Wouldn't it be awesome if this rotted on me... (decay idea thread)

[nauta]

With the decay stuff, it seems our scylla on the one hand are the casual players -- ameliorated by the fact that, when logged out, items on your person do not decay -- and our charybdis on the other is realism or simulation.

So, here are some things that I think probably should decay like food does (based on realism):

o untanned hides (all of them), but not shells, horns, bones, etc.

o organs (in general: entrails! sinews! intestines! stomachs!)

o undried leaves (give them a long shelf life, but still a shelf life) leaf hunting is fun!

o tablets (give them a long shelf life, but still a shelf life) but not vials (make vials more common!)

I'm not sure what the 'code' is actually like here, but here are some items that I think should wear out on 'use' (rather than naturally decay):

o clothing

o armor

o weapons

[Harmless]

I did like the idea of untanned hides rotting because tanning them preserves them (hopefully permanently for playability) and in real life hides with meat and fat attached definitely rot. any change that adds functionality to craft skills is a + for me.

I like nauta's idea for tablets spoiling but vials staying preserved, the idea of finding an ancient vial in the dust or buried in the sand is awesome, whereas tablets should appropriately decay. Maybe give them the equivalent of a RL year to do so, though, say 3 RL months of logged in time (that's a long ass time). Tablets are also pretty easily replaced.. well, some of them. And this would end up being a boost to poisoning.

Leaves are close to food and should maybe rot, but it'd be even better if we could dry leaves and preserve them.

Organs should definitely rot andI think some count as food already and thus already will.

I don't want clothes to "rot." Same for armor, and weapons.. most of the time those are very sturdy materials and have been treated with dyes or satchets of urine, etc, so that they won't.

[nauta]

Leaves are close to food and should maybe rot, but it'd be even better if we could dry leaves and preserve them.

With leaves, you can dry some but not all of them with the floristry skill.  I wish more guilds/subguilds had the floristry skill.

Maybe:

o merge floristry with brew (call it 'plant lore')
o add drying recipes for almost all leaves / flowers out there.

[Asmoth]

I like most of this except the pills/tablets part because drugs can still work after 40 years.

http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/expired-meds.shtml

[Refugee]

I'm against tablets decaying.  When you need one, you need it immediately and you don't have time to wander around looking for a green tablet like you could with just about anything else in game.

I suppose if they showed that they were near decay for quite awhile before they became ineffective, it would be acceptable.  But when you're just starting out and scraping for coin for water and food, having to continually replace your very necessary set of cures could be difficult.  Some of them are hard to find too.

I'm generally against the decaying thing, I know!  I think it just makes it much more difficult for new players.  I also played in Atonement, where there was just so much time put into maintenance of -everything- that it was a second grind in addition to the skill grind.  One more boring thing you have to do every day, every damn day, just so you can get to the playing part.

[Dresan]

I don't like using the world decay for armor and weapons. However, its the same idea. At some point they should need replacing, and it shouldn't be for another better weapon/armor, it should be because the weapon/gear has been used so much it cannot. Bones break, shell shatters, and leather tears after a while, if not that the thread/gunk that holds it together will break or give out eventually.

However, I understand a case can be made for armor/weapon to lasting forever, but this isn't an argument for realism. This is an idea to improve the economy and increase the value/demand of coins in the game.

Right now in the game you can calculate exactly how much a new character needs to buy an ideal set of armor/weapons for their guild/sub-guild. After they've reached that point, they need for coins goes down dramatically. How quickly people reach that point depends on their play style but its not very hard to manage. Sure there could be some money sinks such as food/water/apartment and stabling fees, but there are ways around these expenses. Unlike other expenses with armor/weapons a one time investment is all your need and you are set. This mean that after a certain point, risking your character for obsidian isn't really worth your time.  The only people that need coins are new character and there are safer and easier ways abiet boring to get it. You just need to put X amount of time, get your nice pieces of gear and never have to do it again.

There are so many pieces of armor and weapons in the game that are not high quality, but cheap and useful but never get used one because people can just save up for the best kurac/salarr sell instead. By making it so that you eventually need to replace armor and weapon we make it so gear works like apartments and food. Sure its great when you can afford the most expensive places or food, but there are much cheaper alternatives that might better suit your budget. You don't NEED to buy the very best gear the GMH have to offer, you can instead buy something cheaper which will last you just as long, and then if it gets ruined after a IC year or two, you will have enough coins to by another set. Perhaps you can buy some things a crafter makes, there is no reason their products should only be popular with new characters.

By increasing the demand of gear (weapons/armor) we also increase the need to go out and get those resources. Right now the only people that can make the very best gear are the merchant houses but this will create niches and more opportunity for independents and other crafters to offer valuable goods at more affordable prices. Again these items should only 'delay' when worn so encouraging people to wear normal clothing might be a nice boon to tailors and assassins trying to find ways through all that heavy armor.

Again it just comes down to the idea that there is so much gear in the game, and PCs don't always need to be wearing or using the very best gear. Some IC years you can afford it, some  IC years you just can't and you wear something not as good. Someone trying to pay for your services in a set of studded armors might be a damn good deal. And those bounties/reward might be worth doing because you will definitely need those coins in the future.

This game has needed more money sinks for a long time, and its getting them; apartments, armor repair, bank withdraws fees and now i feel food decay will help too. There is no reason why PC have to be decked out in the best gear outside custom gear, these things shouldn't be a one time purchase.  An increased desire for more coins will encourage more interaction and thus more plots. And it is a desire, not need, because you will always be able to afford adequate gear, apartment, and nutrition without much effort or work.

