Weight & Encumbrance (Split from RAT)

[BadSkeelz]

Good and very good strength on a human isn't that great in terms of encumberance, even with leather armors. You don't really need to be loaded with much more for it to suck. After all, just two good weapons can be pretty heavy too.

My above average strength human ranger carried only a single spear (and a knife) for good reason. Managing armor and encumbrance was also a challenge, but not an insurmountable one. It just meant he wore less than my Extremely Good human warrior. If I had gone on, I'd of had to change my playstyle as well (less melee, more ranger).

I don't think everyone should be able to carry two field weapons, wear a full set of scrab plate and not even need to pack their water on their mount. But the space between being able to wear "a lot of armor" and "no armor" seems very narrow. I don't know if I would risk melee combat wearing "no armor" and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. One of the reason skills like sneaking and assassinations developed was because not everyone has the means or ability to dress up in armor and go toe-to-toe with someone else dressed like that. Know who can kill things without needing to wear a lot of armor in Armageddon? Assassins.

Weapons and armor is heavy, yes. It causes us to do a lot of juggling to make sure our encumbrance level is right. That's annoying. But is it really a problem? Or is it realistic for weaker characters to have to compensate for their weakness?

It would be nice if we had some means of improving our stats in game (better diet, exercise) over long periods without it being a total dice roll.

[BadSkeelz]

I'll also admit that I never leave my arms or armor laying around my apartment while I go out clubbing in my new dugs because I'm paranoid someone is going to steal it all.

[Refugee]

It's pretty detrimental to a combat PC to have 4k worth of armor stolen because he put on clothing to go out for a night of drinking.  Now he has lost something that has taken him a long time to amass, that's critical to his life, and critical to making money to replace it. 

As long as thieves can sneak into apartments and carry out a full set of heavy armor without being noticed by apartment guards, and sell it in the bazaar without any chance of recognition or consequence, I think you have to give the warrior a bye for not wanting to leave it behind.

[BadSkeelz]

It's a great incentive to join clans, too, as their lockers are (generally) more secure.

[Refugee]

Yes indeed.

But it's unfair, I think, to cherrypick one thing for realism while disregarding the thoroughly unrealistic corollaries.

[Dresan]

The only incentive a clan needs is to simply be fun to play in....but thats another thread.

[Molten Heart]

IMO, Realism should be the goal when it doesn't detract from allowing players to engage in meaningful role-playing and is also fun.
Otherwise suspension of disbelief is required, it's always required.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I agree with BadSkeels, that a lot of the leather is questionably heavy. I tried to play out my last "gud" fighter as a speed fighter (I went "agi str" *gasp*) and thusly tried to purchase some decent-quality studded leather armor, only to find out that an obsidian studded leather vest was only a couple stones lighter than my beetle shell cuirass, and the pants... were heavier than both pieces of armor. Combined. It would be nice to have an initiative where players could bug questionable pieces of armor for weight reclassification.

Apart from that, the main problem I have with armor weight in Zalanthas is that your strength score is the only incentive to wearing lighter armor, as the documents suggest many should be doing anyways. I think I started a thread a year or two ago about this, but the only thing that seems to hinder combat or skill performance is the encumbrance score in your stat output.  What I would LIKE to see is something similar to D&Ds "armor check penalty" and "max dex bonus" systems, whereby heavy armor encumbers you and limits your movement, no matter how strong you are. 

In doing this, characters in heavier armors would have a reduced ability to climb, skin, sneak, shoot bows, and other agi-based skills. They'd also be less dodgy in melee combat, but hopefully having slabs of obsidian strapped to your wrists would compensate for that. As it is now, there's no coded incentive for us to play The Red Viper - the code only benefits The Mountain. Offensively, defensively, and otherwise. Which is sad, because there's a reason he chose to fight with a spear and light armor in that scene - because it's effective.

[Desertman]

I've never found this to be a major issue for me.

I had a human ranger with above average strength who wore full armor (leather-reinforced sandcloth, every body part covered), a bow, two swords, eight knives, two sheathes, a belt, a pack full of healing/medical gear, two light sources, a skin of water, a full quiver, and a couple of pouches with this and thats needed from time to time (coins, tickets, two sentimental trinkets). I'm probably even forgetting a couple of things.

My encumbrance stayed at manageable which never seemed to affect me in any noticeable way.

I never once thought to myself, "I sure wish I could get more stuff because this just isn't cutting it.". I had more than I needed on me at all times by a pretty wide margin.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but this seems like a non-issue for my play experience personally. If all of that gear wasn't enough to be considered "playable" with only above average strength on a standard human...you guys must be doing things I'm not doing.

[Dalmeth]

Best penalty to cover the encumbrance of heavy armor and its unwieldliness to wear : have all heavy armor torsos cover the <worn on back> slot.

From what I've seen and read, armor technology is not a range based on materials.  It always advances in terms of weight.  The less armor material weighs, the more you can put on there.

