Armageddon is Zero Sum

[LauraMars]

I rarely use or care about skills

I couldn't be less worried about the idea of people using or caring about skills

I am involved in STUFF&THINGS, so too are people who use and care about skills

This thread is weird

[Malifaxis]

I don't know what Laura meant by that, but she is smart, cool, and fun so I am backing her play.

YEAH!  WHAT LAURA SAID!!!

[Armaddict]

I rarely use or care about skills

I couldn't be less worried about the idea of people using or caring about skills

I am involved in STUFF&THINGS, so too are people who use and care about skills

This thread is weird

Armageddon-Almost-Haiku

[evilcabbage]

i like to twink up
because it makes me feel good
did i win arm yet?

[Majikal]

Armageddon is a Zero Sum game... what?

Suppose that depends on your definition of what a gain and what a loss is. I think you very much simplified what the game is about.

[tapas]

I don't think it's zero sum in regard to skill building. It's certainly zero sum when it comes to running up against certain player cliques.

Long lived players calcify into the game world, certain players play together for so long. They form ooc relationships and it isn't long before the group think develops into some sort of bizarre siege mentality.

It's great when you're on the inside. You're having your friends figure out new ways to inject you back into the game to play with you. And they'll bend over backwards to accommodate your nilazi-whateverr. But when you're on the outside, playing with players who don't know you oocly, you can expect a fuck-tonne of backroom gank-deaths and general shittiness to bump you off the plot line.

This is the true disease of Armageddon. The way these silos develop to crush characters and plot-lines not because of the actual content, but because they are run by players that aren't on the inside.

[James de Monet]

That's a possible scenario, but I wouldn't give in to that rather depressing thought without more hard evidence.  A lot of people on the GDB act like they know each other, but only do as personalities, or really do know each other, but also use aliases in clan forums, which makes it hard to know who you're playing with.  I feel for you if that really happened, but I've never really seen it.

[RogueGunslinger]

 I don't have some sort of group I roleplay with OOCly in this game, I try to hide who I play(though i'm shit at it), and I think I can pretty fairly say I've never been PK'd without deserving it in some IC way. I know that is anecdote and it does happen and that there are people who play like that, so don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's a disease crippling Armageddon and is probably pretty rare.  

[John]

I also haven't ever come across one of those cliques either. I also tend to play a wide variety of characters as well (although almost always Allanak based. So if they are tribals or Kurac or something then I naturally self-select away from them).

[Xalle]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

[Asanadas]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

Thank you for saying the truth here.

In Armageddon, if you feel like there are forces beyond the scope of the actual game converging against you, one of the only things you'll salvage or take away from all of your investment is a new friend or person you've found & changed contact info with. I'm thankful for my few (three) friends I met on this game; however, since I've had years of 'kayfabe' experience in other RP environments, I don't feed them OOC opportunities and I do my best to ignore if they accidentally slip something to me.

I play to win, but win within the game. There's a threshold of gamesmanship that goes beyond that, which I think is spawned by general familiarity or being bored with the game. I'm not there yet.

And we all know that the staff are the ultimate OOC clique, constantly sharing information about everything happening.   

[Miradus]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

I die pretty frequently so I don't know that I've seen what you're talking about, but I will acknowledge it's happened on every single other roleplay enforced game I've ever played in.

I don't know that it's a problem in general. People want to spend time with those they like and avoid those they don't. The problem develops when group A looks at group B and says, "Those people over there are having fun. Let's go crush it."

I've met a number of people I enjoy playing with. They roleplay very well, aren't scumbags, and are generally pleasant to be around. But I've felt it would sort of be a breach of etiquette to try and establish an OOC relationship with them so our playing can persist through multiple characters.

[evilcabbage]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

i see it all the time.

i feel your pain.

i want to include everyone.

but some people don't want to include me.

[Alesan]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

It can be pretty obvious from the outside even as a player when this kind of thing is going on. People think they're being sneaky, or subtle, or whatever, but they don't realize how easily spotted it is when they're on the inside. It's a natural occurance in any game, RP enforced or not, but it would be nice if those types of players made more attempt to branch out from their circle of friends. When you just stick to the people you know, you make it that much more boring for everyone else who happens to play around you. And that makes you kind of boring, too.

[Miradus]

It is a much greater problem when that small clique forces their way into any plot or quest going on, even if it doesn't concern them. I'm not saying that occurs here, but I've seen it elsewhere. On a previous mud I played, a certain clique of friends who had played together for years would loiter in the tavern literally doing nothing for RL weeks except commenting on each other's fashion or having mudsex (and babies). Then suddenly an imm would animate a goblin or orc in the wilderness and you'd see the city empty out fast as the entire clique would rush out to participate in a plot, often overwhelming or even forcing away other players who had been there at the start.