[valeria]

Clothing, armor, and weapons should not rot.  But they should suffer consistent wear and tear from being used.  Right now, it doesn't seem like they are consistently affected by use.

I don't like the idea of tablets rotting, but I do like the idea of unpreserved hides rotting.  Everything else I'm rather 'meh' about.

[Case]

I'm actually pro rot but just food and untanned hides and whatever.

Weapon damage would be neat, especially if it's tied to quality in the first place.

[Dresan]

This is my original armor/weapon idea from RAT(posting it here just so it doesn't get lost there):

After a year or two of using these items, they should be ruined, regardless of how much repair you've done to them. Armor timer should decay when worn, weapons when held, and mounts when used. However I don't want to see them disappear or crack, fucking over someone. Rather see them become ruined or useless, weapons becoming practically sparring weapons at best. And while people can argue as to why these things could last forever, lets think of the benefits that this would bring to the game. It doesn't take long for everyone and their mothers to go buy the same sets of perfect armor, and never have to change them until they die. There is alot of gear in the game that almost never gets used because people just go for the best right away. Armor weapons should get damaged more in combat, and shouldn't last forever even if repaired. I can see clanned members being supplied with good armor regularly and byn supplied with very basic armor. The best salarr and kurac have to offer should be a recurring cost. Every year or two at the most people should be paying for new sets of armor and weapons.

[BadSkeelz]

No more rot timing based on an arbitrary clock.


Weapons wearing down after use would be kind of neat.

[Dresan]

There are a lot of neat naturally occurring items coded in the world which can serve as weapons or even shields, however I've never seen one being used. And why would you? When chances are you've already bought a wickedly sharp blade of awesomeness from Salarr to last you for a lifetime.

I know there have been recent coded changes to armor repair and I have a lot of respect for the work put into it. However, I honestly would rather see gear slowly wear, not disappear or break but degrade to a point where it just needs replacing. Again hopefully increasing the demand for the stuff people make and increasing the desire to earn coins which in turn will generate more interaction and plots as money changes hands more.

For the merchant guild and thus GMH(I believe), it takes 1 RL month to make custom stuff, this is mostly by design since the time doesn't change even after a custom piece has been approved by staff. This is to show its rarity and outline the difficulty to make a unique piece. As for everything else they can sell, that has recently changed, GMH PC merchants should now have access to NPC vendors who will sell them the gear, unlike in the old days when staff had to load  stuff for them. So there is no more waiting for anyone and less work for staff.  

[Refugee]

No, we're saying, we don't want to grind and grind to maintain whatever we have.  I'd rather log in and go do whatever I want, whether it's hunting or politicking or drinking at the bar.  I don't want to -have- to do boring maintenance things, or -have- to go pick up salt or hack sid all the time to get someone else to do boring maintenance things. 

Washing the dishes, mowing the lawn, doing the laundry - that's what you're talking about.  Chores that never stop.  That you have to do to play.  If someone enjoys doing those repetitive things, if that's what their game is about, there's no reason they can't junk their stuff and do it.

I think the game has just about enough grinding aspects.

[Dresan]

Again the only shit you -have- to do to play and survive is afford food and water. That is not changing so if you've been doing chores to manage that, you might be doing something wrong. The type of money sink I am talking about, already exists in the game. You want to maintain that apartment? Then you better make some sid. I don't see that changing either.

Not sure why people think their character is entitled to the best armor and weapons, more so than the best apartments. The grind you talk about doesn't exist unless you make it exist for yourself. They current level of 'grind' as you guys like to put it, does not have to change, just the shit people are wearing might be more modest in the future.

Not to mention you can still join a clan who will feed and clothed you, plus give you a locker.  So there is always a way for people to completely opt out.


If people don't die regularly in the game with a healthy population there would almost be no demand for goods from PCs. There is already almost no value to coins for people who have lived for a certain number of days. You end up with a game where no one has any incentive to do shit unless your PC was threatened to do it.  

[hopeandsorrow]

I wouldn't mind weapons/armor wearing out a bit sometimes.  At a rate that makes it feel 'real' but not so fast it's annoying.

I think I've only every had one piece of armor wear out... ever.  That's of the course of many combat characters with varying degrees of getting fucked up.

Thought I find people who grind salt or sid mine to order 1 large value swords from Salaar for their grebber/hunter character funny.  I never get to gear focused or anything, I dunno doesn't fit with my idea on how to play the game.

Perhaps why a lot of my indies got harassed a lot, for not having the expensive sword of doom with the dinosaur armor colored as black as my soul.

Of course also I don't completely abuse the living shit out of salting or the red storm tailor quest.  If anything I use them to get sort of to base line goals to maintain my PC's desired life style.

I sort of picked through the thread, people really play this game like an MMO looking for all that sweet GMH gear?  Most of the stuff I find lying on the ground seems sufficient for my happiness, some times I wish there was more random, low tier, mid tier, weapons of various makes.

[nauta]

Re: clothing/armor/weapons wearing out:

o I actually like finding that tattered or used piece of armor/clothing now and then, for some characters.  It gives them style.

o I would hope the wear-down code were such that it would take the average Bynner or Kuraci about 2-3 RL years before they'd have to replace their armor completely.  That is, something suitably non-annoying for playability.

But, um, don't we already have this implemented?  I've literally never had any clothing/armor of mine change, except maybe it loses the 'new' flag.  Never checked closely.

Anyone know how it works now?

