Wouldn't it be awesome if this rotted on me... (decay idea thread)

[nauta]

With the decay stuff, it seems our scylla on the one hand are the casual players -- ameliorated by the fact that, when logged out, items on your person do not decay -- and our charybdis on the other is realism or simulation.

So, here are some things that I think probably should decay like food does (based on realism):

o untanned hides (all of them), but not shells, horns, bones, etc.

o organs (in general: entrails! sinews! intestines! stomachs!)

o undried leaves (give them a long shelf life, but still a shelf life) leaf hunting is fun!

o tablets (give them a long shelf life, but still a shelf life) but not vials (make vials more common!)

I'm not sure what the 'code' is actually like here, but here are some items that I think should wear out on 'use' (rather than naturally decay):

o clothing

o armor

o weapons

[Harmless]

I did like the idea of untanned hides rotting because tanning them preserves them (hopefully permanently for playability) and in real life hides with meat and fat attached definitely rot. any change that adds functionality to craft skills is a + for me.

I like nauta's idea for tablets spoiling but vials staying preserved, the idea of finding an ancient vial in the dust or buried in the sand is awesome, whereas tablets should appropriately decay. Maybe give them the equivalent of a RL year to do so, though, say 3 RL months of logged in time (that's a long ass time). Tablets are also pretty easily replaced.. well, some of them. And this would end up being a boost to poisoning.

Leaves are close to food and should maybe rot, but it'd be even better if we could dry leaves and preserve them.

Organs should definitely rot andI think some count as food already and thus already will.

I don't want clothes to "rot." Same for armor, and weapons.. most of the time those are very sturdy materials and have been treated with dyes or satchets of urine, etc, so that they won't.

[nauta]

Leaves are close to food and should maybe rot, but it'd be even better if we could dry leaves and preserve them.

With leaves, you can dry some but not all of them with the floristry skill.  I wish more guilds/subguilds had the floristry skill.

Maybe:

o merge floristry with brew (call it 'plant lore')
o add drying recipes for almost all leaves / flowers out there.

[Asmoth]

I like most of this except the pills/tablets part because drugs can still work after 40 years.

http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/expired-meds.shtml

[Refugee]

I'm against tablets decaying.  When you need one, you need it immediately and you don't have time to wander around looking for a green tablet like you could with just about anything else in game.

I suppose if they showed that they were near decay for quite awhile before they became ineffective, it would be acceptable.  But when you're just starting out and scraping for coin for water and food, having to continually replace your very necessary set of cures could be difficult.  Some of them are hard to find too.

I'm generally against the decaying thing, I know!  I think it just makes it much more difficult for new players.  I also played in Atonement, where there was just so much time put into maintenance of -everything- that it was a second grind in addition to the skill grind.  One more boring thing you have to do every day, every damn day, just so you can get to the playing part.

[Dresan]

I don't like using the world decay for armor and weapons. However, its the same idea. At some point they should need replacing, and it shouldn't be for another better weapon/armor, it should be because the weapon/gear has been used so much it cannot. Bones break, shell shatters, and leather tears after a while, if not that the thread/gunk that holds it together will break or give out eventually.

However, I understand a case can be made for armor/weapon to lasting forever, but this isn't an argument for realism. This is an idea to improve the economy and increase the value/demand of coins in the game.

Right now in the game you can calculate exactly how much a new character needs to buy an ideal set of armor/weapons for their guild/sub-guild. After they've reached that point, they need for coins goes down dramatically. How quickly people reach that point depends on their play style but its not very hard to manage. Sure there could be some money sinks such as food/water/apartment and stabling fees, but there are ways around these expenses. Unlike other expenses with armor/weapons a one time investment is all your need and you are set. This mean that after a certain point, risking your character for obsidian isn't really worth your time.  The only people that need coins are new character and there are safer and easier ways abiet boring to get it. You just need to put X amount of time, get your nice pieces of gear and never have to do it again.

