Weight & Encumbrance (Split from RAT)

[Case]

I really don't like the idea of an armor use skill.  Reasons:

1.  It seems like a work-around for the real problem, which is seeming utter lack of quality control standards for item creation over the years.

2.  The guilds/subguilds that would get it at higher levels, realistically, are already gods of combat...and this would give them yet another advantage in that regard.

3.  "wearing of armor" as a skill seems...kind of stupid.

Not really any worse than direction sense or something

Just a skill for something a bit less tangible

[BadSkeelz]

I'm still trying to pinpoint what exactly the problem is.

Going back to your Original Post, Delirium,

A person of average strength should be able to wear full leather armor and weaponry and be at light encumbrance, no problem.

I'd dispute this on the grounds of whether that leather armor is light or not. A person of average strength should be able to wear some armor, or a full set of light armor (which probably isn't effective except against smaller beast bites) and presumably relying on their agility for defense. This seems to be the reality of the game now, and I'm largely OK with that.

A problem here is that some items that should be light (sandcloth+leather clothing, explicitly light armor) may not be very light at all. I agree with Synthesis that this probably stems from a lack of QC for item creation, and with Molten Heart that it could use standardization. It's exacerbated by Value (unless you have it) being a pretty unreliable skill, making it difficult to check a gear's weight without wearing it. I doubt this will every get closely looked at, though you should bug items that seem obscenely heavy (like a pair of 150lb pants I can think of).

An unarmored character (whether by choice or or not) should not be looking to get in to straight-up fights with heavily armed, heavily armored opponents anyway. This is why skills like archery, throwing, backstab, sap, and poison exist.

[Delirium]

There's a duster that has to weigh at least 3 stone.. which is ~7 pounds.

Weights are very inconsistent and definitely skewed toward being too heavy.

A human of average strength wearing only light (sandcloth/leather) armor, a cloak, a helmet, a few weapons, a waterskin, and a bow & quiver? You're at manageable, which means you lose all the advantages light armor should give you (lighter weight, more maneuverability, i.e. an "agility" fighter). Or you have to pack everything except your armor and weapons, which might get you to easily manageable.

So the agility fighter concept goes out the window right quick.

Meanwhile a high strength character gets to wear all that or more, plus hit harder, hit faster, and be harder TO hit.

[BadSkeelz]

There's a duster that has to weigh at least 3 stone.. which is ~7 pounds.

Weights are very inconsistent and definitely skewed toward being too heavy.

Agreed.

A human of average strength wearing only light (sandcloth/leather) armor, a cloak, a helmet, a few weapons, a waterskin, and a bow & quiver? You're at manageable, which means you lose all the advantages light armor should give you (lighter weight, more maneuverability, i.e. an "agility" fighter). Or you have to pack everything except your armor and weapons, which might get you to easily manageable.

This actually seems to be a reasonable situation to face, to me. Water is heavy. A "Few" weapons (depending on size) can quickly add up. Bows and arrows do seem to be slanted towards heavy.  You should be making decisions over what your character actually needs to be wearing at that moment. The pack (with water), quiver, and bow can probably go on the mount until you need it. A Desert Elf doesn't have a mount, but they're something of a special case.

So the agility fighter concept goes out the window right quick.

Anecdotal suggests otherwise... as long as your character is making the above choices about what they actually need to be carrying on them.

Meanwhile a high strength character gets to wear all that or more, plus hit harder, hit faster, and be harder TO hit.

Yes, which is why I always prioritize strength (followed by agility) on my melee-focused PCs. That doesn't seem fundamentally wrong to me. Robes weighing seven pounds or more seems wrong.

[Desertman]

The average person isn't really supposed to be a combatant for a living in reality.

Fighters (people you would expect to have any reason at all to be in armor) are not people who are average when it comes to physical prowess.

Even the fighter who depends on speed is still stronger than an average person.  They are just weaker than other fighters who also train to be fighters.