[Asmoth]

I don't think people should have to choose between nice armor or an apartment.

On the subject of economy it's a tricking fucking one though, do you make it so harsh that people die?  Do you make everything extremely expensive so only the truly exceptional can thrive? What effect will that have on those who don't know the tricks of the trade?

Is it possible to make a very profitable living on salting and mining alone? Yup, better than most clan jobs! But honestly it's better to have it glass half full than half empty because if you make it too hard to survive, then people will quit playing.

Making it balanced is a bitch, so better to lean to the side of too easy than too hard.

[Saellyn]

Re: clothing/armor/weapons wearing out:

o I actually like finding that tattered or used piece of armor/clothing now and then, for some characters.  It gives them style.

o I would hope the wear-down code were such that it would take the average Bynner or Kuraci about 2-3 RL years before they'd have to replace their armor completely.  That is, something suitably non-annoying for playability.

But, um, don't we already have this implemented?  I've literally never had any clothing/armor of mine change, except maybe it loses the 'new' flag.  Never checked closely.

Anyone know how it works now?

Armor with "new" in the flag is actually damaged.

[Refugee]

Well said, Fuji.  

The argument about everyone having the best doesn't make sense, since of course very few get the best of anything.  Nobody's even saying that as part of why they disagree with the suggestion.  People are saying it doesn't sound fun to them.  And that if it sounds fun to you, go ahead and do it for yourself.

[nauta]

It's more about getting laid.

[Kyviantre]

Don't think I've had a character yet who's owned every item of clothing, armour or weaponry that they would like to own (sometimes things from all 3 categories!).  I've never had any of them say "You know what?  This outfit is so perfect that I do not need to add any more to it".  In fact, my usual response is "OMG,  this bracer I have comes in blue too, musthaveit!  300 sid?  I only have 250, saving up time!" This is closely followed about a RL month later by "My new blue bracers are awesome...hold on...that one is red with a gith skull embroidered on it...musthaveit!".

This is then followed by purchases of chests and trunks to store my collection (for the person who gets my apartment after me to sell to start their own collection ).

So yes...bleugh to grinding for wear and tear.  I have enough mindless grind already!

[Delirium]

I think I know where the desire for rotting skinned products comes from: the fact that people leave that shit all over the place in the outdoors.

Implementing the decay code for skinned objects seems problematic at best, but there are a few alternative solutions for that that which I feel would strike the right balance between resource scarcity and playability.

1) Anything left on the ground in a wilderness area will be "covered with sand" after a timer that starts the moment it is populated.  If it is in a container, indoors, or in a city flagged area, it remains. You can "forage artifact" to dig these up until game reboot in which case they disappear forever.

2) Merchants with unlimited inventory such as the hide buyer in Blackwing. Shit, shit prices: but they will buy EVERYTHING YOU HAVE. Everything. Scatter 1-2 of these per settlement. They essentially act as opportunistic pawn shops; they buy any item type (save perhaps components), pay absolute rock bottom, and resell at slightly lower than most merchants so that ICly, it makes sense: buyers know they can go to them for cheap supplies and can likely find what they need, and sellers know they can unload everything they have even if they might not make as much.

3) Give all merchants way more starting coin per reboot. It is ridiculous not to be able to sell more than 1-3 things.

4) Lower buy/sell prices across the board for merchants; except for the sale price of silk and high quality jewelry, keep that shit expensive. Currently it is too easy to make a lot of money off a few things and still have far too much left to sell. That is anachronistic.

5) For the love of Ginka, increase the rate at which VNPCs buy from merchants. Same reason as above.

If we want to be able to support a heavier concentration of players in civilizations we need to open up the NPC market. PC-PC trade, while preferable, is rarely as viable from a playability standpoint.

[Fujikoma]

Further, favoring PC to PC trading to much hampers playability, and enjoyability, for off-peakers. Expecting them to stay up really late, what with RL schedules and whatnot, to make a purchase from a PC who, also, because of RL scheduling might have difficulty meeting the other PC even halfway, is kind of double-plus unfun.

EDIT: Also, plus one for Delirium's idea.

[hopeandsorrow]

*All the Things*

Delirium for Prez?

Yeah all these things...

[Synthesis]

I think I know where the desire for rotting skinned products comes from: the fact that people leave that shit all over the place in the outdoors.

I don't know why people get so upset about other people leaving skinned items on the ground (from an OOC perspective, anyway).

I usually leave the stuff I don't have the skill or time to mess with, because I know other PCs -do- have the skills and/or time, but I also don't have the time or inclination to seek those PCs out.  If I steamroll a mess of chaltons just for shits and giggles and leave the hides, it's not because I'm lazy or whatever...it's because I know there are a fuckton of newb merchants and crafters who need to blast through about 100 hides apiece to master tanning.  So, as a bit of a courtesy to the rest of the playerbase, I leave that half-dozen hides sitting there, so they have an easier time with their own stupid grind.

[Refugee]

I think opening up the NPC markets so you can sell more is needed since we've consolidated the PBase.  There's a variety of issues involved with this that need to be addressed, but it needs to happen.  The items that new PCs sell are nearly impossible to sell.  Shops are either full or perpetually out of coin.  If the price of things needs to be lowered to balance for being able to move more, let's do that.  But it's important for retention to make starting out less frustrating.

[nauta]

I think opening up the NPC markets so you can sell more is needed since we've consolidated the PBase.  There's a variety of issues involved with this that need to be addressed, but it needs to happen.  The items that new PCs sell are nearly impossible to sell.  Shops are either full or perpetually out of coin.  If the price of things needs to be lowered to balance for being able to move more, let's do that.  But it's important for retention to make starting out less frustrating.

