Taking a look at dwarves.

[Doublepalli]

I've played arm for a while now, and I like dwarves out of them all, and during my time, I've gathered some thoughts, and questions.

1: I think dwarves should be karma. Their focus is a huge roleplaying factor to the character, and is something that can easily be ignored, abused, or hard to play.

2: I've noticed dwarves have the potential to become absurdly strong, to the point of almost mul-like levels (when a dwarf can throw out 40 damage hits with wooden weaponry on armored opponents, you question dwarven strength, or armor/training weapon values)  and if a dwarf gets a good stat roll, they can own most humanoids in similar guilds. Just how strong are dwarves portrayed in game? Codedly, a dwarf with high str could potentially knock out, or even kill (in rarer cases) certain beasts, and all humanoids spare a half-giant, in one or two blows. The amount of weight a dwarf can lift compared to others, is a considerable amount more. Hence, why I've been wanting to determine a strength ratio. If a strong elf punched you, how would it feel? If a strong dwarf punched you, would stuff be broken? If a half-giant did, or a human? How should we react accordingly to dealing with the various arms of Zalanthas, because currently, alot of people can play off being alright, after being hit with a fist, or some weapon with brutal force. This is also another reason I believe dwarves should be higher karma. all the high str races are karma spare dwarves.

3: Endurance. It says dwarves are very sturdy, to the point of having increased resistances to poisons, yet in every encounter I've had with poison, playing a dwarf, well the resistance doesn't really seem to take effect. I've also noticed sturdy humans tend to be just as sturdy as any dwarf with a decent endurance roll (or even good ones). Is their endurance accurately portrayed?

4: In-game, with each of the second class races, there's something people, mainly humans don't like about them. With the breeds and elves, self-explanatory. Half-giants, real stupid and able to killz so eazy. Muls due to their immense strength, danger, and fabled rage, more so fear. What do humans dislike about dwarves? Mostly in game, unless people are on shade mode, I've noticed no one seems to hold actual negative views on dwarves, other than them being short.


So, discuss! Should dwarves be karma? Should their endurance be more accurately portrayed? Just how -is- dwarven strength portrayed in-game? Dwarven focus - complicated, or easy? Another reason for karma perhaps?

[Beethoven]

I don't know about all the karma or strength stuff but I would think that the reason that humans would dislike dwarves would be because they are unpredictable. Of course, in some ways they ARE very predictable because they are so focused on a single goal and you can always know that whatever they do will be in pursuit of that goal, but you might not always know what that goal is...it could be something absolutely insane. Also, since the dwarf is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their focus, people should be on their guard around such a creature. If they decide they need to step on you to get what they're after, you'd better watch out.

[Marauder Moe]

Nah.  Poorly-played dwarves aren't that disastrous and newbies rarely live long enough to truly leverage a dwarf's stats.  Also I feel like they're pretty important to rounding out the newbie character options.

Endurance, in general, could probably use some tweaking.  I was very underwhelmed by the HP range on muls and half-giants too.  Might be nice if, indeed, endurance had some more secondary perks.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with all of the points in the OP. 1 Karma for dwarves. If only just to limit how many of them are in-game at any given time.

HOWEVER. I think it's a bad idea to take option away from newbies.

So I'm conflicted.

[Jingo]

I don't really see the point of dwarves from an rp standpoint. I can get foci, but I don't see the point unless it's some sort of bizarre off-kilter focus.

For literally anything that isn't "crash the moons of zalanthas together" I'd just play an extra driven human.

[Beethoven]

The fun thing is that the dwarven mindset can lead dwarves to do insane things for the sake of even a seemingly boring and ordinary focus.

[Kryos]

Perhaps flopping mundane desert elf and dwarf karma restrictions, to keep options open?

Their stats do stand them apart, some times dangerously, and their focus is a huge pointer to why they are alien, not human.  This is why most humans should/could react to a dwarf differently.  A clever non dwarf might try to manipulate one by attempting to discover (if they have a baseline understanding) what drives them and guide them to align that dwarf to align to their personal motivations.  Or use it to see that dwarf dead if she is an obstacle.  Or be mystified by their obtuseness.  And so on.