Even the weakest fighters at my gym who train to be fighters are much stronger than your average person. Why? Because they train to be fighters.

These are the people you would expect to find wearing armor every day if this were the 17th century or Zalanthas.

People with average strength, in reality, shouldn't be wearing armor every day and acting as though they are trained fighters. They should be doing average people things.

Arguing having average strength means you should be able to conduct yourself in full armor like an actual fighter because of "realism", is in fact, not realistic in any way.


With that being said, I don't think having average strength should make you unable to be a fighter in-game for playability reasons.

I'm fine arguing playability, but not realism.

The realism argument works against this.

[BadSkeelz]

It does friggin suck when your PC with a fighter background, a fighter mdesc, a fighter guild and subguild, and fighter prioritization, comes out of the gate with average stats. The realism argument works up to the point where our RNG stats work against us and leave us with no recourse for improvement.

[Desertman]

It does friggin suck when your PC with a fighter background, a fighter mdesc, a fighter guild and subguild, and fighter prioritization, comes out of the gate with average stats. The realism argument works up to the point where our RNG stats work against us and leave us with no recourse for improvement.

Agreed. Though the ability to prioritize helps a lot with this these days.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

This is a fair point. I do think there are incentives for limiting your armor and keeping your encumbrance low, especially if your PC is not a super-strong one.
...
Heavy armor (whether because of equipment-based debuffs or simply from encumbrance) do discourage you from wearing them while performing most agility-based activities. It's also harder to dodge while being encumbered. "

Maybe it's something that we should Ask the Staff about, but I feel like the only real negatives come directly from your encumbrance rating, which is derived from the weight of your eq/inventory, and your strength. What I'm saying is that, if I'm strong enough to wear a full suit of scrab shell armor and only be at light encumbrance, there's absolutely no benefit to me wearing sandcloth and leather armor with the same character. And I don't think that's the best system, because even if I'm physically strong enough to wear heavy armors, they're still going to limit my movements. Yes, I've seen the video on youtube of the guy doing cartwheels in platemail. But lets not pretend he couldn't have cartwheeled more easily and more gracefully if he'd been wearing a sweatsuit.

I'll also disagree about the Red Viper fighting style not being possible. It totally is, I've seen it done, and I've even heard of people fighting giants using it... sometimes to no greater success than the Red Viper found. The fight was a much closer thing in the books; if the Viper had slipped up once he would have been cut in half. His fighting style was explicitly gladiatorial and flashy. He might have been equipped like a Dornish spearmen - medium armor (relative to the setting), shield, long spear - but if real life is anything to go on, actual Dornish spearmen probably do not fight with a bunch of acrobatics.

Right. My last fighter that I spoke of was an exceptional agility, extremely good strength warrior. And I had on a few occasions laid wreck to giants in single combat while wearing leather armor. I could've done the same while wearing a head, neck, body, and wrists of kryl shell if I wanted to - I probably had the strength score for it. And I did read the books, and I remember there being a conversation between him and Tyrion where Tyrion was like "y u no wear armor", and Oberyn was like "Bro, dude EPs a greatsword. They don't make armor that stands up to that, so I gotta go light so I can get my full dex bonus to AC." But I guess maybe he was a lower strength character.

"Having slabs of obsidian strapped to your wrists" seems like a ridiculous compromise to me, given the weight of stone and how much more tiring that would be on your arms, but I'd definitely wear some sort of bracers.

A was referencing a real, fairly popular, piece of Zalanthan armor/idiocy. :p

Reading through these posts, its entirely possible I'm looking at this wrong too. I never fight higher than "easily manageable" unless it can be avoided. I find stepping from there to "manageable" makes me perform noticeably worse. But I also rarely wear any armor heavier than 10 stone, unless I'm a dwarf or giant... So when I see humans running around in the high end Kryl shell head to toe, I naturally assume they're max height/weight warriors with Exceptional strength. Is that true? Or are you guys all sacrificing manageable encumbrance for head to toe chitin?