There are so many pieces of armor and weapons in the game that are not high quality, but cheap and useful but never get used one because people can just save up for the best kurac/salarr sell instead. By making it so that you eventually need to replace armor and weapon we make it so gear works like apartments and food. Sure its great when you can afford the most expensive places or food, but there are much cheaper alternatives that might better suit your budget. You don't NEED to buy the very best gear the GMH have to offer, you can instead buy something cheaper which will last you just as long, and then if it gets ruined after a IC year or two, you will have enough coins to by another set. Perhaps you can buy some things a crafter makes, there is no reason their products should only be popular with new characters.

By increasing the demand of gear (weapons/armor) we also increase the need to go out and get those resources. Right now the only people that can make the very best gear are the merchant houses but this will create niches and more opportunity for independents and other crafters to offer valuable goods at more affordable prices. Again these items should only 'delay' when worn so encouraging people to wear normal clothing might be a nice boon to tailors and assassins trying to find ways through all that heavy armor.

Again it just comes down to the idea that there is so much gear in the game, and PCs don't always need to be wearing or using the very best gear. Some IC years you can afford it, some  IC years you just can't and you wear something not as good. Someone trying to pay for your services in a set of studded armors might be a damn good deal. And those bounties/reward might be worth doing because you will definitely need those coins in the future.

This game has needed more money sinks for a long time, and its getting them; apartments, armor repair, bank withdraws fees and now i feel food decay will help too. There is no reason why PC have to be decked out in the best gear outside custom gear, these things shouldn't be a one time purchase.  An increased desire for more coins will encourage more interaction and thus more plots. And it is a desire, not need, because you will always be able to afford adequate gear, apartment, and nutrition without much effort or work.

[valeria]

Clothing, armor, and weapons should not rot.  But they should suffer consistent wear and tear from being used.  Right now, it doesn't seem like they are consistently affected by use.

I don't like the idea of tablets rotting, but I do like the idea of unpreserved hides rotting.  Everything else I'm rather 'meh' about.

[Case]

I'm actually pro rot but just food and untanned hides and whatever.

Weapon damage would be neat, especially if it's tied to quality in the first place.

[Dresan]

This is my original armor/weapon idea from RAT(posting it here just so it doesn't get lost there):

After a year or two of using these items, they should be ruined, regardless of how much repair you've done to them. Armor timer should decay when worn, weapons when held, and mounts when used. However I don't want to see them disappear or crack, fucking over someone. Rather see them become ruined or useless, weapons becoming practically sparring weapons at best. And while people can argue as to why these things could last forever, lets think of the benefits that this would bring to the game. It doesn't take long for everyone and their mothers to go buy the same sets of perfect armor, and never have to change them until they die. There is alot of gear in the game that almost never gets used because people just go for the best right away. Armor weapons should get damaged more in combat, and shouldn't last forever even if repaired. I can see clanned members being supplied with good armor regularly and byn supplied with very basic armor. The best salarr and kurac have to offer should be a recurring cost. Every year or two at the most people should be paying for new sets of armor and weapons.

[BadSkeelz]

No more rot timing based on an arbitrary clock.


Weapons wearing down after use would be kind of neat.

[Dresan]

There are a lot of neat naturally occurring items coded in the world which can serve as weapons or even shields, however I've never seen one being used. And why would you? When chances are you've already bought a wickedly sharp blade of awesomeness from Salarr to last you for a lifetime.

I know there have been recent coded changes to armor repair and I have a lot of respect for the work put into it. However, I honestly would rather see gear slowly wear, not disappear or break but degrade to a point where it just needs replacing. Again hopefully increasing the demand for the stuff people make and increasing the desire to earn coins which in turn will generate more interaction and plots as money changes hands more.

For the merchant guild and thus GMH(I believe), it takes 1 RL month to make custom stuff, this is mostly by design since the time doesn't change even after a custom piece has been approved by staff. This is to show its rarity and outline the difficulty to make a unique piece. As for everything else they can sell, that has recently changed, GMH PC merchants should now have access to NPC vendors who will sell them the gear, unlike in the old days when staff had to load  stuff for them. So there is no more waiting for anyone and less work for staff.  

