City hide (master) Wilderness hide (novice)

[Harmless]

This is a simple question. We know that being a ranger gives wilderness hide, and a city-stealth subguild adds city sneak/hide. We know that currently, hide shares its skill rank whether you hide in the city or wilderness, same for sneak, as long as you are playing the appropriate guild.

Should we split these up?

My problem with the current system is that if a PC masters hide/sneak entirely inside a city, but chose the right subguild, they are suddenly able to masterfully glide through the dunes unseen, or creep in the Grey forest or scrubs with the same mastery. Even if they never went out there codedly, once.

Discuss?

This poll was born out of an argument with Fujikoma.

[Harmless]

Splitting hide/sneak debate tracker:

PROs list:

1.) It favors realism (debatable, see Con#4)
2.) It may promote cooperation as practicing in the wilds is dangerous
3.) Being outside becomes a requirement for outdoorsy classes during a PC's "growth/learning phase"
4.) It may increase the variety of "learning scenes" that PCs have
5.) It's another skill on my skill list for you to stare at lovingly
6.) It could allow for more complex branching trees/realistic progression of skills
7.) It will eliminate the "loophole" that "metagamers" use to max out their wilderness stealth without ever actually going outside.

CONs list

1.) The mortality rate is already too high and this will worsen that
2.) There should be SOME overlap of skill and this doesn't seem to allow for any
3.) This is an unneeded nerf to already 'nerfed' classes: city elves, sneaky city subguilds with poor combat skills (burglar, pickpocket)
4.) There are different views of what stealth/hiding realistically is, so why complicate things further?
5.) The skillgrind is bad enough, so why worsen it.
6.) It will only promote the further success of "metagamers" who are more adept at training their skills than I am.

[Fujikoma]

I'm just going to point out that creeping through the grey forest might not be the best idea, for reasons undisclosed.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the idea of people being able to do both. However I think wilderness stealth items should give negative bonuses to city stealth, and vice versa.

[Fujikoma]

I like the idea of people being able to do both. However I think wilderness stealth items should give negative bonuses to city stealth, and vice versa.

I can, kind of sort of see this, at the same time, what if your method of blending with city crowds inconspicuously meant, dressing like a hunter? Just because you look like a bushy, scrub camoflauged jerkwad in the city doesn't make you necessarily suspicious, I mean, eh, just another hunter. Meanwhile, the guy in the full-on city ninja stealth is going to stick out a little more unless he's using that shadowy dinosaur stuff to actively stick to the shadows. I'm really not sure man, it's complicated.

EDIT: That said, I've never played a game before with stealth features split between guilds like in Arm, doesn't mean they're not out there, but either you do stealth, or you don't. IRL, in my perspective, there is SOME overlap, just, for the sake of playing a game and having fun, I find the splitting of hairs in the name of realism to be counter-productive at times, and would actually prefer stealth to just be, you know, universal and unsplit, unlike the switch it is now. Guilds are already restrictive, difficult to customize for the sake of a character concept, OOC abstractions. I don't see further abstraction as being necessary, or particularly wise in the long-term.

[Malken]

Hell no, the last thing I want in this game is having to spend more time on more skillz.

[Asanadas]

Hell no, the last thing I want in this game is having to spend more time on more skillz.

Plus one.

Fix hide making people invisible, and then we can go on from that. I suggest repurposing the "search" skill and giving it to everyone.

[Lizzie]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

[Fujikoma]

Plus, sneak and hide are two of those that are skills you'll find yourself using in situations where a single slip flushes all your RP and twinkery down the toilet. I agree with Malken, Lizzie and Asandas. I don't think hide should be "fixed", per-se, but a skill put in for various guilds with various caps that wills seriously screw over the person hiding if they don't, you know, GTFO... because some can't be trusted to emerge from hiding while the militia has the bar locked down and is waving a torch about under hoods and getting a damn good look at everyone in there (but considering some of the things I've seen, I can't really blame the other side either, so a happy comprimise should be introduced).

EDIT: I suppose my primary concern with introducing something like Asandas's search skill is it will get coded into NPCs and wildlife, which, as everyone knows, are the worst twinky PKers around and will cheat whenever possible.

[Harmless]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

I see your argument that gaining skills needs to be uncomplicated and easy to promote roleplay. However I need to point out that being aware of the current coded system where your wilderness abilities can be mastered without ever stepping out of the city (common knowledge and is obviously reflected in the skillsheet) is in itself a form of "metagaming." Knowing OOCly that you will be just as likely to hide from a gith or something in the wilderness from having snuck around in a city for many hours of gameplay is also a form of "metagaming." Concerns for metagaming or twinking do not solely belong on the pro or con side of this idea.