For the record, I'm also partial to the "armor wearing" skill idea. It would be a nice little perk to throw warriors, who people seem to think are so gimped. I agree, it sounds odd as a "skill" at first, but I think if you framed it as familiarity with and practice of wearing armor into battle, you could get away with it. Even if platemail isn't as heavy and encumbering as some people seem to think, I have a hard time believing it's not awkward and tiring when you're getting used to it for the early parts of your career.

[BadSkeelz]

So when I see humans running around in the high end Kryl shell head to toe, I naturally assume they're max height/weight warriors with Exceptional strength. Is that true? Or are you guys all sacrificing manageable encumbrance for head to toe chitin?

Without actually seeing them in fight, it's impossible to say. They could be PCs with the stats or skills to pull that off. Or the PC could be bluffing, dressing as a badass to make you think they're a badass without having the actual ability to back it up. Or the player could just have no idea what they're doing beyond making their PC look cool.

[Case]

Last I played a poor strength human, I had no issues with wearing light armor :S

[Ender]

Without actually seeing them in fight, it's impossible to say. They could be PCs with the stats or skills to pull that off. Or the PC could be bluffing, dressing as a badass to make you think they're a badass without having the actual ability to back it up. Or the player could just have no idea what they're doing beyond making their PC look cool.

If they have to take a break to rest on the way to the Gaj, that might be a good indication.

[Dalmeth]

I've played a human with poor strength, and I had a lot of trouble wearing enough armor not to be reel-locked by the first carru I came across.

Yes, you can wear armor with poor strength, but you can't carry the spoils of whatever activity you were wearing armor for.

[Case]

I've played a human with poor strength, and I had a lot of trouble wearing enough armor not to be reel-locked by the first carru I came across.

Yes, you can wear armor with poor strength, but you can't carry the spoils of whatever activity you were wearing armor for.

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

[Dalmeth]

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

Nope.  I've both trained many newb characters and led them to their tragic death via some random accident.

A certain basic level of armor is always necessary until their skills are up, and that armor is pretty heavy.  One skin instead of two, or maybe just a gourd for water.

I'm almost inclined to say we have very little data on how effective the range of heavier armor is because so few people use it.

[Case]

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

Nope.  I've both trained many newb characters and led them to their tragic death via some random accident.

A certain basic level of armor is always necessary until their skills are up, and that armor is pretty heavy.  One skin instead of two, or maybe just a gourd for water.

I'm almost inclined to say we have very little data on how effective the range of heavier armor is because so few people use it.

yeah you're wrong dude

[Synthesis]

I've played a human with poor strength, and I had a lot of trouble wearing enough armor not to be reel-locked by the first carru I came across.

Yes, you can wear armor with poor strength, but you can't carry the spoils of whatever activity you were wearing armor for.

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

Uh, no.

You get reeled when you take a certain percentage of your maximum health or stun in a single shot.

That being said...if you're capable of being hit by a carru, you probably shouldn't be fighting carru.

#justsayin

Dalmeth, you're completely wrong about armor being necessary.  I've run no-armor with a d-elf warrior, two human rangers, countless rinthers, and it worked just fine.  The trick is to manage your expectations, know your skillset, and don't fight shit that a) can hit you regularly and b) hits hard.  Yes, there's a spot where it's dangerous, because a random scrab will roll exceptional stats across the board and fuck you up...but guess what...that same scrab would fuck you up just as badly if you were wearing armor.

Also:  don't be a hero.  Flee early, flee often.

The only time it might be "necessary" is if you're running hard melee PVP against another 1337 dude...in which case...why are you even doing that?  It's stupid.

[Case]

I've played a human with poor strength, and I had a lot of trouble wearing enough armor not to be reel-locked by the first carru I came across.

Yes, you can wear armor with poor strength, but you can't carry the spoils of whatever activity you were wearing armor for.