[Refugee]

No, we're saying, we don't want to grind and grind to maintain whatever we have.  I'd rather log in and go do whatever I want, whether it's hunting or politicking or drinking at the bar.  I don't want to -have- to do boring maintenance things, or -have- to go pick up salt or hack sid all the time to get someone else to do boring maintenance things. 

Washing the dishes, mowing the lawn, doing the laundry - that's what you're talking about.  Chores that never stop.  That you have to do to play.  If someone enjoys doing those repetitive things, if that's what their game is about, there's no reason they can't junk their stuff and do it.

I think the game has just about enough grinding aspects.

[Dresan]

Again the only shit you -have- to do to play and survive is afford food and water. That is not changing so if you've been doing chores to manage that, you might be doing something wrong. The type of money sink I am talking about, already exists in the game. You want to maintain that apartment? Then you better make some sid. I don't see that changing either.

Not sure why people think their character is entitled to the best armor and weapons, more so than the best apartments. The grind you talk about doesn't exist unless you make it exist for yourself. They current level of 'grind' as you guys like to put it, does not have to change, just the shit people are wearing might be more modest in the future.

Not to mention you can still join a clan who will feed and clothed you, plus give you a locker.  So there is always a way for people to completely opt out.


If people don't die regularly in the game with a healthy population there would almost be no demand for goods from PCs. There is already almost no value to coins for people who have lived for a certain number of days. You end up with a game where no one has any incentive to do shit unless your PC was threatened to do it.  

[hopeandsorrow]

I wouldn't mind weapons/armor wearing out a bit sometimes.  At a rate that makes it feel 'real' but not so fast it's annoying.

I think I've only every had one piece of armor wear out... ever.  That's of the course of many combat characters with varying degrees of getting fucked up.

Thought I find people who grind salt or sid mine to order 1 large value swords from Salaar for their grebber/hunter character funny.  I never get to gear focused or anything, I dunno doesn't fit with my idea on how to play the game.

Perhaps why a lot of my indies got harassed a lot, for not having the expensive sword of doom with the dinosaur armor colored as black as my soul.

Of course also I don't completely abuse the living shit out of salting or the red storm tailor quest.  If anything I use them to get sort of to base line goals to maintain my PC's desired life style.

I sort of picked through the thread, people really play this game like an MMO looking for all that sweet GMH gear?  Most of the stuff I find lying on the ground seems sufficient for my happiness, some times I wish there was more random, low tier, mid tier, weapons of various makes.

[nauta]

Re: clothing/armor/weapons wearing out:

o I actually like finding that tattered or used piece of armor/clothing now and then, for some characters.  It gives them style.

o I would hope the wear-down code were such that it would take the average Bynner or Kuraci about 2-3 RL years before they'd have to replace their armor completely.  That is, something suitably non-annoying for playability.

But, um, don't we already have this implemented?  I've literally never had any clothing/armor of mine change, except maybe it loses the 'new' flag.  Never checked closely.

Anyone know how it works now?

[Asmoth]

I don't think people should have to choose between nice armor or an apartment.

On the subject of economy it's a tricking fucking one though, do you make it so harsh that people die?  Do you make everything extremely expensive so only the truly exceptional can thrive? What effect will that have on those who don't know the tricks of the trade?

Is it possible to make a very profitable living on salting and mining alone? Yup, better than most clan jobs! But honestly it's better to have it glass half full than half empty because if you make it too hard to survive, then people will quit playing.

Making it balanced is a bitch, so better to lean to the side of too easy than too hard.

[Saellyn]

Re: clothing/armor/weapons wearing out:

o I actually like finding that tattered or used piece of armor/clothing now and then, for some characters.  It gives them style.

o I would hope the wear-down code were such that it would take the average Bynner or Kuraci about 2-3 RL years before they'd have to replace their armor completely.  That is, something suitably non-annoying for playability.

But, um, don't we already have this implemented?  I've literally never had any clothing/armor of mine change, except maybe it loses the 'new' flag.  Never checked closely.

Anyone know how it works now?

Armor with "new" in the flag is actually damaged.

[Refugee]

Well said, Fuji.  