I think the bolded bit is one of the most important bits, and it comes up quite a lot in such discussions (in addition to making things less onerous for casuals and off-peak players).  But, just focusing on new players, where do you see things going off the rails and entering into the zone of frustration?  I think this would be an interesting discussion if we can get it focussed enough, with the right sort of input.

Perhaps the best spot to start is to figure out what the target is here -- who might be frustrated with the current way the economy works.  So here's a stab at starting that part of the conversation.  Kinds of new players:

1. Run-of-the-mill Clan Newbie.  Such a newbie should be shuffled off into the Byn/Kurac (or perhaps Salarr/Kadius as hunters/crafters).  I'd imagine most newbies are (and should) fall into this category.

2. Independent Hunter Newbie

3. Independent Merchant Newbie

Are there others?

If that's the categories, then here's an analysis of each (grains of salt, and open to criticism):

With the run-of-the-mill clan newbie the economy will largely be something they wouldn't notice, at least not until they are no longer a newbie (in my view).  Perhaps I am wrong here.

I can totally see how being an independent hunter or merchant newbie would be hard (on a variety of levels -- learning the code to craft, the ingredients, learning the dangers of the wilds, the code to hunt, etc.)  But is it the economy one of the things that is hard for them?  If it is, how can we improve that aspect of things?  Do we want to?

Now, it's a different conversation if the economy makes things onerous for -everyone-, newbie and oldie alike, for instance if it is frustrating for new characters, not just newbies.

Just some thoughts.  Probably'll this'll derail my own thread.

[Delirium]

I think I know where the desire for rotting skinned products comes from: the fact that people leave that shit all over the place in the outdoors.

I don't know why people get so upset about other people leaving skinned items on the ground (from an OOC perspective, anyway).

I usually leave the stuff I don't have the skill or time to mess with, because I know other PCs -do- have the skills and/or time, but I also don't have the time or inclination to seek those PCs out.  If I steamroll a mess of chaltons just for shits and giggles and leave the hides, it's not because I'm lazy or whatever...it's because I know there are a fuckton of newb merchants and crafters who need to blast through about 100 hides apiece to master tanning.  So, as a bit of a courtesy to the rest of the playerbase, I leave that half-dozen hides sitting there, so they have an easier time with their own stupid grind.

While this makes dubious sense from a coded standpoint it makes absolutely zero sense from an IC standpoint.

The goal, in my eyes, should be to get coded and IC reality matching as closely as possible without hampering playability.

[Delirium]

Yes, shops are just as much a PIA to oldbies as they are to newbies.

Maybe even more so because it's even EASIER to have a bunch of shit you just can't sell in this resource-scarce desert wasteland, where water is fought over but nobody wants that scrab meat.

[Delirium]

The goal, in my eyes, should be to get coded and IC reality matching as closely as possible without hampering playability.

In reality, a human of average intelligence would only have to tan like 2 or 3 hides before they could do it without completely fucking it up.

Totally agree with that, but we do need a skill system. The fix there is to have craft failures give you a damaged item instead of making it vanish into thin air.

You botch the process and end up with a poorly-tanned chalton hide.

instead of,

"Yeah, sorry, had this entire salt worm hide but I managed to vaporize it with this magic scraper here."

[hopeandsorrow]

I can totally see how being an independent hunter or merchant newbie would be hard (on a variety of levels -- learning the code to craft, the ingredients, learning the dangers of the wilds, the code to hunt, etc.)  But is it the economy one of the things that is hard for them?  If it is, how can we improve that aspect of things?  Do we want to?

We should improve the economy.  One very successful indie hunter I had, I earned most of my coin if not close to 85% of it, salt grebbing. I pretend the profits, virtually was from hunting.  Felt silly, but actual hunting wasn't very profitable, hell if I was buying water counted in stable fee's, I was hunting at a loss.

Why?  Because selling the valuable, 'virtually' rare, and 'virtually" dangerous hides and chitin of animals was an exercise in futility.  Hardly a pc merchant around who needed them or wanted them, selling to NPC's was rare due to (don't want that/not enough coin/to much of said item).  In practice stuff isn't rare or valuable especially considering the PC market.

We need a merchant who just buys hides or anything, all bet at a low price, but still enough that you can actually hunt and make a living.  Other wise you just wait to game crash/restart and spam run to the market to beat all the other aholes doing the same thing with their apartment full of scrab chitin and raptor hides.

[Refugee]

(Some very good points about new players)

New guy logs in with new hunter type PC.  It can take several days to find someone who can recruit him into a clan.  Heck, it might take him a bit to figure out he -needs- to be in a clan.  He spends most his starting coin getting what he thinks he needs to be a good hunter.  He tries to kill something, assuming he survives---he probably won't get much from it with lousy skinning.  Kills something else!  He's used up his starter water and has learned that water is -expensive-.  If he gets some meat from his kill he tries to cook it and burns it, so he's starting to get hungry.  He doesn't know it's best to sell the meat and buy food.  Finally he gets a hide and has something to sell.  Takes it to the bazaar and is told they have enough of that.  He doesn't know why he gets that message.  He keeps coming back and always gets the same message.  Maybe he finds a leaf...for this he gets the message about having no coins.  He's got to lug around what he has to sell or junk it, because he can't afford anywhere to store it.  Keeps trying...hunts more, gets more... he gets encumbered.  Salting barely breaks even if you're not that bright.  If nobody helps him, he'll probably find another game to play, because it seems like it's an impossible situation.

