Changes made to how offense, defense, weapon proficiency, and twohanded increase

[hyzhenhok]

Gaining skill against a peer is still possible. Gaining skill against someone not as skilled as you is still possible. The change is meant to eliminate the "plateau" through challenging oneself rather than simple luck/grinding.

This change makes clan sparring much more attractive for low-skilled characters, but I don't see how it addresses the "journeyman plateau" issue. Even if the best way to master a weapon skill is now to spar with a master of that weapon, you have a chicken and egg problem with generating the first master weapon-users that others can spar against.

[Nergal]

I think based on what I've explained so far, you could see a way that someone could become highly-skilled and train others over time. It's not meant to be a "quick fix". It's not a chicken-and-egg scenario because there are still valid paths toward attaining mastery (edit to add:) even if there is no "master" available.

[Malken]

Stilt lizards are useless to someone who is good at fighting a stilt lizard in a similar way to how a sparring dummy is useless to someone who is good at fighting a sparring dummy.

I don't really agree from my own experience, sparring dummies are mostly and all the time only useful to merchants and rogue 'gikers pretending to be future Byn superstars, and only for a very limited time, but stilt lizards are excellent for anyone at advanced weapon skills because they at least give you a chance to miss once in a blue moon, and when you're at an advanced weapon level of skill, this is GOLD, Jerry!

But I also understand how this would be a good change in what you're talking about, I just think I'm speaking for everyone here (as I always do!) when I say it's probably not what we were hoping for.

Gaining chance on successful skill use/look hemote 2016 - I believe!

[LauraMars]

With all these new delicious subguilds (GLADIATOR) and what sounds like an easier time of raising combat skills, the chances of me trying to create a raiding clan/clan of rebels have just gone up

[Rathustra]

If there is nobody better than you, then you're already at the top of the heap, no?

Yeah, until one-punch man walks out of the desert with the blood of stilt lizards dripping from his bone gauntlets as he wipes your entire clan.

Which has happened at least once in Arm history. Hi Red Fangs?

Only One Punch Man will be geriatric - he will get better, the stilt lizards will not get better.

[Nergal]

Stilt lizards are useless to someone who is good at fighting a stilt lizard in a similar way to how a sparring dummy is useless to someone who is good at fighting a sparring dummy.

I don't really agree from my own experience, sparring dummies are mostly and all the time only useful to merchants and rogue 'gikers pretending to be future Byn superstars, and only for a very limited time, but stilt lizards are excellent for anyone at advanced weapon skills because they at least give you a chance to miss once in a blue moon, and when you're at an advanced weapon level of skill, this is GOLD, Jerry!

But I also understand how this would be a good change in what you're talking about, I just think I'm speaking for everyone here (as I always do!) when I say it's probably not what we were hoping for.

Gaining chance on successful skill use/look hemote 2016 - I believe!

What you observed in the past re. stilt lizards isn't really true now. They used to have a ridiculous defense stat, and now they don't.

[Malken]

Ahh, fair enough!

[Nergal]

With all these new delicious subguilds (GLADIATOR) and what sounds like an easier time of raising combat skills, the chances of me trying to create a raiding clan/clan of rebels have just gone up

I think most PCs had a harder time raising combat skills at the middle of their "fighting career". As I'm pretty confident I did my math correctly, most people should now have an easier time raising combat skills at the beginning-to-middle of their fighting career and a harder time at the end, so I think it's safe to say that raising combat skills is made easier by this change overall - even if it lacks other straightforward means of making it easier (e.g., skill gain on success).

For what it's worth to everyone posting in this thread in general, I wouldn't have pushed for this change staff-side if I didn't think it would make a difference, or if I thought it would hamper players. I have done everything I could to ensure that this is a net gain for players rather than a "nerf".

[JackGibbons]

I think most PCs had a harder time raising combat skills at the middle of their "fighting career". As I'm pretty confident I did my math correctly, most people should now have an easier time raising combat skills at the beginning-to-middle of their fighting career and a harder time at the end, so I think it's safe to say that raising combat skills is made easier by this change overall - even if it lacks other straightforward means of making it easier (e.g., skill gain on success).

