peace, brother. It is what it is.

I am not the one to lead that fight, considering my main contribution to the game thus far is some 40+ scattered ranger corpses throughout the wilderness.

But I feel the lack. That's all I'm saying.

[JackGibbons]

I'm going to try and say this as neutrally as I know how...

Be at peace, brother. It is what it is.

I am not the one to lead that fight, considering my main contribution to the game thus far is some 40+ scattered ranger corpses throughout the wilderness.

But I feel the lack. That's all I'm saying.

I like how this could mean either PK or noob death champion 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I am not the one to lead that fight, considering my main contribution to the game thus far is some 40+ scattered ranger corpses throughout the wilderness.

But I feel the lack. That's all I'm saying.

Never underestimate how much coming across a corpse (aka "jackpot") in the middle of the wastes can brighten another player's day. :p 

There's no fight to lead. It's a fight that's been fought a dozen times. As Synth said in the strength discussion thread "Hey, it's time for this one again."  But that doesn't mean its bad. I'll say that of my 10-12 year Arm career, I've seen the most exciting and positive growth taking place over the last 6 months. So staff are doing a bang up job lately, even if that one itch isn't being scratched.

What were we supposed to be discussing again? Dwarves?

[Desertman]

What were we supposed to be discussing again? Dwarves?

You're God Damn Right.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

My most enjoyable dwarf I ever played was a Rukkian that had the focus of becoming a Legend. It was vague and silly at a glance but it took him on a journey. Over time he became powerful, made sure he hung around people he thought were the stuff of stories and mimicked alot of what they did, had special armor fashioned for him that made him look like a legend, he was a big showboat. He challenged truly legendary beasts, paid bards to follow him around and witness his deeds. He created a following that joined him under a particular banner, all die hard loyalists. One day a Templar congratulated him on something spectacular he did, giving all of that credit to his powerful magicks. This turned into him despising his element for stealing all of his 'glory' and led him to rebel against Ruk itself, he stopped using magick and grew to be a brutal fighter without it. Eventually his element actually turned on him and things REALLY got interesting.

If that was Enri, focus achieved. :p I remember being in the Cai Shyzn with him and the imms brought out <legendary beast from the region> with a room echo along the lines of "something massive flies over the valley, temporarily blocking the sun." And there was a scene where we were all going into full-blown panic/evac mode, screaming "get to da choppa' now!" at Enri, but he just stops and looks back with this conflicted look like he was going to try and chase that thing down himself.  Very well done example of how a dwarf can hint at their focus through RP. I always wondered about that emote, and 6+ years later it finally makes sense.

In a way, it's kind of sad that legendary characters don't stick around as legends. Back in the old days you had Khann, Moire and Ysania, etc. who were characters, for their time, may not of all been that special. I wouldn't know, I wasn't around and have only ever heard of them 20 years later because there're streets named after them. There have probably been characters who worked much harder and achieved much more (relative to what "achievement" meant as a player at that time) who have all but vanished once the PCs who knew them died off. And in a way that might be an accurate representation of a world without literacy... but I kind of wish that docs would immortalize famous old characters as legends.  We can go to the docs and see that Tek buried Luir (or whoever it was) under "99 feet of stone" like 2,000 years ago, but there's nothing about, say, Samos.

[Bogre]

The more you inspire other dwarves subconsciously the more I feel like dwarves would be willing to join your cause.
Starting up a huge dwarven village that is trying to be a kingdom is going to put the thought in a dwarfs mind. So even if he completes a focus he might develop one saying "Become a great fighter for the dwarven empire" as a focus.
Or a younger dwarf might start with a focus saying "Join a dwarven empire"
Etc. etc.
I feel like over time you could get dwarves to completely be focused on a tribe or empire.
Otherwise I have no idea how a dwarven tribe would succeed in the first place.