The argument about everyone having the best doesn't make sense, since of course very few get the best of anything.  Nobody's even saying that as part of why they disagree with the suggestion.  People are saying it doesn't sound fun to them.  And that if it sounds fun to you, go ahead and do it for yourself.

[nauta]

It's more about getting laid.

[Kyviantre]

Don't think I've had a character yet who's owned every item of clothing, armour or weaponry that they would like to own (sometimes things from all 3 categories!).  I've never had any of them say "You know what?  This outfit is so perfect that I do not need to add any more to it".  In fact, my usual response is "OMG,  this bracer I have comes in blue too, musthaveit!  300 sid?  I only have 250, saving up time!" This is closely followed about a RL month later by "My new blue bracers are awesome...hold on...that one is red with a gith skull embroidered on it...musthaveit!".

This is then followed by purchases of chests and trunks to store my collection (for the person who gets my apartment after me to sell to start their own collection ).

So yes...bleugh to grinding for wear and tear.  I have enough mindless grind already!

[Delirium]

I think I know where the desire for rotting skinned products comes from: the fact that people leave that shit all over the place in the outdoors.

Implementing the decay code for skinned objects seems problematic at best, but there are a few alternative solutions for that that which I feel would strike the right balance between resource scarcity and playability.

1) Anything left on the ground in a wilderness area will be "covered with sand" after a timer that starts the moment it is populated.  If it is in a container, indoors, or in a city flagged area, it remains. You can "forage artifact" to dig these up until game reboot in which case they disappear forever.

2) Merchants with unlimited inventory such as the hide buyer in Blackwing. Shit, shit prices: but they will buy EVERYTHING YOU HAVE. Everything. Scatter 1-2 of these per settlement. They essentially act as opportunistic pawn shops; they buy any item type (save perhaps components), pay absolute rock bottom, and resell at slightly lower than most merchants so that ICly, it makes sense: buyers know they can go to them for cheap supplies and can likely find what they need, and sellers know they can unload everything they have even if they might not make as much.

3) Give all merchants way more starting coin per reboot. It is ridiculous not to be able to sell more than 1-3 things.

4) Lower buy/sell prices across the board for merchants; except for the sale price of silk and high quality jewelry, keep that shit expensive. Currently it is too easy to make a lot of money off a few things and still have far too much left to sell. That is anachronistic.

5) For the love of Ginka, increase the rate at which VNPCs buy from merchants. Same reason as above.

If we want to be able to support a heavier concentration of players in civilizations we need to open up the NPC market. PC-PC trade, while preferable, is rarely as viable from a playability standpoint.

[Fujikoma]

Further, favoring PC to PC trading to much hampers playability, and enjoyability, for off-peakers. Expecting them to stay up really late, what with RL schedules and whatnot, to make a purchase from a PC who, also, because of RL scheduling might have difficulty meeting the other PC even halfway, is kind of double-plus unfun.

EDIT: Also, plus one for Delirium's idea.

[hopeandsorrow]

*All the Things*

Delirium for Prez?

Yeah all these things...

[Synthesis]

I think I know where the desire for rotting skinned products comes from: the fact that people leave that shit all over the place in the outdoors.

I don't know why people get so upset about other people leaving skinned items on the ground (from an OOC perspective, anyway).

I usually leave the stuff I don't have the skill or time to mess with, because I know other PCs -do- have the skills and/or time, but I also don't have the time or inclination to seek those PCs out.  If I steamroll a mess of chaltons just for shits and giggles and leave the hides, it's not because I'm lazy or whatever...it's because I know there are a fuckton of newb merchants and crafters who need to blast through about 100 hides apiece to master tanning.  So, as a bit of a courtesy to the rest of the playerbase, I leave that half-dozen hides sitting there, so they have an easier time with their own stupid grind.

[Refugee]

I think opening up the NPC markets so you can sell more is needed since we've consolidated the PBase.  There's a variety of issues involved with this that need to be addressed, but it needs to happen.  The items that new PCs sell are nearly impossible to sell.  Shops are either full or perpetually out of coin.  If the price of things needs to be lowered to balance for being able to move more, let's do that.  But it's important for retention to make starting out less frustrating.