That's my take on it anyway.

[roughneck]

1. The focus may be easy to ignore, but it's straight forward. It's not nearly as complicated, and doesn't take as much time playing the game to understand the concept of as it does to understand delf culture/history or other roles' place in the game. So, because they have no culture/history that is imperative to understand, I think entry level karma is fine.

2. The stats are dangerous, but not uber. They are a kind of slave race that make good workers and slaves... and they sort of get treated like that. Military roles aside, you don't see them in leadership positions as often as humans. Also, good stats alone can only take a PC so far.

3. Endurance is accurately portrayed if you do some easy comparisons over several characters, it will be obvious.

4. They have clan limitations, and are generally treated as tools, IMO. If I could have one wish, though, it would be that dwarves were truly considered an kind of slave race and almost never made it to leadership positions in clans established by humans, instead being treated as a talking, trusty mule or attack dog.

[hyzhenhok]

I probably would never have gotten into the game if dwarves were 1 karma. Not only are they my favorite fantasy race, but I think it's insulting to suggest that the Focus is so difficult to roleplay that we don't trust players who make it through the application process with it.

...and obvious "problem dwarves" in the game are hardly ever newbies. Perhaps stronger staff oversight to make sure focus roleplay is being adhered to is warranted, but the karma gate will accomplish little and cause harm.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't think they're complex or dangerous enough to warrant a karma level. Dwarven strength is considerable, but it's not HG or Mul levels of crazy. A human with a high strength role will hit nearly as hard. I think a big part of "dwarven strength" is that dwarves seem to skew toward warrior more than any other 0 karma race. So you've got dwarven strength buff + warrior strength buff + strength priority in confluence.

Actually, I don't see why they have a strength bonus at all, tbh. Sure, they're pound-for-pound more muscular than a human... but they're also 4 feet tall, so I feel like it should even out. But as it is they get these beefy strength bonuses, so their players, and those around them, get delusions that they're "massive" or "hulking", despite the fact that they're actually just balder, more domesticated versions of Danny Devito...  But that's my pet peeve.

As far as racism, what I see most often is people prodding at the consequences of the focus. Dwarves being unpredictable or unreliable because of it. Focuses seem to be mostly harmless to bystanders, so I don't think they get as bad a rep as things like elven thief culture, or half-breed moodiness. Focuses that have detrimental effects to friends and employers aren't terribly common. The other reason one could be racist toward dwarves, culturally, is because they sacked Allanak at some point in the distant past. (Or at least sieged it for a while - I don't recall.) That's the Arm's reason for not recruiting them, but I"m pretty sure they're the only clan who doesn't.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Perhaps stronger staff oversight to make sure focus roleplay is being adhered to is warranted,

It would be nice if focuses had to at least be achievable, so that people couldn't take the old "b tha tuffest" or "find the six-fingered man who murdered my father" cop-out routes just because they want to roleplay a strength score, without the roleplay...

[hyzhenhok]

Perhaps a requirement that after you have rolled 4 or 5 dwarves, at least one needs to have gotten killed due to stupid, single-minded pursuit of the focus or else the option is removed.

Actually, locking the dwarf option after you roll one until you submit a post-death/storage report explaining the dwarf's life and how he pursued his focus, and how much progress he made, seems almost reasonable to me.

[Desertman]

Perhaps stronger staff oversight to make sure focus roleplay is being adhered to is warranted,

It would be nice if focuses had to at least be achievable, so that people couldn't take the old "b tha tuffest" or "find the six-fingered man who murdered my father" cop-out routes just because they want to roleplay a strength score, without the roleplay...

You're God Damn Right.

[Delirium]

related,

If you're a dwarf or a half-giant and you carry around a chest or a crate like it's a magic floating box, know that I think you are one cheesy motherfucker.

[Desertman]

related,

If you're a dwarf or a half-giant and you carry around a chest or a crate like it's a magic floating box, know that I think you are one cheesy motherfucker.

Hold on, imma' let you finish, but you're god damn right.