For what it's worth to everyone posting in this thread in general, I wouldn't have pushed for this change staff-side if I didn't think it would make a difference, or if I thought it would hamper players. I have done everything I could to ensure that this is a net gain for players rather than a "nerf".

To clarify, do you mean that the end is 'harder' due to this change, or the end remains just as hard as it always was, with this change alleviating only the middle?

There are two difficulties with sparring that my reading/experience has made me aware of:
a) When you're so bad compared to your opponents that you get squished in a few rounds and hardly get any practice time in.
b) When you're so good compared to your opponents (especially if you're in a clan with lots of fresh recruits and turnover of higher experience chars like the Byn) that you can't ever seem to miss, which is apparently important for progress.

Would it be fair to say that these changes mostly mitigate (a), since the shorter duration of the spars due to getting melted is offset by learning more from them due to the skill disparity with your opponent?
My understanding was that it was (b) that made people stuck at jman weapons despair of finding an RP reason to hunt things they CAN get fails from. It sounds like this change doesn't help with (b) at all. But possibly I'm not clever enough, since you did say that a solution to (b) was also made possible here based on hints you gave earlier.

[Nergal]

I think most PCs had a harder time raising combat skills at the middle of their "fighting career". As I'm pretty confident I did my math correctly, most people should now have an easier time raising combat skills at the beginning-to-middle of their fighting career and a harder time at the end, so I think it's safe to say that raising combat skills is made easier by this change overall - even if it lacks other straightforward means of making it easier (e.g., skill gain on success).

For what it's worth to everyone posting in this thread in general, I wouldn't have pushed for this change staff-side if I didn't think it would make a difference, or if I thought it would hamper players. I have done everything I could to ensure that this is a net gain for players rather than a "nerf".

To clarify, do you mean that the end is 'harder' due to this change, or the end remains just as hard as it always was, with this change alleviating only the middle?

There are two difficulties with sparring that my reading/experience has made me aware of:
a) When you're so bad compared to your opponents that you get squished in a few rounds and hardly get any practice time in.
b) When you're so good compared to your opponents (especially if you're in a clan with lots of fresh recruits and turnover of higher experience chars like the Byn) that you can't ever seem to miss, which is apparently important for progress.

Would it be fair to say that these changes mostly mitigate (a), since the shorter duration of the spars due to getting melted is offset by learning more from them due to the skill disparity with your opponent?
My understanding was that it was (b) that made people stuck at jman weapons despair of finding an RP reason to hunt things they CAN get fails from. It sounds like this change doesn't help with (b) at all. But possibly I'm not clever enough, since you did say that a solution to (b) was also made possible here based on hints you gave earlier.

The end is hard as it always was, but also because you would be hard-pressed to find someone that has truly mastered fighting.

Problem A is mitigated by making the shorter session/fewer fails worth more, as each fail would have a higher chance of causing skill-gain.
Problem B is not specifically mitigated by this change, but by the fact that they will still have a chance to gain skills, and still have a chance to find someone or something to fight that is better than them at fighting. There are very few PCs in-game right now that are at the top-tier of combat potential.

[JackGibbons]

I think most PCs had a harder time raising combat skills at the middle of their "fighting career". As I'm pretty confident I did my math correctly, most people should now have an easier time raising combat skills at the beginning-to-middle of their fighting career and a harder time at the end, so I think it's safe to say that raising combat skills is made easier by this change overall - even if it lacks other straightforward means of making it easier (e.g., skill gain on success).

For what it's worth to everyone posting in this thread in general, I wouldn't have pushed for this change staff-side if I didn't think it would make a difference, or if I thought it would hamper players. I have done everything I could to ensure that this is a net gain for players rather than a "nerf".

To clarify, do you mean that the end is 'harder' due to this change, or the end remains just as hard as it always was, with this change alleviating only the middle?

