My problem with clans...

[Asmoth]

Alright, so I think most of us have been in a clan, or will be.

My problem is that most clans are so restrictive I find myself having to invent scenarios to make it not so boring.

This probably isn't a big deal, because roleplaying game and all, but it got me thinking about posting a thread about things I think should be changed.

1. Restrictions on going outside the city, yes I know it's dangerous, yes I know that many people die to random mekillots or less.  But we are beautiful animals who need to spread our wings, not wait two months of playing before we start to do stuff.

2. The whole, we gave you one of our one hundred sets of random armor, so you better not piss us off or we will put it back on the stack!  Seriously, if you are getting this shit in game, just to forage salt and roll the dice, you'll be able to buy your own and not have them dangling this over your head.

3. It seems like people want to embrace only the super obedient soldier/clannie etc.  every organization has those people that aren't asskissers, but still get the job done.  While your boss can and may say, do this.  That doesn't mean after you do it you need to instantly seek them out for your next task, your not a dog. I sometimes wanna pick up a large bone and throw it and say get it clannie! Good boy!

4.  This might be just my own experience, but it seems like I tend to join clans where a good chunk of them are idling in clan property, and or off doing their own thing.  Which is fine, but don't get pissy when I notice you sitting in that one room for three hours and decide, fuck it, I'm doing something. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

5. Take away mandatory time limits on promotion.  Make it merit based and not calendar based.

6.  Stop acting like food and water is a suitable payment method.  It's not, really if you've played the game for more than a day, it's not. (This is one of those, Documentation doesn't accurately reflect the game world.  If you want this to be such a huge benefit, then make it one.)

If anything it's just convenient.  Not something that's like OMG THANK YOU.  Even 100 coins a month would be better than payment in food and water.

Random Thought about clans: Stop making sponsored roles for sergeants and shit, make people earn that, no insta buffed badasses because people can't or don't want to become a leader in the clan.

Wishlist:
More fluidity in the clans, if you work for Kadius, and someone wants to buy something simple yet not in a coded store, should be able to sell it if merchant bignuts isn't around.  This making people wait for days shit, just because merchant bignuts is living real life is stupid.

RPTS: organized ooc on the clan boards or ic boards that some folks have in their barracks able to be thought up by anyone.  This goes back to that too much sitting in one room with my thumb up my butt problem.

IC GOSSIP TYPE BOARDS: Every clan should have these, because I don't want to have to check the boards for every single notice or rumor going on in the game.

More personal space: I've spent X years with X clan, but I still bunk up with fifteen other smelly people.  I've thought forever that people should have their own rooms, this would allow bosses the ability to do room inspections, me to randomly knock on the baobab door to see if X and y are fucking again and ruin it.  Etc etc.  while I understand this would take a bit of building, it wouldn't be rocket science.

Those are just some of the problems with clans in my opinion at 4am, I'm sure tomorrow I'll think of some more.

[Malifaxis]

So don't play in clans.

kthx, bai.

[Asmoth]

So don't play in clans.

kthx, bai.

I expected better from you...

[Malifaxis]

Well you certainly put me in my place.  Consider me greatly humbled and now completely on your side of the discussion.

Look dude, sorry you feel that clans do not serve up a lovely platter of Asmoth-oriented awesome, but the pure fact of the matter is that they do work perfectly with the game world.

But since you feel I should justify myself to your great understanding of How Things Work, allow me to point-by-point:

Restrictions: completely understandable and IC.
Gear:  completely realistic and IC.
Obedience: If you can't follow simple instructions, see previous post.
Idling/Roleplaying: Yeah, wow, I can't even.  Usually I can even at least somewhat, but if you can't grasp this basic concept, then I can not pretend to even.
Promotions: Those that do not need their hand held or need constant interaction tend to have this waived in my experience.  Give it a shot sometime?
Food/Water:  Read the basic world docs, because it is.  Kthx.

Sponsored roles: You just perfectly, in one "thought" reinforced my view of how wrongly you see things.  Leader positions need to have the capability of being a leader.  In combat clans, this requires being combative to a competent level.  By your expert reasoning, nobles should not receive stipends because it could be considered a "buff."

I am not even going to address your wishlist, as I have more useful things to do with my time.  If someone else wants to carry that torch, I invite them to.

This game, and the clans in it, have weathered the tests of time and are in a constant shift towards bettering themselves, and while new processes and improvements are constantly being considered and tumbled about in the great player/staff thinktank, the concepts you have put forward do not strike me as being in the better interest of the game, but in the better interest of how you think the game should be in relation to you.