[Inks]

Dwarf focus has always been one of my favorite things, I love playing them and their obsessive mindset. There is nothing wrong with dwarves with a "get badass" focus but it isn't so much my bag.

People tearing at dwarves are people who I know never play dwarves. They are really interesting to RP for me.

That being said I have always been on the 1 karma bandwagon.

[Jihelu]

Dwarves and half giants spawn with chests

[roughneck]

related,

If you're a dwarf or a half-giant and you carry around a chest or a crate like it's a magic floating box, know that I think you are one cheesy motherfucker.

Hold on, imma' let you finish, but you're god damn right.

What if I rp an HG who skips and swings his crate alongside him like a picnic basket?

Really though, it stems from only being able to carry two items. Players would rather deal with the foolishness of a floating, mary-poppins-handbag style crate, than fuck around with their inventory all session.

[Doublepalli]

Actually, I don't see why they have a strength bonus at all, tbh. Sure, they're pound-for-pound more muscular than a human... but they're also 4 feet tall, so I feel like it should even out. But as it is they get these beefy strength bonuses, so their players, and those around them, get delusions that they're "massive" or "hulking", despite the fact that they're actually just balder, more domesticated versions of Danny Devito...  But that's my pet peeve.

I think the reason behind their strength bonus is simple. It's much much easier for someone short to fill out their form, (if putting on muscle or weight) than for someone tall to do it. Short is also just naturally stockier and more balanced, grounded to the ground I should say. Dwarves, while 4 feet tall, and balder, are not humans in any way, shape, or form, other than being humanoids too. Dwarves are built different, that's the way I look at it. Their muscles are naturally bigger/stronger, their bone density is naturally thicker, etc.

Now, I've played high str humans as well, and from my experience, high str humans can hit hard, and high, even breeds or elves, but dwarves with high str pretty much take the mantle of considerably harder hits. I don't think dwarven strength is uber, no, but in all reality, to me, dwarven strength is just under it.

[roughneck]

Actually, I don't see why they have a strength bonus at all, tbh. Sure, they're pound-for-pound more muscular than a human... but they're also 4 feet tall, so I feel like it should even out. But as it is they get these beefy strength bonuses, so their players, and those around them, get delusions that they're "massive" or "hulking", despite the fact that they're actually just balder, more domesticated versions of Danny Devito...  

At 4 - 4.5 feet tall, and weighing 200 + pounds at the high end of the weight scale... that's hulking, or very fat. I don't really see how you could fight very well with that kind of stubbyness, but that's just an imagination thing. Definitely hulks... short hulks, but hulks nonetheless.  

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Hold on, imma' let you finish, but you're god damn right.

My, that's a handsome avatar you have there.


And I do play dwarves. A lot of them. The problem with "b tha tuffest" as a focus isn't that it's bad or unrealistic as a focus. The problem is that too many people use it as a cop out to play durf, train like hell, and not have to be interesting. I wouldn't mind a dwarf trying to be the toughest if it occasionally  manifested itself in anything besides sparring and finding a cool mask to wear. Like hearing that Sargeant Dragon-inked from the Arm is supposed to be an amazing fighter, and trying to convince him to duel you even though you're a random Byn Trooper. Or setting a series of dangerous tests. Anything but just using your focus to spar and not do anything interesting. Most dwarves I play with, even for an extended period of time, won't give out the slightest hint what their focus is, and to me that smells like someone playing a strength score. Sorry / not sorry.

[Warsong]

It's mostly just that the amount of stun damage that a bludgeoning weapon deals with a hard hit to the head/neck/body is so extreme that any race with extra strength is outrageously powerful. A dwarf with a sword isn't so much of an issue. One that does 100+ stun damage with a blow to the head is, and a 0-day dwarf with exceptional strength can do just that. I estimate that 50% of dwarven PCs are created for that reason alone.

[valeria]

Let's not turn this into a thread about criticizing other peoples' roleplay.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

What other type of thread is there?   

[Case]

I think buffing dwarves with fullstops and initial capital letters would go a long way towards their acceptance in roleplay.