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

Uh, no.

You get reeled when you take a certain percentage of your maximum health or stun in a single shot.

That being said...if you're capable of being hit by a carru, you probably shouldn't be fighting carru.

#justsayin

Dalmeth, you're completely wrong about armor being necessary.  I've run no-armor with a d-elf warrior, two human rangers, countless rinthers, and it worked just fine.  The trick is to manage your expectations, know your skillset, and don't fight shit that a) can hit you regularly and b) hits hard.  Yes, there's a spot where it's dangerous, because a random scrab will roll exceptional stats across the board and fuck you up...but guess what...that same scrab would fuck you up just as badly if you were wearing armor.

Also:  don't be a hero.  Flee early, flee often.

The only time it might be "necessary" is if you're running hard melee PVP against another 1337 dude...in which case...why are you even doing that?  It's stupid.

You get a chance to resist being reeled. It's a resistance and trainable. Hell, Gladiator gets a boost.

[Dalmeth]

That being said...if you're capable of being hit by a carru, you probably shouldn't be fighting carru.

Every character I've had that died to a carru had no intention of fighting a carru.  I've never been surprised by my results.

I've only considered policy when dealing with new characters and decided between acceptable burdens and acceptable losses.

But let's get to the point, because you're not really arguing against me :

I do think heavier armor should be less of a pain in the butt.  Whether this happens through a racial trait or a regulation of armor weights across the board makes no difference at all.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've played a human with poor strength, and I had a lot of trouble wearing enough armor not to be reel-locked by the first carru I came across.

Yes, you can wear armor with poor strength, but you can't carry the spoils of whatever activity you were wearing armor for.

but reel locking has little to do with armor and more to do with your skill against being reeled?

Uh, no.

You get reeled when you take a certain percentage of your maximum health or stun in a single shot.

That being said...if you're capable of being hit by a carru, you probably shouldn't be fighting carru.

#justsayin

Dalmeth, you're completely wrong about armor being necessary.  I've run no-armor with a d-elf warrior, two human rangers, countless rinthers, and it worked just fine.  The trick is to manage your expectations, know your skillset, and don't fight shit that a) can hit you regularly and b) hits hard.  Yes, there's a spot where it's dangerous, because a random scrab will roll exceptional stats across the board and fuck you up...but guess what...that same scrab would fuck you up just as badly if you were wearing armor.

Also:  don't be a hero.  Flee early, flee often.

The only time it might be "necessary" is if you're running hard melee PVP against another 1337 dude...in which case...why are you even doing that?  It's stupid.

You get a chance to resist being reeled. It's a resistance and trainable. Hell, Gladiator gets a boost.

This is a good assumption becuase I know reel tolerance is a thing. However my first thought was a bonus to natural defense, like a dwarf. Makes me wonder.

[Mordiggian]

I generally tweak items if I see that they have unusual weights. We have a largely standardized process for things like weight now and most items that exist outside these margins are older. If you see something that seems funky, hit it with an idea command.

It's important to keep in mind that Value is not always accurate.

[Synthesis]

I don't know where y'all are getting the idea that there's some sort of hidden reel-resistance skill, but I've never observed it.  Every time I've taken a shot worthy of getting reeled, I got reeled--hands down.

My guess was the gladatior verbiage meant they get a higher endurance or hp roll.

[Jihelu]

I'm 69% sure of hidden reel stat 2016

[Beethoven]

Reel resistance skill:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,22964.msg242475.html#msg242475

[Case]

Reel resistance skill:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,22964.msg242475.html#msg242475

That's also where I knew from.

Wtf Synthesis? You're been so off on your code and skill commentary lately, it's like you don't have your head in the game any more. Gotta want it man. Gotta 110% drop pack.

[Synthesis]

Okay, well.  I still haven't personally observed it.  You must have to GET RECKT a massive number of times for it to go up enough to be noticeable.