Don't want the rules, then go play an indie, go play a tribal, go feed scrab #2801 and enjoy.  The clans will get along just fine without you.  There are plenty of ways for players of your personality type to enjoy Armageddon.  Accept that there are differences, and move on.

Oh, and thanks for the shoutout, I always do like to keep things real.

[Malifaxis]

Also, I want an award for the longest run-on sentence on GDB 2016.  I worked hard to not properly punctuate that, and I think my effort should be recognized.

[RogueGunslinger]

How long has it been since you played in a clan? A lot of this was addressed in most of them a while ago or is currently in a state of being remedied. Also you peppered your post with things I can only assume to be based on IC events that have nothing to do with the structure of clans. It makes the whole of whatever you were trying to get at incredibly hard to swallow.

[Asmoth]

I'm in a clan now after a long time of not.

And this post is a accumulation of years of playing in clans, granted, those years are quite a few years ago besides current situation.

I totally accept that some of the clans I haven't touched in years are possibly better now.  In fact, god I hope they are.

[Asmoth]

...

Restrictions: completely understandable and IC. (But totally not fun, this is a game.)
Gear:  completely realistic and IC. (See comment about salting never be held prisoner with gear again!)
Obedience: If you can't follow simple instructions, see previous post. (I would consider making up bullshit reasons why I did something against the rule, roleplaying.)
Idling/Roleplaying: Yeah, wow, I can't even.  Usually I can even at least somewhat, but if you can't grasp this basic concept, then I can not pretend to even. (You sound like a girl who works at starbucks right now.  Like really.)
...
Food/Water:  Read the basic world docs, because it is.  Kthx. (Forage food for bulbous, basic world docs destroyed in about one day of foraging)

Sponsored roles: You just perfectly, in one "thought" reinforced my view of how wrongly you see things.  Leader positions need to have the capability of being a leader.  In combat clans, this requires being combative to a competent level.  By your expert reasoning, nobles should not receive stipends because it could be considered a "buff." (I have never played a nooble, but I have played a Kadius family member, and I needed no stipend, selling two things a month with the recommended markup, plus pay was more than enough money for me.)
...

Oh and on the last thing, the sponsored buffs.

I'm talking purely about skill buffs to make new character out the gate "The Ultimate Warrior" so that they can hopefully keep a few Bynners alive more than a week.

Noobles and their ilk, I really don't care what they do.

[Malifaxis]

Again, I reiterate.  If you don't like clans, don't play in them.

Go pkay a tribal, enjoy the game as you will, and necksnap everyone you meet, old vet.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm talking about things like:

"Take away mandatory time limits on promotion.  Make it merit based and not calendar based."
"Restrictions on going outside the city, yes I know it's dangerous, yes I know that many people die to random mekillots or less."

These have been going on for a while in every clan I've been in. I can't remember there being a clan without IC gossip boards.

Personal rooms for long time clannies... I've actually seen this, but it does not make sense for every clan.

This stuff:

"Stop acting like food and water is a suitable payment method." and "Even 100 coins a month would be better than payment in food and water."

Are you talking about for recruits? They're the only one's who are only paid in food/water. Food, Water, and a cot to sleep in is like living in luxury. It costs WAY more than 100 coins a month as an indie.... Unless you only ever play rangers who sneak out of their clans to forage and hunt? Have you even ever tried asking for permission? Not everyone in zalanthas can forage food and kill animals, have you never considered playing one of them? Do you just expect clans to start handing you gear and benefits before you've even stuck around long enough for them to judge your characters character?

Literally everything you're talking about as a problem, that isn't based on weird personal IC stuff where you're confusing being punished ICly with being punished OOCly, is something I've already seen addressed by staff in clans.

[LauraMars]

What's up every one? It is I, a tyrannical, too big for my britches helper. While the passion on display here is admirable, the gdb is not a place to hold thinly veiled personal arguments or snipe back and forth about....things. I will leave this thread unlocked in the hope that it turns into a useful and reasonable discussion. Consider the wisdom of this course of action, and have a beautiful day. Thanks!

[WanderingOoze]

Ive been given promotions and kudos for a character who was a hoplessly lazy, chore skipping
utter thorn in his bosses side. Fun times.

[Majikal]

Alright, so I think most of us have been in a clan, or will be.

My problem is that most clans are so restrictive I find myself having to invent scenarios to make it not so boring.