Worse was that some of the staff were part of that clique and supported it OOC.

That sort of behavior is death to an RP mud as you just sort of cannibalize your new players in favor of supporting the old ones.

[Nergal]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

Thank you for saying the truth here.

In Armageddon, if you feel like there are forces beyond the scope of the actual game converging against you, one of the only things you'll salvage or take away from all of your investment is a new friend or person you've found & changed contact info with. I'm thankful for my few (three) friends I met on this game; however, since I've had years of 'kayfabe' experience in other RP environments, I don't feed them OOC opportunities and I do my best to ignore if they accidentally slip something to me.

I play to win, but win within the game. There's a threshold of gamesmanship that goes beyond that, which I think is spawned by general familiarity or being bored with the game. I'm not there yet.

And we all know that the staff are the ultimate OOC clique, constantly sharing information about everything happening.   

In the interest of saying the truth, I suppose it's also worth mentioning that one of the many things player cliques do is spread information on recent plots or things that happened to their character, or other characters. Usually it's behind the scenes, but sometimes it's quite visible.

Either way, it goes on to completely ruin the status of the plot, sometimes to the point that staff have to drop all support for it because it's obvious how much OOC collusion and information-sharing has destroyed the plot's integrity. Those people treat the game as if it is zero-sum because they are completely willing to destroy plots and other players' fun to benefit themselves and a few others. While it's safe to say that those players will never be trusted to the extent that non-clique players are as long as they continue their behavior and maintain their associations, it's also fair to say that some players that appear to be non-clique could be secretly engaging in the same behavior.

Ultimately, we individually decide whether high school has ended for us or not. A mature person who plays this game to have fun will adhere to the game's rules and guidelines and avoid OOC information sharing. Everyone else sucks.

[Riev]

Or. Sometimes it LOOKS like you are sharing plots and IC information but you dont have any friends. So staff summon you and rail you for 45minutes about how they know it was you even though you have no idea what theyre talking about.


Only to find out it WAS someone else but of course now staff dont trust you and you probably have a nasty pinfo because you lie to staff.

[Jingo]

For what it's worth. If you've never been the inside, you don't know what it looks like from the outside.

[Synthesis]

Or. Sometimes it LOOKS like you are sharing plots and IC information but you dont have any friends. So staff summon you and rail you for 45minutes about how they know it was you even though you have no idea what theyre talking about.


Only to find out it WAS someone else but of course now staff dont trust you and you probably have a nasty pinfo because you lie to staff.

Ha, that reminds me of the time I murdered a brand-new sponsored role PC sort of by accident. (I had no idea who it was...I just saw them palling around with another PC I wanted dead, so I was like, "fuck this guy, too.")  Then the corpse dropped and I saw the signet ring and was like uh...oops?

[Asanadas]

I let out a lot of information because I assumed that I was never returning to the game... I'm sure a lot of people have done this before. Now that I've got an invested interest in continuing in the game, I'm not outing information and likewise I'm following the rules. Like it's been said, I'm a somewhat rational actor here in the metaphor.  

The respect for the game comes and goes, especially if someone feels like they're not being respected in turn (by anything or anyone, no specific thing). In those pockets of questionable standing, it's relieving to find out that one isn't alone; that's how it was for me. The key qualifier here is whether it's true or not, the sensation is still there -- we're talking about feelings, after all.

How plots are ruined by OOC collusion, I can see that. But if my buddy tells me, "Hey, staff are giving me a purple erdlu that's going to eat Templar X's pants off" or some other plot that is completely out of my IC "realm" of influence, I'm going to say, "cool" and be done with it. I'm not going to get Templar X's AIM and warn him about his pants. Even if I am Templar X (which isn't likely at this rate), I'll say "cool" and keep on going.

There's a surface layer of Arm which, due to policies, protects information about activity from bubbling through to discussion on an OOC level. Some of us who have taken an interest in those activities from a hobbyist's standpoint want to talk about those things, in our circles. What's the last "This is something that happened which you know about" post on the GDB? Off the top of my head, aside from the gith stories, ICly it's the flash of light from our laser light show. But there's depth and story much further than that which interests us.