This is exactly what happened to me on one of my PCs, so don't think it's exaggerated.  Except I had had a couple of PCs already and had played other RPIs, so I understood more.  But I never had trouble selling stuff in Tuluk.  Nak markets are harsh, and this was before the consolidation.  Maybe because there was less of a variety of things for new PCs to hunt so everyone's trying to sell the same things?  I don't know.

I do think it's easier to find clan leadership now than it was then, so that has to help.

[Asmoth]

The bitch about it is that once you get either basic or great gear and get good enough at salting to make profit and keep yourself in food and water, if you're hired by a clan, the pay is either non-existent or so laughable that you don't really need it.

I know that I haven't had a clan job that I needed for years.  It seems clan jobs are for more city bound characters that don't want to/are to chicken to go learn to greb.

But all that boils down to even if they increased the pay of every clan job, you would still get to the point where you had everything you needed and can easily afford apartment rent in a few days of work.  So then what do you spend the money on?

So the economy is tough, because just throwing money at it won't change anything. It would need a complete revamp in what you spend money on.

[Delirium]

I think the thing that bothers me the most about the current economy is that it creates a false type of scarcity on the wrong side of the spectrum.

There have been a lot of changes to the Luir's Outpost market that helps immensely with this, but we are still limited by the 5-item issue.

I realize that is a code issue that may be almost insurmountable, so having VNPC purchases triple or even quadruple would help a lot in that respect. Perhaps the script could be weighted toward items that have been sold by PCs, especially those that have reached the 5-item limit, just to keep things moving.

The other issue that needs to be tackled, and this is the tricky part, is figuring out a solid but simplistic guideline for how much things should cost. Based on difficulty, rarity, and quality.

Right now there are a lot of strange variances - rare, exotic hides being dirt cheap, common hides being expensive, pieces of stone selling for 30+ coins, extremely rare gems selling for 10.

None of the above solves the lack of crafting recipes for several common objects, but it would at least patch the holes in the bucket...

If some enterprising staffer wanted to be my hero forever, a crafting recipe call for common items would be amazing. I have so many ideas but when I made a merchant to start implementing them and realized how incredibly slow it would be to have to spend a literal year of my life just to implement 12 recipes for simple items... ehhhh I'd rather be playing something more fun.

[Merdin]

I don't like using the world decay for armor and weapons. However, its the same idea. At some point they should need replacing, and it shouldn't be for another better weapon/armor, it should be because the weapon/gear has been used so much it cannot. Bones break, shell shatters, and leather tears after a while, if not that the thread/gunk that holds it together will break or give out eventually.

However, I understand a case can be made for armor/weapon to lasting forever, but this isn't an argument for realism. This is an idea to improve the economy and increase the value/demand of coins in the game.

Right now in the game you can calculate exactly how much a new character needs to buy an ideal set of armor/weapons for their guild/sub-guild. After they've reached that point, they need for coins goes down dramatically. How quickly people reach that point depends on their play style but its not very hard to manage. Sure there could be some money sinks such as food/water/apartment and stabling fees, but there are ways around these expenses. Unlike other expenses with armor/weapons a one time investment is all your need and you are set. This mean that after a certain point, risking your character for obsidian isn't really worth your time.  The only people that need coins are new character and there are safer and easier ways abiet boring to get it. You just need to put X amount of time, get your nice pieces of gear and never have to do it again.

There are so many pieces of armor and weapons in the game that are not high quality, but cheap and useful but never get used one because people can just save up for the best kurac/salarr sell instead. By making it so that you eventually need to replace armor and weapon we make it so gear works like apartments and food. Sure its great when you can afford the most expensive places or food, but there are much cheaper alternatives that might better suit your budget. You don't NEED to buy the very best gear the GMH have to offer, you can instead buy something cheaper which will last you just as long, and then if it gets ruined after a IC year or two, you will have enough coins to by another set. Perhaps you can buy some things a crafter makes, there is no reason their products should only be popular with new characters.

By increasing the demand of gear (weapons/armor) we also increase the need to go out and get those resources. Right now the only people that can make the very best gear are the merchant houses but this will create niches and more opportunity for independents and other crafters to offer valuable goods at more affordable prices. Again these items should only 'delay' when worn so encouraging people to wear normal clothing might be a nice boon to tailors and assassins trying to find ways through all that heavy armor.

Again it just comes down to the idea that there is so much gear in the game, and PCs don't always need to be wearing or using the very best gear. Some IC years you can afford it, some  IC years you just can't and you wear something not as good. Someone trying to pay for your services in a set of studded armors might be a damn good deal. And those bounties/reward might be worth doing because you will definitely need those coins in the future.

This game has needed more money sinks for a long time, and its getting them; apartments, armor repair, bank withdraws fees and now i feel food decay will help too. There is no reason why PC have to be decked out in the best gear outside custom gear, these things shouldn't be a one time purchase.  An increased desire for more coins will encourage more interaction and thus more plots. And it is a desire, not need, because you will always be able to afford adequate gear, apartment, and nutrition without much effort or work.

I second this.

[Bast]

Flowers I hate the current parading of certain flowers lime they wouldn't wilt in a week. There is a floristry skill for a reason. The one exception should maybe be the
Tea flowers or their craft item should be changed to a dried version of the tea plant

[nauta]

On weapons (and perhaps armor).