It is possible to make armor from linen that will make arrows significantly less likely to kill you (not protect you), but it involves gluing about 50-60 layers of linen together.  That's heavy, hot, and hard to move in.  It would be lighter and a lot less labor to use leather. You can also get even lighter and distribute the hard labor between more people if you make it out of iron.

So it might be best to assign an encumbrance level per race.  Stronger races can just wear rawhide and get armor that lasts forever at the expense of enormous weight.

Finer armor should probably be relatively delicate and require constant repair.   They don't need to cost much more, but the repair bill should be pretty hefty.

Just make them start getting nicked almost immediately to trigger people's OCD.

[BadSkeelz]

I agree with BadSkeels, that a lot of the leather is questionably heavy. I tried to play out my last "gud" fighter as a speed fighter (I went "agi str" *gasp*) and thusly tried to purchase some decent-quality studded leather armor, only to find out that an obsidian studded leather vest was only a couple stones lighter than my beetle shell cuirass, and the pants... were heavier than both pieces of armor. Combined. It would be nice to have an initiative where players could bug questionable pieces of armor for weight reclassification.

Well, one thing we should all remember is that studded leather armor is not something like motorcycle leathers, or leather clothing as we'd think of it. True leather armor is armor and quite heavy and bulky in real life. We shouldn't think of leather as light armor just because it's leather. Better to think of it as medium armor, which is probably the heaviest armor most Zalanthans would be able to afford.

True light armor is what Desertman described - leather-reinforced sandcloth. Which is essentially burlap with leather reinforcement, skewing closer to reinforced clothing that I think a lot of people think of when they think about leather armor. Anything less than that is clothing (which might have stealth bonuses) which could give maximum mobility (assuming the clothing isn't restricted - no ninja moves in a toga) but isn't something you could really expect to protect you.


I think there's a point on the strength scale where it makes more sense to forgo true armor almost entirely. I wonder if it's in the right spot - my Above Average ranger had a helmet, gorget, and chest piece of not terrible quality, and that seems about right to me.

Apart from that, the main problem I have with armor weight in Zalanthas is that your strength score is the only incentive to wearing lighter armor, as the documents suggest many should be doing anyways. I think I started a thread a year or two ago about this, but the only thing that seems to hinder combat or skill performance is the encumbrance score in your stat output.  What I would LIKE to see is something similar to D&Ds "armor check penalty" and "max dex bonus" systems, whereby heavy armor encumbers you and limits your movement, no matter how strong you are.

This is a fair point. I do think there are incentives for limiting your armor and keeping your encumbrance low, especially if your PC is not a super-strong one. I've not yet had the guts to go full naked in combat and see what happens. I'm a little leery of further penalties for wearing heavy armor, but I'll admit I'm biased here.

In doing this, characters in heavier armors would have a reduced ability to climb, skin, sneak, shoot bows, and other agi-based skills. They'd also be less dodgy in melee combat, but hopefully having slabs of obsidian strapped to your wrists would compensate for that. As it is now, there's no coded incentive for us to play The Red Viper - the code only benefits The Mountain. Offensively, defensively, and otherwise. Which is sad, because there's a reason he chose to fight with a spear and light armor in that scene - because it's effective.

I already believe your first 2 sentences here are true. Heavy armor (whether because of equipment-based debuffs or simply from encumbrance) do discourage you from wearing them while performing most agility-based activities. It's also harder to dodge while being encumbered. "Having slabs of obsidian strapped to your wrists" seems like a ridiculous compromise to me, given the weight of stone and how much more tiring that would be on your arms, but I'd definitely wear some sort of bracers.

I'll also disagree about the Red Viper fighting style not being possible. It totally is, I've seen it done, and I've even heard of people fighting giants using it... sometimes to no greater success than the Red Viper found. The fight was a much closer thing in the books; if the Viper had slipped up once he would have been cut in half. His fighting style was explicitly gladiatorial and flashy. He might have been equipped like a Dornish spearmen - medium armor (relative to the setting), shield, long spear - but if real life is anything to go on, actual Dornish spearmen probably do not fight with a bunch of acrobatics.

[Case]

Leather is hard to move in

Properly made plate armor is easy to move in (not that we have metals available)

[Synthesis]

I had a ranger with below-average strength...went around with no armor at all.  It was basically fine in PvE once his base D got some love, but I had prioritized agility, so he was really dodgy.  Never got into a PvP fight with him, but he wrecked Red Desert gith pretty hard.

Died in typical Northlands fashion:  bahamet to the face while AFK.  Nothing armor would've done about that.

[evilcabbage]

properly made plate armor (a full set) also was "maybe" 40-50 pounds?

and these were dudes who would run and jump and skip and hop and spar and play in these armors.

so.

yeah.

they were not 'heavily encumbered", it was probably more like lightly encumbered.