[Fujikoma]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

I see your argument that gaining skills needs to be uncomplicated and easy to promote roleplay. However I need to point out that being aware of the current coded system where your wilderness abilities can be mastered without ever stepping out of the city (common knowledge and is obviously reflected in the skillsheet) is in itself a form of "metagaming." Knowing OOCly that you will be just as likely to hide from a gith or something in the wilderness from having snuck around in a city for many hours of gameplay is also a form of "metagaming." Concerns for metagaming or twinking do not solely belong on the pro or con side of this idea.

Yes, but concerns over people twinking up their skills a little sounds more like trying to impose your personal preferences on others. So what if Amos's player knows how the coded skill-gain system works and how differences between city/wilderness stealth are affected by certain things? It's like it's being objected to that, in the end, you're playing a game. Games tend to have these things called "builds", there will be powergaming and twinkery, it's what lures anyone who isn't purely a social gamer in to play, which social players actually need to fulfil their own goals, but those other players won't be socializing with your character if THEY HAVE TO HIT THAT NEXT SKILL-GAIN BECAUSE DOPAMINE IS SO DAMN GOOD! Further, there are different tiers of builds, which, over time, a careful player will learn to recognize a tier-like structure as to which builds are suitable for accomplishing which goals...

Trying to overly complicate is like, well, I believe it would have the opposite from intended effect, but I've already said this in different words in this thread.

[Lizzie]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

I see your argument that gaining skills needs to be uncomplicated and easy to promote roleplay. However I need to point out [snip]

I don't know this. I'm not aware of this. Or I wasn't, until you told me just now. This is the kind of "meta" that people are complaining about on the other thread. Hopefully you're wrong. I'm not quoting the whole thing just in case you care to edit it out.

[Fujikoma]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

I see your argument that gaining skills needs to be uncomplicated and easy to promote roleplay. However I need to point out [snip]

I don't know this. I'm not aware of this. Or I wasn't, until you told me just now. This is the kind of "meta" that people are complaining about on the other thread. Hopefully you're wrong. I'm not quoting the whole thing just in case you care to edit it out.

Having looked at that other thread, no, it's not that kind of meta, not by a long-shot. You make some sacrifices with your available choices to access a "feature", which, you could have had a money-making subguild to ease out the early game, but that's not how you chose. That's like saying choosing a guild and subguild rather than letting the dice decide is metagaming.

[fourTwenty]

Agree with Malken. I don't want to deal with more skills that I have to decide whether or not I should twink them or grind them up. I like finding out how good I am at something or bad I am, through the usual roleplay. The more meta I have to deal with, the more meta I feel like I have to compete against.

Well here's a crazy idea. Don't "twink" or "grind" any of your skills. Just use them when appropriate and let them develop naturally.  So there you go, no decision to be made.

I am of the opinion that these skills need to be separated. I have been of that opinion for a while. Imnpretty sure if I were to dig through my old posts I've posted this exact same suggestion before. I see stalking through the dunes and creeping through the city as two very different skills with almost no overlap at all.

[Beethoven]

I'd prefer them separated because it seems unbalanced with other subguilds and it lends to the whole thing about ranger being considered the absolute best class possible for everything, everywhere.

[Fujikoma]

I'd prefer them separated because it seems unbalanced with other subguilds and it lends to the whole thing about ranger being considered the absolute best class possible for everything, everywhere.

Rangers aren't "the best" at a few things, but all around are the best. I'm not sure you'll like the kind of power-creep that happens among the haves and have nots when it comes to karma and extended subguild options. The ranger thread is another thread entirely, but it is vaguely relevant here... in the sense that if you do this, you nerf city stealth guilds a LOT further than you do rangers, who are, hands down, already the best.

[Beethoven]

As far as power creep goes, it's my opinion that the extended subguilds should just straight-up replace the regular subguilds. But then I guess staff might have to deal with way too many mastercrafts or something, I don't know. All I do know is that the whole experience of playing a PC with an extended subguild feels less "gamey." That's a different discussion, but I think if this change were made it would ease the pain of separating the sneak/hide capabilities.

I just remember on the ranger thread that people were saying, for example, that the best assassins inside and out of cities are rangers. That doesn't seem right to me. I know this would wound the city guilds too but again, more ready access to extended subguilds would definitely help.

[Synthesis]

Sneak and hide are pretty  much the two simplest things to skill up, so I don't see how this would really affect anyone, except maaaaybe the weirdos who roll city-elf assassin/hunters.  It would be mildly annoying to have to practice YET ANOTHER skill, but whatever.