I don't know the code here.  Does anyone know if weapons and armor actually degrade on use (i.e. successful hits given or received)?  (I -have- seen a half-giant literally shatter a dwarf's leggings with an especially amazing hit in-game, but (i) that's not degrading that was shattering -- he literally knocked the pants off the dwarf and (ii) that probably is a rare (and cool) quirk of the code and not a general thing.)

If not, here's an idea for implementing it (at least with weapons).  My model here are arrows, because I love arrows.

1. Allow the Warrior Guild (or whatever it is called) access to very primitive access to the weapon making skill (much as Ranger has access to fletchery).

2. Make a lot of the bones that are lying around craftable into primitive bone weapons (if they aren't already).

3. Then have weapons degrade on successful hits, with flags: used, barely held-together, etc.  The flags are important so you can judge if you should risk going into battle with that barely held-together bone sword or pivot to making a new bone sword (or buying one).

Two potential objections.

1. This would hurt the merchants.  Reply: a lot of merchants are more interested in dealing with the upper class anyway, and in any case, just as with arrows, you can opt to purchase rather than make.

2. We have the subguild, use that.  I just think it'd be fun to play a Warrior and run around in the desert with a loincloth making up my own bone sword now and then -- bear in mind the quality of these swords would be shit compared to the ones that a merchant would make.

[Synthesis]

Giving everyone access to sword/spear/knife/club/axe/whatever-making would be a terrible idea, unless a whole lot of work went into making damn sure you couldn't overcome the value and failure problems of a low skill-cap by production or attempt volume.

[nauta]

Giving everyone access to sword/spear/knife/club/axe/whatever-making would be a terrible idea, unless a whole lot of work went into making damn sure you couldn't overcome the value and failure problems of a low skill-cap by production or attempt volume.

Yep, good point.  I had imagined the weapons that the Warrior class had access to would be set to a value of 1 sid or 2 -- or even unsellable tout court -- and would be (in terms of wearing out) on the low scale.

If you want to make money off weapons, pick the Subguild.  But if you just want to run around and grab a bone, whack at it with a stone, and have a functional (if shitty and value-less and worn down weapon): then you can do that!

[BadSkeelz]

If the weapon is worthless, no one is going to use one. If the weapons are good, then warriors won't need to talk to Salarr.

I've wondered if it would be fun to have weapons wear down over use, necessitating periodic maintenance. Sharpening, reaffixing of blades, that sort of things. This would be a Guild skill of warriors, and available to certain subguilds like Mercenary and Rebel/Outlaw, which are described as being able to take care of their own gear.

[John]

I don't know why people get so upset about other people leaving skinned items on the ground (from an OOC perspective, anyway).

The game is ostensibly about a harsh world where people are struggling to survive. Going out and finding a shit-ton of 'sid simply lying around is jarring to that.

If I steamroll a mess of chaltons just for shits and giggles

This is something i personally have an issue with and find jarring when I find people doing it. Leaving all that shit behind only makes it more obvious.

leave the hides, it's not because I'm lazy or whatever...it's because I know there are a fuckton of newb merchants and crafters who need to blast through about 100 hides apiece to master tanning.

Fuck those newb merchants and crafters. Merchants and crafters have it too easy in making 'sid anyway. If they want to be masters let them actually interact with other people (or do a shitload of boring foraging to buy the raw goods they need from NPCs) and organise for those chalton to be hunted down.

So, as a bit of a courtesy to the rest of the playerbase, I leave that half-dozen hides sitting there, so they have an easier time with their own stupid grind.

I'm just wondering if this entire post was trolling/sarcastic. On the off chance it's not, what the hell? Since when did the playerbase start catering to people grinding? Fuck those people. Make them work at it themselves. There aint no free lunches in zalanthas. Right? Because that's people are doing when they're leaving all those hides around. They're handing out free lunches. When did that become acceptable?

it's important for retention to make starting out less frustrating.

Can anyone who cares to earn enough 'sid to not starve or die of dehydration? Yup. Can anyone who is inclined get accomodation without having to sit around and pointlessly grind? Yup. Join a House.

Joining clans is great for (non-offpeakers) as it builds in a group of people to interact with (making the game less frustrating) and can get you involved in plots. If you're finding the early game of a character boring, go join a clan. Having enough people in a clan will cause stuff to happen even if no-one is putting any effort into it.

He's got to lug around what he has to sell or junk it, because he can't afford anywhere to store it.

Or he could stash it somewhere "safe" until such time as he can sell it. Sure it might get stolen (reboot or other PCs) but such is life.

Of course, feel free to ignore me. I've never had a PC who didn't have to worry about getting his next meal or rent money. So clearly my experiences aren't the norm for many here

[Synthesis]

I keep my dickness IC.  Anyway, chalton bits aren't free 'sid lying around, because the market is always at least 80% saturated within hours of a reboot.  So calm the fuck down, basically.

Incidentally, my phone tried to predict "dickness" as "dick nessalin@armageddon.org."

[Synthesis]

On-topic:

So far, the only effect has been to make it harder to hoard the finest meats and cheeses in order to sell them on reboots.  I can still do it, but I have to time it and keep the shit in my bag when I log out.

#whatever

[Miradus]

I have butchered a lot of game in the field in real life, and there is plenty of crap left over that I don't lug back to camp.

The problem of leftover items on the ground isn't poor roleplay. There are in-game vultures and other scavengers. Throw a script on them to gobble up meat and bones they find on the ground. The script already exists, I think. I've seen tembo eat corpses.