Basically, the depth is there but it can't get out without ruining things. Some cliques develop out of experience and the mutual assumption that others aren't going to "ruin" whatever they're told. Maybe there's a clique explicitly trying to ruin everything, but those folks are bad players. Maybe those of us who want to appreciate Armageddon outside of the small frames of our characters do suck, but I hope we're not ruining everything for everybody.

[Lizzie]

I think it should also be noted that some people just naturally gravitate toward certain play styles of others. This ultimately results in players who end up having characters who know each other.

For example - I interacted with the Red Fang character Lash with at least four of my PCs. For the first two, I didn't know who XD was other than a persona on the GDB, had no idea he was playing Lash, and it wouldn't have "meant" anything if I had known. By the time I had gotten to my third character's interaction with him, I found out it was XD. By that point I was already drawn to his inclusionary style of roleplay, and would have definitely gravitated toward his characters, whether as an ally or adversary, because I found the player fun to RP with.

The inverse is true as well - some people are naturally inclined to avoid certain play styles, which means that ICly, you'll see some exclusionary RP going on. It doesn't necessarily mean people are coordinating things outside the game.

[Suhuy]

OOC player cliques pooling into clans or always playing together, giving each other a magic pass into plots and automatic 'backup', while cold shouldering/dismissing those who aren't part of it are definitely a thing - I sensed it as a player, and see it clearly happening now as staff. I wish people wouldn't do it and would play with a more inclusive mindset, as an 'elitist' (except it's not really elitist, it's just crap) cliquey mentality is not a healthy or a positive thing for the game. Luckily not everyone is like that, and they're the ones missing out on the really classy, fun players because their scope is so limited to and influenced by their OOC networks.

I think a lot of players could try to do better with their OOC/IC separation in general, to be honest.

Dealing with this is the story of my life. Well, my IC one at times. It's definitely a thing and very frustrating when you go to great lengths to actually be inclusive and certain cliques can't be bothered to lift a finger because.. you're not in their little circle.

The flip side of the token, however, is as Riev says. Sometimes it really just looks that way when it's not at all, to the point where the players who may seem OOCly connected don't even know one another outside of their IC selves. I haven't been the victim of it, myself, but I have heard horror stories from many years past where various staff members would come down hard on a player, accusing them of OOCly coordinating with another. In almost every instance, the players accused didn't even know one another! I say this not to point fingers or to suggest that it happens in this day and age, but for all of us to look at a situation with a grain of salt and accept the possibility that we may be wrong.

What is not wrong, however, are the cliques that refuse to be inclusive and essentially want to play their own MUD within the MUD, and in some cases their own clan within a clan. They may not be ruining plots or sharing any deep dark IC secrets with each other offline, but their exclusivity is certain.  I would rather see players look for an excuse to interact than to blame away their refusal to do so on the virtual world, saying it was too crowded to notice you in a tavern. Why not use the virtual crowd to force you to bump into that one and only other PC in the room instead? The only other PC is an elf and you feel your character is too uppity to interact with elves? Make up some virtual excuse that your ailing aunt has a sickness and you need some sort of illegal substance to cure her as an excuse to start a deal and initiate interaction. I'm not saying we have to interact with every single individual we encounter, but sometimes it feels that we go so far to the opposite end of the spectrum that forcing a little interaction on others would actually be beneficial.

[BadSkeelz]

Make what excuses for clique-forming and "Not all players collude OOC!" you all want, it still happens. Try not to take the stating of facts personally.

I know it because I've done and seen others do it. If it's as bad a thing for the game as some believe, I can't say. It probably is. I try not to engage in "plots" that take more than a day or to resolve, or scheme against other players, because the OOC baggage that comes with either is too much for me to bother with. But even as someone who doesn't like "plots," learning the amount of shit I do OOC is annoying.

[hopeandsorrow]

I sometimes have difficulty telling if some one is putting me off cause OOC motivation or just if it's IC.

I always find it impossible to tell.

Especially when you add 'disinterested' in a emote, (looks at you, with an expression of disinterest).

I get slightly offended on an OOC level, "Sorry guises I'm not in on yer buddy list!"

Then I realize it's more then likely because I'm playing a dirty breed wearing the worse clothing, but for that slight moment I'm always like "Did you really have to add the disinterested part? REALLY?".

Just my personal musing, I could care less about people's little cliques, I evolved past high school to become a socially awkward adult.

[nauta]

Having played my share of social outcasts, my favourite reactions still are the following:

1. em ignores you.

(Yes, I've received that.)

2. [nothing]

(Yes, I've received that.)

I could honestly give two poops about it.  There are by leagues more people out there that are fun and interesting than people who aren't on this MUD.