This is my thought. Have powerful foci (and powerful dwarves) start to imprint on other younger or more impressionable dwarves. So you don't -have- to abandon your 'build an upside down 3/4 scale version of the pyramids on a Silt Sea island' for Thrain Ironsword's focus of 'take over Allanak', but you -could-. Then you add a -real- element of tension, conflict and surprise to the game. You never know -if- that dwarf is going to start accumulating dangerous plans or followers. Or, if it is going to completely harmlessly gather 2 other dwarves that build stone piles out in the desert.

[BadSkeelz]

If you let dwarves just ditch their focus for whatever seems cool at the moment (and that's what this would boil down to), then their roleplay really does become no different than any other character in the game.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just like a dwarf joining a clan, inspiring other dwarves to band together with you isn't stripping their focus, it's them using the tools of that organization in order to further your focus.

[Majikal]

My most enjoyable dwarf I ever played was a Rukkian that had the focus of becoming a Legend. It was vague and silly at a glance but it took him on a journey. Over time he became powerful, made sure he hung around people he thought were the stuff of stories and mimicked alot of what they did, had special armor fashioned for him that made him look like a legend, he was a big showboat. He challenged truly legendary beasts, paid bards to follow him around and witness his deeds. He created a following that joined him under a particular banner, all die hard loyalists. One day a Templar congratulated him on something spectacular he did, giving all of that credit to his powerful magicks. This turned into him despising his element for stealing all of his 'glory' and led him to rebel against Ruk itself, he stopped using magick and grew to be a brutal fighter without it. Eventually his element actually turned on him and things REALLY got interesting.

If that was Enri, focus achieved. :p I remember being in the Cai Shyzn with him and the imms brought out <legendary beast from the region> with a room echo along the lines of "something massive flies over the valley, temporarily blocking the sun." And there was a scene where we were all going into full-blown panic/evac mode, screaming "get to da choppa' now!" at Enri, but he just stops and looks back with this conflicted look like he was going to try and chase that thing down himself.  Very well done example of how a dwarf can hint at their focus through RP. I always wondered about that emote, and 6+ years later it finally makes sense.

D'awww, it WAS Enri. 

Thanks bro.

[Bogre]

If you let dwarves just ditch their focus for whatever seems cool at the moment (and that's what this would boil down to), then their roleplay really does become no different than any other character in the game.

No, you just have to watch this as closely as any other aspect of dwarven foci. You write very descriptive docs about the process and then that informs their roleplay. You have to trust players more than assuming they'll be like 'haha, u have a cool focus lets clan'. And if they don't, they get dinged like every other tenet-breaking RP faux pas.

It's like tests of elven loyalty. It may suit an elf to be 'in and cool' with another elf, but that's not the docs unless it's heavily roleplayed.

[BadSkeelz]

Because trusting players to play to docs and not take the easy road (wide focuses, smart half-giants, lizard-boxing, innumerable other sins we all do) has worked out well so far.

The documentation is already there. The best way to achieve something "Dwarfy" is to make a dwarf and start trying to roleplay to the fullest extent of their racial roleplay. Great roleplay will inspire others to rise to the level.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying skeelz. You think someone trying to get dwarves to join their group is bad because then they will play with shitty focuses or lose diversity of focuses?

[BadSkeelz]

I'm skeptical of there being a mechanism created for dwarves to just ditch their foci and latch on to whatever the player decides is a cooler one. "My focus was to become a great soap maker but this dwarven empire idea is neat so I will start to devote time to it, even if it isn't really going to to make it any easier to become a great soap maker."

I'm supportive of the notion that a dwarf with one focus might start a chain-reaction among other dwarves who determine "Assisting this dwarf will assist me in completing my focus." The goal remains the same, but the dwarf changes their path. I believe that's how they're supposed to work now anyway.

I also believe the state of dwarf roleplay (or at least the popular perception of it) is due to player actions more than any inherent problem in their documentation. They do give people a license to spar, but that's the barest level of dwarf roleplay. It might be the most numerically common but it's certainly not what I think of when I think of well-played dwarves I've encountered. So I'm just kind of skeptical of the whole notion of there being a problem in the first place.