The major nuisance would be for people who branch city hide from city sneak, and use extended subguild wilderness hide to start with city hide, so they don't have to branch it.  (And various other permutations of starting with things instead of having to branch them, thanks to subguilds.)

[Desertman]

Fine as it is.

[Fujikoma]

As far as power creep goes, it's my opinion that the extended subguilds should just straight-up replace the regular subguilds. But then I guess staff might have to deal with way too many mastercrafts or something, I don't know. All I do know is that the whole experience of playing a PC with an extended subguild feels less "gamey." That's a different discussion, but I think if this change were made it would ease the pain of separating the sneak/hide capabilities.

I just remember on the ranger thread that people were saying, for example, that the best assassins inside and out of cities are rangers. That doesn't seem right to me. I know this would wound the city guilds too but again, more ready access to extended subguilds would definitely help.

Rangers aren't so much the best at it besides code considerations like archery vs. throw, they also have poison skills, they can make tablets in order to practice that (ahem), you can't just write off the city stealth guilds, as they all have their utility, although some may be more frustrating to reach competence with than others, but rangers are heavily favored, hurting them in a way that impacts city-stealth guilds only compounds the problem, and doesn't give any guilds a real leg-up on the ranger, but nerfs city guilds considerably.

[fourTwenty]

As far as power creep goes, it's my opinion that the extended subguilds should just straight-up replace the regular subguilds. But then I guess staff might have to deal with way too many mastercrafts or something, I don't know. All I do know is that the whole experience of playing a PC with an extended subguild feels less "gamey." That's a different discussion, but I think if this change were made it would ease the pain of separating the sneak/hide capabilities.

I just remember on the ranger thread that people were saying, for example, that the best assassins inside and out of cities are rangers. That doesn't seem right to me. I know this would wound the city guilds too but again, more ready access to extended subguilds would definitely help.

Rangers aren't so much the best at it besides code considerations like archery vs. throw, they also have poison skills, they can make tablets in order to practice that (ahem), you can't just write off the city stealth guilds, as they all have their utility, although some may be more frustrating to reach competence with than others, but rangers are heavily favored, hurting them in a way that impacts city-stealth guilds only compounds the problem, and doesn't give any guilds a real leg-up on the ranger, but nerfs city guilds considerably.

You keep saying this would nerf city guilds. No, no it would not. At least not *in the city*. It would nerf rangers in the city, where they should be nerfed. And it would nerf "city guilds" in the sands... where they shouldn't be in the first place without a subguild to support it.

[Synthesis]

As far as power creep goes, it's my opinion that the extended subguilds should just straight-up replace the regular subguilds. But then I guess staff might have to deal with way too many mastercrafts or something, I don't know. All I do know is that the whole experience of playing a PC with an extended subguild feels less "gamey." That's a different discussion, but I think if this change were made it would ease the pain of separating the sneak/hide capabilities.

I just remember on the ranger thread that people were saying, for example, that the best assassins inside and out of cities are rangers. That doesn't seem right to me. I know this would wound the city guilds too but again, more ready access to extended subguilds would definitely help.

Rangers aren't so much the best at it besides code considerations like archery vs. throw, they also have poison skills, they can make tablets in order to practice that (ahem), you can't just write off the city stealth guilds, as they all have their utility, although some may be more frustrating to reach competence with than others, but rangers are heavily favored, hurting them in a way that impacts city-stealth guilds only compounds the problem, and doesn't give any guilds a real leg-up on the ranger, but nerfs city guilds considerably.

You keep saying this would nerf city guilds. No, no it would not. At least not *in the city*. It would nerf rangers in the city, where they should be nerfed. And it would nerf "city guilds" in the sands... where they shouldn't be in the first place without a subguild to support it.

It would -only- nerf city guilds in the sands, because practicing sneak in the city is super-easy for a ranger/thief.

Practicing wilderness sneak isn't terribly difficult, but it is infinitely more of a pain in the ass than practicing city sneak, because the difficulty of practicing city sneak is near-zero.

[Fujikoma]

As far as power creep goes, it's my opinion that the extended subguilds should just straight-up replace the regular subguilds. But then I guess staff might have to deal with way too many mastercrafts or something, I don't know. All I do know is that the whole experience of playing a PC with an extended subguild feels less "gamey." That's a different discussion, but I think if this change were made it would ease the pain of separating the sneak/hide capabilities.

I just remember on the ranger thread that people were saying, for example, that the best assassins inside and out of cities are rangers. That doesn't seem right to me. I know this would wound the city guilds too but again, more ready access to extended subguilds would definitely help.