This probably isn't a big deal, because roleplaying game and all, but it got me thinking about posting a thread about things I think should be changed.

1. Restrictions on going outside the city, yes I know it's dangerous, yes I know that many people die to random mekillots or less.  But we are beautiful animals who need to spread our wings, not wait two months of playing before we start to do stuff.
Restrictions make sense ic and ooc. If you don't want restrictions then don't play in clans.

2. The whole, we gave you one of our one hundred sets of random armor, so you better not piss us off or we will put it back on the stack!  Seriously, if you are getting this shit in game, just to forage salt and roll the dice, you'll be able to buy your own and not have them dangling this over your head.
I can also make a subguild tailor and spamcraft in Red Storm to stack coin. I can be richer than nobles inside a month with no risk and have nobody lording over me because I'm wearing their clan t-shirt. If that's the character you want to play then go play it. Meanwhile my pc might accept joining a House as an Employee for the status upgrade and opportunities it provides to my pc.


3. It seems like people want to embrace only the super obedient soldier/clannie etc.  every organization has those people that aren't asskissers, but still get the job done.  While your boss can and may say, do this.  That doesn't mean after you do it you need to instantly seek them out for your next task, your not a dog. I sometimes wanna pick up a large bone and throw it and say get it clannie! Good boy!
Is this a gripe about archetypes of pcs? Don't think I've ever had a clan just be clones of good-boy pc's. Maybe you're always the bad boy so it feels this way? I dunno.

4.  This might be just my own experience, but it seems like I tend to join clans where a good chunk of them are idling in clan property, and or off doing their own thing.  Which is fine, but don't get pissy when I notice you sitting in that one room for three hours and decide, fuck it, I'm doing something. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Lots of players play from work and do their best to make themselves available and reachable, I'm one of these players at times actually. I would stow myself in my office and leave my barrier down while I worked irl so that if underlings needed to reach me they could. While idling publicly (barracks or something) might cause an inconvenience to you when you try to chat them up, remember it's a game and they're not doing it to piss you off. If they don't respond, carry on doing what you do boo, I doubt they'll hold it against you ic.

5. Take away mandatory time limits on promotion.  Make it merit based and not calendar based.
Never led a clan that I didn't treat this way in some regard. Never played in a clan where I didn't receive a promotion in this fashion. #getgud

6.  Stop acting like food and water is a suitable payment method.  It's not, really if you've played the game for more than a day, it's not. (This is one of those, Documentation doesn't accurately reflect the game world.  If you want this to be such a huge benefit, then make it one.)
Roleplay is a thing. Desert wasteland... yeah I know where the waterholes are, yeah I know I can pick a forage food guild/sub.. or maybe I can roleplay that water and food is a valuable comodity and stick with the theme of the world.

If anything it's just convenient.  Not something that's like OMG THANK YOU.  Even 100 coins a month would be better than payment in food and water.
See above.

Random Thought about clans: Stop making sponsored roles for sergeants and shit, make people earn that, no insta buffed badasses because people can't or don't want to become a leader in the clan.
It does get earned ic, I can think of 2 leaders ig currently that were earned and not apped in, I've played 2 that reached 'sergeant' or a similar rank through ic actions. Sometimes there's nobody available for leadership and they gotta 'hire out' for a Sergeant or Noble so the clan doesn't thrash around without it's figurehead or a source of leadership. As to 'buffing' these leadership roles not only does it make more sense for the character to exist but if you'd rather have your leader out twinking their skills so they can survive the exercises they're supposed to be leading instead of providing their time and effort to make the game enjoyable for their underlings... guess that's cool too.

Wishlist:
More fluidity in the clans, if you work for Kadius, and someone wants to buy something simple yet not in a coded store, should be able to sell it if merchant bignuts isn't around.  This making people wait for days shit, just because merchant bignuts is living real life is stupid.
Sacrifice realistic roleplay for loot? Sounds good. *thumbs up* Take into consideration you'd be robbing the roleplay out from under Merchant Bignuts for the sake of Teh Lootz. If players are bothered by having to wait for thier ruby earrings or thier blade of maiming +3 they could always contact that clans staff and get some venbot npc's to handle the transaction if it's a schedule issue or something. Most clans (like the new byn rank) however have adopted sort of an inbetween pc that does in fact do things like sell for the merchants when they aren't around or take contracts like a Sergeant to some degree

RPTS: organized ooc on the clan boards or ic boards that some folks have in their barracks able to be thought up by anyone.  This goes back to that too much sitting in one room with my thumb up my butt problem.
Huh?