[Armaddict]

Some vultures already do this as well.  There are in game scavengers, but the code needs to spread to all of them, I think.

Edit:  They only do it to corpse objects.  So it might be helpful for guts, entrails, so on and so forth, to be flagged with a 'scavenger target' flag.

[BadSkeelz]

Some vultures already do this as well.  There are in game scavengers, but the code needs to spread to all of them, I think.

Edit:  They only do it to corpse objects.  So it might be helpful for guts, entrails, so on and so forth, to be flagged with a 'scavenger target' flag.

People also tend to kill them all the time.

[Armaddict]

Some zones seem to have it built in for scavengers to gravitate towards bodies, where around Allanak this is not the case.  Maybe that would help it.

I say 'seem to' on purpose, I've never seen it actually happening.

[Asmoth]

Some vultures already do this as well.  There are in game scavengers, but the code needs to spread to all of them, I think.

Edit:  They only do it to corpse objects.  So it might be helpful for guts, entrails, so on and so forth, to be flagged with a 'scavenger target' flag.

People also tend to kill them all the time.

Newbie independent combat trainers.

[Miradus]

People may kill them all the time, but I still see them. They aren't extinct.

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

[John]

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.

[RogueGunslinger]

Well, there could be a few different motivations, but none of them are very probable.

What if they're collecting blood for a defilers shrine?

[Malken]

Well, there could be a few different motivations, but none of them are very probable.

What if they're collecting blood for a defilers shrine?

Or skulls for the skull throne!

[nauta]

I haven't played in the south for a while now, but I always wanted to roll up a chalton cowgirl.  She'd put bolts into chalton bandits, and go around branding the chalton as part of her herd.

[Synthesis]

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.

https://youtu.be/wFgAE5SgFnw

[JackGibbons]

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.

That is a hard question to answer, but that's not usually what I see happening. Usually they are collecting just one of the materials that they can actually use up [craft, sell, eat, etc]. The hide. The bones [just the long ones, maybe], etc. At least it's been my experience that the parts of value are stripped, where value is relative to what crafts one needs parts for. I don't think I've ever see a fully cut animal with all its original parts lying out butchered but uncollected.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

There should be people in the city willing to buy those parts from you but there generally aren't. That's why people leave them out there.

[Asmoth]

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.

There isn't, that's just twinkdom.

Only thing I could see doing that on, and even it's a stretch is scorpions.

[Synthesis]

Frankly though, the piles of dismembered chalton and gortok in the world don't bother me. It's not immersion breaking. The wilderness is full of carrion. If it bothers you that a player left it, then roleplay that some predator scattered refuse around after a kill and all those parts have been gnawed.

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.

There isn't, that's just twinkdom.

Only thing I could see doing that on, and even it's a stretch is scorpions.

The scorpions are extremely valuable, homie.

Extremely.

[Miradus]

What is the IC motivation for going into the desert, killing a mess of Chatlon (skinning them?) and then taking nothing? Not even the hunks of meat.
[/quote]

People have shot my goats from the highway. People hunt doves by the score and don't even pick up the dead birds. People kill deer just for the trophies or "donate" the meat to the local food banks.

Killing for sport is a thing in the real world. I imagine no less so in Zalanthas.

[Malken]

Don't you dare mess with my level 0-12 hrs played mobs!

[Synthesis]

Don't you dare mess with my level 0-12 hrs played mobs!

Chalton aren't good for anything except getting backstab to journeyman, dude.

They're not even on the skill-up critter-progression tree, because if you are SO BAD at fighting that you can generate failures on chalton, then the second a scrab runs across you, you are fucking dead.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Zalanthas is a world of scarce resources where food and water are infinitely valuable to 98% of the population. Even the page on how to rp an indie hunter reflects that somewhat. I'm not sure anyone would do the hunting for sport thing except nobles possibly.

[Rokal]

Zalanthas is a world of scarce resources where food and water are infinitely valuable to 98% of the population. Even the page on how to rp an indie hunter reflects that somewhat. I'm not sure anyone would do the hunting for sport thing except nobles possibly.

Very much so this, even then, hunting for sport would, realistically, get you the ire of other hunters who hunt to feed their families, those extra 3 chalton you kill might have been the dinner for another couple families.

[Miradus]

Zalanthas is a world of scarce resources where food and water are infinitely valuable to 98% of the population. Even the page on how to rp an indie hunter reflects that somewhat. I'm not sure anyone would do the hunting for sport thing except nobles possibly.

Documentation = de jure

Piles of free food and goods left rotting in the sun = de facto

That "scarce resource" valuable thing just doesn't really seem to hold sway outside the walls. Within the walls you could probably sell templar urine to someone thirsty enough, but outside the walls there's water, food, and extremely valuable things just laying on the ground.

So where's the "lawful good" character who goes out and gathers up fresh chalton meat and brings into the hungry orphans in the rinth (the ones Asmoth hasn't backstabbed yet)?

Where's the capitalist who brings in the meat and sells fresh cooked steaks to the patrons in the Gaj? Oh wait. Most everyone would rather eat their cheap food and save their sid than pay a little more to another player to support that roleplay. Or they'd rather go back to their clan compound and snag that free food.

If it's so valuable and scarce, then why has nobody made it part of their roleplay to go around and collect it? Probably because you can't sell it to the NPC merchants because they're all either broke or have too many from the 500 other hunters who beat you there.