[Kalai]

Dwarves who grow up as slaves often have foci related to their purpose as slaves.
Dwarves who grow up in cities may turn their focus on the city ...
Presumably, conditioning dwarves to join with a group is quite feasible, if you catch them young enough. They ... are a slave race.
I got interested in Arm while playing dwarves, so am biased against karma. My early dwarves had crazier focuses anyway (as I figured out what was and wasn't crazy in the world).
Anyone who practices martial arts has license to spar, except my dojo phased it out for safety reasons, somewhat to my disappointment.  We don't really have coded reflection of training with your equals without sparring, though, to my knowledge (you can emote it, but that only satisfies so much before the disagreement with coded reality starts to grate).

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I usually write my dwarves' focuses as a product of their upbringing. If it's hunting based, they were probably raised as hunters. If it's stone based, they were probably miners. If it's conflict based, they were probably bullied when they were young. If it's wealth based, they were probably in awe of a rich dude they saw sometime. Etc.

Docs don't really make it clear where focuses start, but Im willing to bet most of us treat it as nurture, not nature. At that rate, I don't think it's impossible that there could be a tribe of dwarves who are homogenised to the point that their foci would all be similar. Or at the the very least, not terribly conflicting.

Look at other tribes. Say, Akai Ta Var. They're all a bunch of nature loving tree huggers with beliefs that deeply ingrain their members with values of conservation. It's not out of the question that an elf might do something to put him at odds with that upbringing. In fact, I can recall 2 times in the ATV where we ostracized, and even flat out disowned, members of the tribe for conflicting with those ideals. But that's an exceedingly rare occurrance. If they were a dwarf tribe, it would be rare to see someone with the focus to "be the best hunter by killing everything always." And if you tried to be that dwarf, you wouldnt get your app approved.

[Zoan]

I think buffing dwarves with fullstops and initial capital letters would go a long way towards their acceptance in roleplay.

I feel this would disrupt the meta too much.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a badly-played dwarf, but then again where I'm playing they're rarer now for some reason, and the few I've gotten in deep with had a great grip on their foci. I don't care what their foci is so long as they've got a great grip on it. Just because its more convenient or easier or more to the player's taste to have a fighting-based focus, making the focus fairly common, doesn't mean to me that its a bad focus. If you roleplay the obsession well you should do okay.

[Inks]

What erdlus said.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A dwarf would probably have a "They understand me" bond with other dwarves. Aside from that, however, dwarves have no reason to congregate with other dwarves unless doing so would further or facilitate their personal foci. The "They understand me" part is a great reason to have dwarven friends, and I'd guess that there's also a measure of "Maybe I can get this like-minded person to help me achieve my reason for living" mixed in there too. While dwarves are tools to society as a whole, dwarves also view everybody else as tools to achieve what's important to them.

Now, with that in mind, a dwarven culture/society makes perfect sense, since any such successful group would be focused on the greater whole facilitating the individual. For instance, a single dwarf who had a focus of civilizing the nearest oasis could recruit kin who had focuses related or relatable to either hunting, building, exploration, protection, and nurturing. The hunter feeds the clan. The builder constructs dwellings or decoration or furnishings. The protector provides law and security. The explorer finds the ideal location and maintains tabs on the surrounding landscape. And the nurturer establishes mores for the clan to follow, and rules that govern the interactions of nearby tribes and outsiders.

Even the dwarf with the focus "I'll be the baddest badass ever" has a place here, since a dwarf's focus is part of the tool used to guide them to servitude. You'd just manipulate the dwarf into thinking that representing you as "the baddest badass ever" is where it's really at. Then you use that dwarf to be the big hammer when you need one.

I love the dwarven focus. Figuring out how it effects everyday life is by far my favorite thing in the game.