IC GOSSIP TYPE BOARDS: Every clan should have these, because I don't want to have to check the boards for every single notice or rumor going on in the game.
I think it's just flavor, all clans do have an ic gossip pc or rumor board. It's just the way it is that most players prefer the clan forums for ease of access.

More personal space: I've spent X years with X clan, but I still bunk up with fifteen other smelly people.  I've thought forever that people should have their own rooms, this would allow bosses the ability to do room inspections, me to randomly knock on the baobab door to see if X and y are fucking again and ruin it.  Etc etc.  while I understand this would take a bit of building, it wouldn't be rocket science.
Some clans have something like this, some don't. The ones that don't have a reason. The ones that do have a reason. Check out the gameworld and figure out where your pc actually fits into it. If your pc wants a fancy room or a noble-bought apartment and silk sheets then they can go looking for a job that offers that. If your pc wants to be a dirty merc who sleeps on a nasty pallet while they nurse the days bruises and carry their life's belongings in their backpack. Do that.

Those are just some of the problems with clans in my opinion at 4am, I'm sure tomorrow I'll think of some more.
Sounds like clans just aren't for you bud. Find something that is and let that rock your socks off. I go back and forth, sometimes I love me some clanned play and sometimes I don't.

[Kankfly]

Um... Okay. I didn't know where to begin. But there's already been some good points made.

1. Restrictions on going outside the city, yes I know it's dangerous, yes I know that many people die to random mekillots or less.  But we are beautiful animals who need to spread our wings, not wait two months of playing before we start to do stuff.

The point of this rule is... I don't think I need to explain this, right? Since you already said you know it's dangerous. You said it's a game, but at the same time this is an RPI. If you personally feel you're able to brave the dangerous outdoors, then don't join the clan. There's pros and cons when it comes to being either clanless or clanned, and I think you'll need to have to brave them depending on the choices you make, or suffer the IC consequences.

2. The whole, we gave you one of our one hundred sets of random armor, so you better not piss us off or we will put it back on the stack!  Seriously, if you are getting this shit in game, just to forage salt and roll the dice, you'll be able to buy your own and not have them dangling this over your head.

Even in real life, you don't expect to get stuff just by being around and not doing anything, much less a harsh world like Zalanthas. If I'm investing a set of gears to you, that means I expect some sort of pay back, hence the word: Investing. No one in their right minds in Zalanthas will offer someone they just employed a bunch of things, unless they feel there is something they can potentially earn back in return. If you can get a good amount of 'sids for some badass armor from Salarr just by foraging salt, then good for you! There's really no need to join a clan in that case, since all you seem to want from the clan is free food, water, and a safe place to sleep without anyone stealing your things when you get beat up in sparring.

If you think making some bullshit excuses, 'cos roleplaying, then by all means go ahead. You'll also have to face IC consequences depending on the bullshit excuses that you made up as to why you're going out and foraging for salt when you're explicitly told not to.

It seems like people want to embrace only the super obedient soldier/clannie etc.  every organization has those people that aren't asskissers, but still get the job done.  While your boss can and may say, do this.  That doesn't mean after you do it you need to instantly seek them out for your next task, your not a dog. I sometimes wanna pick up a large bone and throw it and say get it clannie! Good boy!

Yes. If I'm the boss, I would embrace the super obedient soldier/clannie because I know they're dependable, especially if I throw them a task and they do it immediately. I don't exactly know what your gripe here is about. Are you trying to say that you want clan leaders to stop recruiting dependable, obedient, effective people and get lazy, disobedient people that's always constantly not doing what they're told?

This might be just my own experience, but it seems like I tend to join clans where a good chunk of them are idling in clan property, and or off doing their own thing.  Which is fine, but don't get pissy when I notice you sitting in that one room for three hours and decide, fuck it, I'm doing something. Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

Your first bit of that complaint seems to be about clannies in general, but your second bit of the complaint seems to be about leader PCs. So here's my take on it:

Before I started any leadership roles, I've always wondered why they seem so distracted, or why didn't they respond to me when I'm asking them stuff. Stuff which are - to me- super important and deserves and instant response. Having gotten the experience of a leadership role, I understand that PC leaders got a lot in their minds. Literally. Everyone wants a piece of the PC, whether it's about clan stuff, underlings asking about clan stuff, personal plot stuff, etcetc. There's a lot of things going on with a PC leader, and if they seem to be idling to you, maybe it's because they really are just very busy.