There are two difficulties with sparring that my reading/experience has made me aware of:
a) When you're so bad compared to your opponents that you get squished in a few rounds and hardly get any practice time in.
b) When you're so good compared to your opponents (especially if you're in a clan with lots of fresh recruits and turnover of higher experience chars like the Byn) that you can't ever seem to miss, which is apparently important for progress.

Would it be fair to say that these changes mostly mitigate (a), since the shorter duration of the spars due to getting melted is offset by learning more from them due to the skill disparity with your opponent?
My understanding was that it was (b) that made people stuck at jman weapons despair of finding an RP reason to hunt things they CAN get fails from. It sounds like this change doesn't help with (b) at all. But possibly I'm not clever enough, since you did say that a solution to (b) was also made possible here based on hints you gave earlier.

The end is hard as it always was, but also because you would be hard-pressed to find someone that has truly mastered fighting.

Problem A is mitigated by making the shorter session/fewer fails worth more, as each fail would have a higher chance of causing skill-gain.
Problem B is not specifically mitigated by this change, but by the fact that they will still have a chance to gain skills, and still have a chance to find someone or something to fight that is better than them at fighting. There are very few PCs in-game right now that are at the top-tier of combat potential.

Thanks for clarifying. Certainly (a) helps with (b) indirectly in that you can train up peers more easily and slowly improve against each other.

[Nergal]

Yes, that is also true.

[Dan]

Does this mean we can now 'get gud'?

I think this translates directly into bridging the gap between the new PCs and the veterans in any given group. Which is a good thing. It may translate into a more fast paced experience and, at times, overconfidence.

[Eilwen]

With all these new delicious subguilds (GLADIATOR) and what sounds like an easier time of raising combat skills, the chances of me trying to create a raiding clan/clan of rebels have just gone up

Let's do this.

[Synthesis]

The simplest way I imagine this working is that there's a sliding scale that affects chance-to-learn-from-fail based on the ratio of base O/D between the combatants.

So if your base O/D is 1 and your partner's base O/D is 100, it's 100:1 and every fail you get, you get a skill bump.

But if your base O/D is 50 and your partner's base O/D is 50, it's 50:50, and you might get like a 50% chance to get a skill bump on a failure.

Meanwhile, if your base O/D is 100, and your partner's base O/D is 1, you might only get a 1% chance to get a skill bump on a failure (if you even fail at all, which you won't).

That's what I gather from reading between the lines, anyway.  It still doesn't solve the problem of what happens when you never fail at all, ever, because weapon skill + style + base O > base D for all base Ds short of an Ankheg.

But I mean...we'll see.  Supposedly parries count as failures, so I guess we'll see how that plays out.  Given what I've observed, and what's been said so far, I don't think it's going to change much.  You're still going to advance faster by going out and fighting mobs that have base D stats that are vastly superior to what is possible to attain with a humanoid PC.  And you're still going to advance faster by fighting any kind of mob that can dodge you with regularity, regardless of what the relative base O/D stats are.

It'll be interesting to see if this code change affects IC relationships, though.  The value of 1337 PCs will go beyond RPT DPS and affect the training efficiency of the entire unit.  It always did, to a minor extent, but this could  make it a bigger concern, especially if I'm wrong about parries/blocks not counting as fails (which I maintain is a possibility, I suppose, buuuut again, I haven't seen much to support that assertion).

[rodic]

-Changes made to how offense, defense, weapon proficiency, and two handed increase

GET HYPE

RIP Turaal University's School of the Only Way to Improve Weapon Skills... maybe finally?

I think it's safe to say their accreditation has been revoked.

This is going to really fuck with the ecology, players are turaal's only natural predator.

[nauta]

Turaal                                                          (Animal Life)

While scarce, their rarity is probably more product of their preference for remote ravines and gullies
than a deficit in numbers. Between one and one and a half cords in length when mature, these serpentine-
bodied mammals are sought after both for their sleek pelts, and for bragging rights.

Looks like the helpfile needs updated! 

[Asmoth]

The simplest way I imagine this working is that there's a sliding scale that affects chance-to-learn-from-fail based on the ratio of base O/D between the combatants.

So if your base O/D is 1 and your partner's base O/D is 100, it's 100:1 and every fail you get, you get a skill bump.