[nauta]

properly made plate armor (a full set) also was "maybe" 40-50 pounds?

and these were dudes who would run and jump and skip and hop and spar and play in these armors.

so.

yeah.

they were not 'heavily encumbered", it was probably more like lightly encumbered.

Well, strictly speaking, on Arm you can jump, skip, hop, and spar all while at unbelievably heavy. 

You just can't move very far.  (Unrelated, but I've always wondered why each round of sparring/fighting didn't take little whacks to your endurance or stamina or whatever that stat is.  Probably the answer is playability.)

[Molten Heart]

In regards to wearing armor, something more simple might be some kind of armor wearing ability. An ability like this might gauge how well someone carried themselves while wearing armor. This ability might improve after someone's been wearing armor for a while. It could just raise someone's strength but to avoid complicating the other things that strength effects, it could just make worn armor have less effect on encumbrance. Warriors would definitely get this ability, and possibly any mundane class to a lesser degree.

Of course this a code change and something staff would have to discuss as a whole and then have a coder create which is kind of a big deal, but as far as an idea I'm just tossing it out there to think about and maybe change or inspire someone else for another way to make game play more fun, realisic, and intuitive.


(edited for serial comma)

[Case]

In regards to wearing armor, something more simple might be some kind of armor wearing ability. An ability like this might gauge how well someone carried themselves while wearing armor. This ability might improve after someone's been wearing armor for a while. It could just raise someone's strength but to avoid complicating the other things that strength effects, it could just make worn armor have less effect on encumbrance. Warriors would definitely get this ability, and possibly any mundane class to a lesser degree.

Yeah I posted it earlier

[Molten Heart]

You're too smart for mine and your own good.

[Delirium]

That could be a cool perk for warriors (and to a limited, maybe mid-level capped extent, rangers and assassins).

That doesn't solve the issue of encumbrance though.

You start receiving pretty hefty penalties as soon as you get above "light" which severely skews benefits toward strong PCs.

That's why I suggested combining carry weight with endurance, since it'd best reflect the whole idea of being able to deal with the weight of your gear.

Por que no los dos?

[Synthesis]

I really don't like the idea of an armor use skill.  Reasons:

1.  It seems like a work-around for the real problem, which is seeming utter lack of quality control standards for item creation over the years.

2.  The guilds/subguilds that would get it at higher levels, realistically, are already gods of combat...and this would give them yet another advantage in that regard.

3.  "wearing of armor" as a skill seems...kind of stupid.

[Desertman]

I'm not sure what the coded penalties are.

I don't have access to the code.

I know I stealthed around at manageable and don't recall failing often/hardly ever. Master "Scanners" couldn't see me. Whatever the negatives are, they aren't game breaking in the least. I had average human agility, master sneak/hide, and stealth gear.

I'm sure the stealth gear helped a fair bit, my agility was shit, my skill was high. Either way, encumbrance at manageable wasn't something that couldn't be worked around to still be extremely effective.

[valeria]

It's not like you can't prioritize strength if you want to wear decently heavy armor.

I've never had a problem with leather armor encumbrance on any pc except my str-last delf merchant, and I prefer to roll around at easily manageable at the heaviest. It sounds like the one set of leggings described was probably bugged.

Not all PCs should be able to wear whatever armor they want. I think the balance is about right for most purposes.

[Synthesis]

It seems like it's a straight penalty to agility, because when you're encumbered, you also seem to fail more often at other agility-check tasks like crafting, climbing, and skinning.  It's not just a combat penalty.

[Delirium]

You also attack more slowly.

[Molten Heart]

It'd be good if there were more refined weights and measures in the game. Originally objects had a weight calculated in stones/kilograms, with no smaller units. So feathers, keys, rolling papers, scrolls, and other small objects would all weigh one kilo each. For the Americans, like me, a kilo is about 2.2lbs. That's can get messed up and staff fixed it to allow for smaller units of mass for objects. It'd be good if the objects were gone through with a fine tooth comb and adjusted, it's a big and boring job for someone on staff. I wonder if they wouldn't rather go rearrange their sock drawer. Personally I would't blame them.

Something else, there's no measure of volume in the game. Drink containers have volume but that's all. Objects volume is determined by it's weight. The limits of a container is set by the weight of the objects only, A twenty foot pole weighs only one stone it's going to fit into a backpack and it will close.  As far as realism goes, this is a pretty big flaw in the basics of the code. Is it a big deal? I don't think it is, but it also makes weight more than a measure of weight but also size. This complicates things. I don't know a good solution. It'd be nice if some things weighed less. Rather then most objects, especially larger objects like weapons and armor weighting 1 kilo/stone or 2 killos/stones, that they have more in variations in size/weight like  1.2 stones or 3.75 stones. Cutting out little chunks of weight here and there in each individual item could really add up and free up some extra muscle power for those packing around several of these items.