If you're talking about clannies in general, well, you don't have to cater to them specifically. Going out of the city isn't the only way to keep yourself busy. There's a lot of options, which I don't think I need to elaborate here, since you already said it yourself that you've had years of arm experience.

Take away mandatory time limits on promotion.  Make it merit based and not calendar based.

I have witnessed PCs that didn't have to go through an entire length of recruit time to be promoted to whatever rank that comes after. This comes with the leader PC's discretion, and how well that person performed during that period of time as a recruit.

Stop acting like food and water is a suitable payment method.  It's not, really if you've played the game for more than a day, it's not. (This is one of those, Documentation doesn't accurately reflect the game world.  If you want this to be such a huge benefit, then make it one.

If you read the docs, read the room descriptions, read the echoes and everything else, you'll realize that water is scarce in Zalanthas. Even though you can forage bulbs, know where all the water spots are, it doesn't change the fact that the entire known is like that.

Stop making sponsored roles for sergeants and shit, make people earn that, no insta buffed badasses because people can't or don't want to become a leader in the clan.

While this may work in some clans, ie. militia/Byn/GMH, this doesn't work in other clans, such as noble houses. There are also various instances where PCs that are in clans die off, store, or simply do not want to play leadership, so staff sends out a role call to keep things rolling. When that happens, leaders are expected to be badasses. How else are they going to train a unit of dumbass recruits how to fight?

I've spent X years with X clan, but I still bunk up with fifteen other smelly people.  I've thought forever that people should have their own rooms, this would allow bosses the ability to do room inspections, me to randomly knock on the baobab door to see if X and y are fucking again and ruin it.  Etc etc.  while I understand this would take a bit of building, it wouldn't be rocket science.

They're called apartments, and bosses really don't have the time to do surprise inspections. If you want a place to mudsex, rent a room with your local bartender.

[Asmoth]

I'll think of a way to more succinctly say what I'm meaning to say when I have more sleep.

But one thing I forgot to mention too is the clans determination that every action you do is for the clan.

If I'm a Kadius Hunter and I got out and kill a scrab, then they instantly own all of it.  I get a guy who says, hey you're an outdoorsy fellow, go get me this random bobble from the desert, if you go get that random bobble, you are circumventing the houses authority!  No, it's called work and personal.

so again, just complaining without recommending a better way is worthless so now we'll play if I was Sergeant Commander Asmoth of fluffy merchant house.

If I was SC of FMH, I would have my people collect their job work, grebbings, hides etc, in one specific place so that I could inspect and see what they are doing and how well.  Giving them feedback such as, Well Junior, two chalton hides for seven weeks is piss poor, what do you work here for?  Or, Hey noticed you filled up that chest I gave you, keep up the good work the crafters love you. Or some subset of that.

This way if you're the productive character, you can go pursue your side work, and nobody gives a shit because you're doing your job.

Now I'm not saying fire the casual who plays two days a week, but I am saying that we should have to sign our lives away to a clan in order to be a "good employee".

Maybe it's because it's easy, or maybe it's a typical arm argue end of "it's always been this way". But I have been in multiple clans that all said everything you produce is ours never give a single piece of meat away without our blessing or hell and brimstone!  And that's ridiculous and not realistic.

[Nergal]

I don't actually get what the point of this thread is. Your problem with clans seems to be that it's different from not being in a clan. Yes, it is.

There's been improvement in many clans to make them more worthwhile for long-term play - the changes to the Byn and GMHs are among the more recent ones.

[Asmoth]

I don't actually get what the point of this thread is. Your problem with clans seems to be that it's different from not being in a clan. Yes, it is.

There's been improvement in many clans to make them more worthwhile for long-term play - the changes to the Byn and GMHs are among the more recent ones.

I guess a simple answer to the point is that there isn't a benefit for it.

Being in a clan according to documentation is supposed to be some amazing honor and huge benefit.

I'm trying to find said benefit, assuming I missed it somewhere in the silt.

And what are those changes? It seems to be the same song and dance from five years ago.

I don't have very good forums KungFu so I have no idea what you guys have changed besides maybe the layout of the gmhs building wise.

BTW, this isn't a staff sucks or leaders in clans suck thing at all.

It's more of a this doesn't make sense to me.

[Nergal]

The Byn changes can be found out IG. Read the rumor board in Allanak. Here are details on the GMH changes that were made a month ago: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50315.0.html

In any case, the primary point of playing a game is to have fun. That said, some players enjoy the gameplay benefits of being in a clan: instantly having people to interact with, instantly having safety in numbers, instantly being able to play a type of character (for example, you can't really play a corrupt law enforcer if you're not in the AoD), instantly being injected into that clan's plots, and having a path to social advancement.