But if your base O/D is 50 and your partner's base O/D is 50, it's 50:50, and you might get like a 50% chance to get a skill bump on a failure.

Meanwhile, if your base O/D is 100, and your partner's base O/D is 1, you might only get a 1% chance to get a skill bump on a failure (if you even fail at all, which you won't).

That's what I gather from reading between the lines, anyway.  It still doesn't solve the problem of what happens when you never fail at all, ever, because weapon skill + style + base O > base D for all base Ds short of an Ankheg.

But I mean...we'll see.  Supposedly parries count as failures, so I guess we'll see how that plays out.  Given what I've observed, and what's been said so far, I don't think it's going to change much.  You're still going to advance faster by going out and fighting mobs that have base D stats that are vastly superior to what is possible to attain with a humanoid PC.  And you're still going to advance faster by fighting any kind of mob that can dodge you with regularity, regardless of what the relative base O/D stats are.

It'll be interesting to see if this code change affects IC relationships, though.  The value of 1337 PCs will go beyond RPT DPS and affect the training efficiency of the entire unit.  It always did, to a minor extent, but this could  make it a bigger concern, especially if I'm wrong about parries/blocks not counting as fails (which I maintain is a possibility, I suppose, buuuut again, I haven't seen much to support that assertion).

Synthesis, always a ray of sunshine in the storm...

[Sunburned]

I'm extremely optimistic and grateful for this change, Nergal.

To reiterate similar concerns of Synthesis...

My only worry is that if the mode of failure hasn't changed (how failures are recognized in the code), then this will ultimately matter little for combatants at that infamous plateau, because journeyman+ warriors stop failing against each other.  This basically means that people who hunt and/or have experienced rangers in their clan will still be at a great advantage, and this will still result in metagaming.

[evilcabbage]

according to past threads, parry/block counts as a fail.

so there is that.

[Riev]

Maybe not so many useless Bynners even after a year of decent sparring?

[Nergal]

I'm extremely optimistic and grateful for this change, Nergal.

To reiterate similar concerns of Synthesis...

My only worry is that if the mode of failure hasn't changed (how failures are recognized in the code), then this will ultimately matter little for combatants at that infamous plateau, because journeyman+ warriors stop failing against each other.  This basically means that people who hunt and/or have experienced rangers in their clan will still be at a great advantage, and this will still result in metagaming.

Two fighters that are truly equally skilled won't "stop failing" against each other. That has been a design of the code for a while - although many are convinced of the false presumption that they will never fail, this is because all player methods of determining relative skill have some inherent inaccuracy. Even if parries/blocks didn't count as failures, between equally-skilled fighters they only extend the length of a spar at worst, because with equal stats/skills their success and failure against one another is completely random.

Unfortunately this seems more like something that some people won't be convinced of until they actually try the new system out, so I'm not going to expound on that response to that particular concern any further, and just let the code change speak for itself over time.

[Malken]

Unfortunately this seems more like something that some people won't be convinced of until they actually try the new system out, so I'm not going to expound on that response to that particular concern any further, and just let the code change speak for itself over time.

I believe you! I just wasn't aware of the stilt lizard and other critter changes before you mentioned it.

The more I read your replies the more I like that change.

[hyzhenhok]

It'll be interesting to see if this code change affects IC relationships, though.  The value of 1337 PCs will go beyond RPT DPS and affect the training efficiency of the entire unit.  It always did, to a minor extent, but this could  make it a bigger concern, especially if I'm wrong about parries/blocks not counting as fails (which I maintain is a possibility, I suppose, buuuut again, I haven't seen much to support that assertion).

I like this a lot, and it also changes the dynamic in actual sparring sessions. Now, people should be lining up to receive "lessons" from the better fighters in the guild, whereas earlier the incentive was you never wanted to fight someone who could kick your ass, because unless they were nice and did the nosave combat drill you'd get your ass kicked too quickly to get your fails in.

[Akariel]

I would like to add that I've been watching the stilt lizards since the new species went in - fewer people train on them than you might imagine.