Rangers aren't so much the best at it besides code considerations like archery vs. throw, they also have poison skills, they can make tablets in order to practice that (ahem), you can't just write off the city stealth guilds, as they all have their utility, although some may be more frustrating to reach competence with than others, but rangers are heavily favored, hurting them in a way that impacts city-stealth guilds only compounds the problem, and doesn't give any guilds a real leg-up on the ranger, but nerfs city guilds considerably.

You keep saying this would nerf city guilds. No, no it would not. At least not *in the city*. It would nerf rangers in the city, where they should be nerfed. And it would nerf "city guilds" in the sands... where they shouldn't be in the first place without a subguild to support it.

I can think of plenty of historical black-ops groups that serve as examples to completely invalidate your perspective here.

EDIT: Further, don't you realize that's how it already is? Don't you understand that choice of subguild affects this? What OP is wanting would restrict the other form of sneak to your subguild levels, which, my one time playing a purely non-stealth character with a stealthy subguild impressed upon me just how low the caps are.

[Synthesis]

Ooooh, right.  I forgot about the extended subguild caps.

Yeah, if the types were split -and- you were restricted to the subguild cap, it would make them completely useless.

Subguild (even extended subguild) capped stealth skills are garbage.

[Fujikoma]

Ooooh, right.  I forgot about the extended subguild caps.

Yeah, if the types were split -and- you were restricted to the subguild cap, it would make them completely useless.

Subguild (even extended subguild) capped stealth skills are garbage.

Further, if you split sneak and hide another way, then, your hide would be garbage in another environment without an extended subguild, which if you don't have the karma, burn a special app. Oh, and practice out on the sands so you can throwaway that thing you wasted staff's time with getting approved. There's a difference between playing to win, playing to play, and playing to lose. I don't like my choices picked for me beforehand. I play to play, and I don't think anyone should be praised for playing to lose anymore than someone playing to win through the shittiest methods possible because both rely on predetermined outcomes that work on OOC concepts that have no place ICly. I get a shit stat roll? I don't walk out and get scrabbed, I make that work. That's not playing to lose, nor is it playing to win.

EDIT: Such suggestions, considering the code complications I've seen from changes, the hiccups and growing pains, would have some awful, awful affects on the balance of an already unbalanced game. Rangers not being able to sneak in the city won't change them being able to shoot you to death with poison from two rooms away when you decide to stop and smell the roses, or the cooking pits in the Gaj, as some found out the hard way, if the rumor boards IG are to be believed.

[fourTwenty]

I'm trying to see the otherside of this, really I am. But I fail to see the problem. I hunt in real life and I feel like there's a huge difference in learning to walk without sound, downwind, and trudge along at that pace for miles and sneaking, sulking, hanging back in the crowd, making yourself as inconspicuous as possible. I see a big difference between painting yourself up, covering your scent, and lying motionless for hours and being able to blend in with the crowd or stand in a corner shadow without sticking out like a sore thumb.

The only change I for see from splitting the skills, and please I'm more than willing to listen to the disagreement, is that you wouldn't get good sneaking in the desert by practicing in the city and vica versa.

[Fujikoma]

While I could see that, there would be some carry over. I know whenever I'm playing a dual-terrain sneak, I try to RP that out, but I'm not going to go sneaking far out into the desert until I'm pretty durned good at it. Far as I can tell, unless you have dual terrain, you have to go out into the desert to practice if it's sand sneak, or if it's city sneak, in the city. Certain concepts would overlap however... which you could apply to the other. Concepts like misdirection, cover, camouflage for the appropriate environment, would carry over. Even city sneaks have to blend with the environment when there's not much in the way of crowds in the street. Obstacles, distractions like thrown sand, feigning surprise at something behind your enemy, blindspots, moving quietly, shuffling tracks to leave deceptive hints of where you're headed, a sweeping step to move caltrops out from underfoot in the darkness, these could be applied to both.

I mean, I don't think you should never walk out in the sands, but I think seperating them is a bit more extreme than leaving it up to the player's discretion.

[CodeMaster]

They definitely should be separate, just like slashing and piercing are separate.  As far as I've read in past threads it's just a limitation in the code.

I'd love to see more limitations placed on hide/sneak in general.  Much slower movement while hidden, reduced look distance, inhibited scan, popping out of 'hidden' if you get an Alas, you cannot go that way.

[Fujikoma]

Just like piercing and stabbing are seperate, which, good luck finding a stabbing sparring weapon these days. If you have to ask why that's a problem, you spar too much.