Some players enjoy the gameplay benefits of not being in a clan: no time restrictions or obligations (play whenever you want, and do whatever you want). Easier to RP a character that scrapes by - not every indie has to be a rich super-hunter, some PCs can be normal too. On the other end of the spectrum, some indies might like to take a crack at the player-created clan system, which offers social advancement.

I'm sure there are many more benefits on either side - I'm not going to bother listing them all - but the point is that that gameplay benefits exceed any benefit one's character might receive, materially, because ultimately that stuff doesn't matter in a game. What matters is that you enjoy your character. Frankly that's probably as good as it's going to get. Trying to balance recruit pay/the overall economy just because it's possible for an indie to do better in that area is worthless when what's really needed is for clans to step up and show their dominance in terms of things like plot potential and character interaction.

I've been experimenting with GMHs in particular for quite a while and look forward to continue tweaking/supporting changes and plots so that the players have fun. That is my top priority right now, and I think it's a priority other staff share.

[Asmoth]

The Byn changes can be found out IG. Read the rumor board in Allanak. Here are details on the GMH changes that were made a month ago: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50315.0.html

In any case, the primary point of playing a game is to have fun. That said, some players enjoy the gameplay benefits of being in a clan: instantly having people to interact with, instantly having safety in numbers, instantly being able to play a type of character (for example, you can't really play a corrupt law enforcer if you're not in the AoD), instantly being injected into that clan's plots, and having a path to social advancement.

Some players enjoy the gameplay benefits of not being in a clan: no time restrictions or obligations (play whenever you want, and do whatever you want). Easier to RP a character that scrapes by - not every indie has to be a rich super-hunter, some PCs can be normal too. On the other end of the spectrum, some indies might like to take a crack at the player-created clan system, which offers social advancement.

I'm sure there are many more benefits on either side - I'm not going to bother listing them all - but the point is that that gameplay benefits exceed any benefit one's character might receive, materially, because ultimately that stuff doesn't matter in a game. What matters is that you enjoy your character. Frankly that's probably as good as it's going to get. Trying to balance recruit pay/the overall economy just because it's possible for an indie to do better in that area is worthless when what's really needed is for clans to step up and show their dominance in terms of things like plot potential and character interaction.

I've been experimenting with GMHs in particular for quite a while and look forward to continue tweaking/supporting changes and plots so that the players have fun. That is my top priority right now, and I think it's a priority other staff share.

I appreciate the answer to the question.
Only thing I can say as an outsider looking in is I hope that you figure out how to make a merchant house or clans in general more of a sought after ideal, oocly.

I took a stab at it because why not, but as of right now I'm sorta hating it.

And no I'm not talking about making being an Indy more expensive or harder, because I've always felt that ig effort should equate into reward.

It's tricky though, I see from the discussion of the gmh change that some people are butthurt about life oath changes. So you're never gonna make everyone happy I suppose.

I do support that change though because now you aren't stuck in one organization forever due to becoming a private or whatever and hating it then needing to store or suicide.

I have been reading up on player created clans though and think it's a definite step in the right direction.  If any critique could be made on those it's the ig time required for some of the levels and the fact it just dies with the creator.

But I dunno, I look forward to seeing what you change for the better or worse.

[Delirium]

I liked clans, and then I hated clans, now I like them again. For a while they felt stagnant. But they're pretty great places to be these days.

If once upon a time you didn't like them, try them again.

[Lizzie]

Asmoth it sounds like your opinion is based on a mixing of IC understanding and OOC understanding. When you do that, you will always come out feeling bereft.

ICly, your -character- only knows about the watering holes if you, the player, have chosen for him to know about them. UNLESS he learns about them ICly. And forcing your character to discover what you already know is there, just so that you can have your character know about them, and then complaining that your character knows how to get water and therefore doesn't need a clan - is a metagame problem, not a game problem.

I know the game world pretty well, west to east, north to south, hidden rooms and crevices, cubbies and secret attics and obscured exits. My character only knows about them if it makes sense for her to know about them. My character also will not ever find out about them, if it makes no sense for her to find out about them. So that hidden room in the northeast corner of the grasslands? She's from Red Storm, and has only heard about the grasslands. She has no knowledge of that room, or the demon that lives in it, or its minions, because none of the people she hangs out with have ever been there either, except this one guy who went and never returned. But if you want to know what's in the hole in Public Alley #4 - she's your go-to gal.

My rinthi characters know where the "safe rooms" are. But they don't know where the same rooms are in the Canyon of Wastes. My ATV elves know every cave in the tablelands. But they don't know dick about the silt sea (except that it's over yonder and no we're not going).

My magick characters might or might not know about magicks, depending on their background and experience. Even though I know most of the spell lists and what each spell does and how to branch each one to max it up, it still might take RL months before they ever get a third-tier branch. And that's only if they don't die first.

You have to treat each character as an individual, with its own brain, body, knowledge, and experiences. If you bring your OOC knowledge of the world into your characters just because you can - then you're going to have similar experiences with each and it'll grow stale fairly quickly.  It takes OOC skill, in my opinion, to create a "freshness" of experience with subsequent characters, the more you know about the game world. If you lack that skill, then no, you won't find clans very rewarding. But you'll also start finding independent gaming unrewarding after awhile too because - been there done that from an OOC perspective will trump ignorance from an IC perspective.

It's the approach to the gaming itself that makes or breaks your enjoyment.

tl;dr: just because you the player knows stuff doesn't mean your character -should- know stuff. Understanding and appreciating the difference is what will get you to enjoy clan roleplay.

[Miradus]

My own experience (limited):

9am log on ... nobody around ... Me: "Being in a clan sucks! I want to go forage roots and tubers but I can't. I wish I was an indy again."

9:37am, two people in the clan log on. Me: "OMG this clan is fun! Why didn't I try this sooner? Clans are awesome I want to be in one for every character!"

My real world military experience, some 25 years back, went much the same way. Clean the barracks day? Military life SUCKS. Roll out in a convoy day? Woohoo! I'm awesome! I'm going to retire in the service!"

[Chettaman]

*also thank you, Lizzie. I enjoyed that.
back in the day, I've heard, people did things for prestige and not cool stuff you get in game.

Please read this post. I'm full of myself and I think I always do better at explaining the everyone else.

I'm going to do my  best not to be snipey, but I don't agree with a majority of what the OP so it's going to be me trying to explain myself in a way Asmoth can understand, since I've noticed everyone else has just said he was wrong.

•Food and water for pay
So this is a roleplaying game. And it seems to me that you don't fully understand the world you're roleplaying in. And please give me a chance to explain, because I understand that you have a ranger mind-set. That you're playing a game. We're all playing game. Of course a person can just go out into the desert go salting and make enough to feed themselves or go hunting and feed themselves and half the damn city ... for a day. We all, as roleplayers understand where you're coming from. But you may not understand that there are people who are afraid to do, in the real world and in game. There are people who would rather starve than even take a chance stepping out of the city and being eaten anyway. People who look out into the desert and are paralyzed. What if they got lost out there in all that sand and heat and no highlord to protect them?
And then there are people who have a craft. They've been doing it their whole lives, the person who taught them had been doing it the same way and they don't need to change. And you may not know, but people (in real life and in game) are fucking stupid. And even if change is what they need and they see it clearly, they won't do it. Sometimes these people have good reasons. Sometimes they don't. Whichever, the fact is that they don't change. And not because the IMMs say they shouldn't, it's because it's realistic.
This is the world you live in firstly:
There are people who live on the streets. Who sleep, eat, shit, work and even die in the streets. In this roleplaying game the people in charge of the GMH are cheap assholes and anyone who is tired of struggling to survive join them and are glad to be able to lay around then pretend to work when people are looking. Does everyone who works for a GMH work hard? Eff no. And the leaders know this, so they don't /waste/ their money on idiots. They keep their idiots alive, though and are content when they do something...
if you get promoted, you either deserve it or someone was in a good enough mood. (more on promotion later)

•restrictions on leaving the city:
I do actually agree with you. I know that salarr allows recruits ''free-ish'' roam around and that makes sense, because they're hunters. While a bynner has no need to leave the gate because they should be training until the gates close anyway - why can't a guy go out and burn his hands digging for salt on a day off? Because someone said so. Which I can understand is a powerful statement in this game, but still. I think if someone wants to leave the city responsibly or otherwise, they should be allowed to.
At the same time - in a roleplaying aspect there is a person in control of the organization who is really fucking tired of seeing his potential soldiers die so he makes changes to prevent it. This also happens in real life, if you've ever been in a military organization. Someone gets crushed once by a large vehicle backing up and now /no/ one is allowed to be between a large vehicle and a hard place or it's punishable by law. For real, this happens.

• getting free armor and getting it taken away now stand in the corner
uh. Okay, big guy. Go out and get your own armor. I'm pretty sure that's what your employers would rather you do anyway. This can't be a real issue, I feel like you were taking a stab at someone with this.
I think it makes sense for a character to punish an underling they don't like or that displeased them. It's your own fault, man for being so unpleasing. Even if you were number one or did the best. What some other character does to yours is their decision. You deal with them ICly (violently or non-violently). And... you did. You said eff it, I'll get my own armor. (I would like to joke and bully you, but I realize this is a serious post. But just know... I would of been funnier.)

• ass kissers
This is indeed a roleplaying game where people can control characters and what they do. You should try to spread more awareness in game about not being an ass kisser - and out of game too! starting here! I like your thinking! Revolution!  but no belittling other players playing styles, please. You rebel.

• idling
Yeah, what majikal said. Some people try to be as convenient to others as possible from work and bla bla bla, so they idle. I mean... it happens, ya know. Me, personally I've done odd things in front of them whenever I noticed them ''krath struck''. Haven't been clanned in a while, but I plan to do this full force to the next idle clanny shows their face. And, of course I understand that they're idling. Oh well. It's a game.

• time based promotion
Any action from another character is based on that character's thoughts and feelings. You just have to put yourself out there. Because... heh heh... I had a character that deserved promotion so bad. SOOOO bad. And he never got it. In fact; despite being the most loyal, work efficient legionaire, he was exiled for taking a fork from a high born's aide.
I know, as a person, and my character was completely oblivious, that... the templars in charge of me didn't want to pay me for my excellent works. And they knew I would continue my excellent works without promotion. But they would say it every time they saw me, "You're up for promotion pretty soon, aren't you?" xD You jahean assholes.
- anyway - some rules if not all of them are just guidelines. The truth is, people can do whatever the hell they can get away with. Communicate regularly with staff too - it seems like they're always busy, (and they are) but they usually get back to you in a timely manner to realize truths and possibilities.

[I want to say right now, because I'll forget later that you can send in requests for RPTs as normal people. You can plan super fun things to happen on your average day out grebbing salt or mining mountains. or to kill a certain someone. as normal people. I did /not/ know this before I needed it. So I'm saying it now!]

• Insta- buffed assholes
leaders are supposed to be leaders. They are supposed to of already done the shit you're doing. Now they're going to teach you and make you better. (albeit I haven't seen teaching, but I haven't been clanned for some time) - but that's what they're supposed to do and this is why it makes sense to buff their assholes. Excuse me. To have buffed assholes.
It's like a special app. Anyone can get one of these assholes. I feel like it just makes sense to have a leader with appropriate skills. My suggestion would be - if you're a badass in your clan and your buffed asshole dies then immediately wish up for promotion or send in a request to be promoted. Don't wait to be promoted or noticed, because you probably won't be. They may still make a roll call anyway, but you know. I've never tried doing this, and it's actually an idea that just came to me that I will be doing in the future.

• More fluidity
You can wish all, the rumor is and have an IMM complete a transaction with you or something. I think? Eh... I've got no real advice on this one. Some merchants just have busy real lives, ya know? You can roleplay being angry with them. Do that. More IC stuff and not OOC stuff. Get them in trouble in game so they get replaced by someone who actually does their job. Ha! Advice.

•RPTs:
I think if /everyone/ knew what salarr was up to, it would be cool.
... but that's what spies are for. >: D

• IC gossip boards
they're usually people and not boards like in the taverns. They're there, though. And spies often use them for knowledge seeking. Muahahaha! ... or they should.

• rooms for clannies
Some clans do this for people who deserve it. Some clans are cheap assholes. Some make you full family members then you get to stay in the actual house. People can do whatever the hell they can get away with. Sharing a room with every other person who works for a house saves space and money ICly. ICly and OOCly you should want something more. (or... you could care less it's your choice.)

I would tell you to play something completely mundane like... a human pick-pocket general-crafter in allanak. That's hard mode. If you were an elf it would be nightmare mode.
I know /I/ could do this, especially as an elf, but for some it seems near impossible to enjoy. You may learn the truth of things, yet.

[Molten Heart]

Freedom is good. Repeatedly pigeonholing characters into the same role creates robots, boring robots. Robots are bad.

[Saellyn]

If you let yourself be pigeon-holed that's your own fault. There's plenty of freedom in whatever role you play, if you want to look for it.