I have always roleplayed that the scarcity exists where the corrupt and evil regime wants to use that scarcity to oppress their subjects. Or when I'm playing a tribal, that the scarcity is the fault of stupid wall dwellers and knee benders who don't know enough to dig up a root sac when they're thirsty or how to cook a fresh steak.

[BadSkeelz]

The de-facto game world often does not match up to the de-jure documented setting. Zalanthas is supposed to be a huge, blazing desertscape rife with dangerous wild life and where water is worth more than its weight in sids. In the actual game, we can ride from one side to the other in less than a day, accosted by nothing worse than a badger and not even needing a drink of water.

Documentation like the "Hunter's Roleplay" and "Thief's Bible" page exist to remind players that the game world is often less than what we wish it was as a setting. That sometimes we need to play to less than what we are code-capable of doing in order to maintain a more authentic and immersive setting.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Hunter%20Roleplay

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Thief's%20Bible

[Asmoth]

For the record, I don't think I've played more than five rinthers, and I don't think any of them have survived past the npc muggings for wearing something that doesn't smell like urine.

[Miradus]

So the problem with the chalton thing is that people aren't following the documentation? (Cue Claude Rains from Casablanca)

Easy fix. Lord Emperor MagicPants the High declares that henceforth all chalton belong to him and hires 10 new game wardens to patrol the wilderness and check chalton hunting permits.

Best plot EVAH!

[Asmoth]

So the problem with the chalton thing is that people aren't following the documentation? (Cue Claude Rains from Casablanca)

Easy fix. Lord Emperor MagicPants the High declares that henceforth all chalton belong to him and hires 10 new game wardens to patrol the wilderness and check chalton hunting permits.

Best plot EVAH!

They did something like this in Tuluk, WAYYYYY back in the day with the Sun Legion.

I actually had to get a trade license, they inspected my bags when they saw me.  And all that shit.  It was like real life and it was awesome.  Except since this is Arm, after I paid them off a few hundred coins over a few weeks the interaction was.

Sun legion guy rides in.
Sun legion guy is followed by four other Sun Legion guys.

Head Sun legion guy turns to the rest, "Oh that's just X, he's good, let's go."
Head Sun legion guy nods at X and rides away.

[John]

Piles of free food and goods left rotting in the sun = de facto

Only if we, as a community, see it as acceptable and encourage others to create these conditions.

outside the walls there's water, food, and extremely valuable things just laying on the ground.

If you're "in the know" and know where the food and water spawn points are, you can totally survive in the desert with little to no chance of starving and dehydrating. If your characters don't automatically know where these are or don't happen to "accidentally" stumble across them every single time you roll up a new one, they're much rarer (unless you're a ranger).

So where's the "lawful good" character who goes out and gathers up fresh chalton meat and brings into the hungry orphans in the rinth (the ones Asmoth hasn't backstabbed yet)?

Hopefully dead at the hands of a 'rinthi child gang.

Where's the capitalist who brings in the meat and sells fresh cooked steaks to the patrons in the Gaj? Oh wait. Most everyone would rather eat their cheap food and save their sid than pay a little more to another player to support that roleplay. Or they'd rather go back to their clan compound and snag that free food.

Here's hoping rotting food code helps fix this. After all, only chumps want to play in clans because being an indie is where the action is.

If it's so valuable and scarce, then why has nobody made it part of their roleplay to go around and collect it?

Have done that, will do that again. If I know (or think) I won't be able to sell it and I have no use for it, I put it in a "safe place" and note where I've put it so I can go back and get it once I can sell it. No need to weigh down my encumbrance. Some of the shit I've hidden away for later retrieval is quite possibly still there and just waiting for someone to come along and find it (they'll be quite happy about some of the things they find, and then seriously question what I was doing with the other stuff I hid). Although again I find it silly to create a character with the explicit purpose of going out and getting all the free food and skins people have left behind for my newbie ass to grind on.

They did something like this in Tuluk, WAYYYYY back in the day with the Sun Legion.

I actually had to get a trade license, they inspected my bags when they saw me.  And all that shit.  It was like real life and it was awesome.  Except since this is Arm, after I paid them off a few hundred coins over a few weeks the interaction was.

Sun legion guy rides in.
Sun legion guy is followed by four other Sun Legion guys.

Head Sun legion guy turns to the rest, "Oh that's just X, he's good, let's go."
Head Sun legion guy nods at X and rides away.

That is pretty awesome.

[JackGibbons]

So the problem with the chalton thing is that people aren't following the documentation? (Cue Claude Rains from Casablanca)

Easy fix. Lord Emperor MagicPants the High declares that henceforth all chalton belong to him and hires 10 new game wardens to patrol the wilderness and check chalton hunting permits.

Best plot EVAH!

No, it's more like the limitations of NPC shops doesn't follow the documentation. If food were that scarce, you'd be able to sell every flank you can find to someone. But since there is no demand for those goods in the walls codedly, you leave them behind. I'm not saying this needs to change, since otherwise we'd just have even more hunting sid grinding, but you can't blame people for not carrying stuff that they can't get rid of. Sure you could lug it to the stables, then junk flank (selling it to a passerby for a handjob [or any other explanation that doesn't result in sids in your palm]), but is that really the requirement?

[John]

But since there is no demand for those goods in the walls codedly, you leave them behind.

My beef isn't with people who go out hunting for specific things, kill those creatures and then take the things they were after. It's those other times when you see what' left and know they didn't take anything at all that I find jarring.

[JackGibbons]

But since there is no demand for those goods in the walls codedly, you leave them behind.

My beef isn't with people who go out hunting for specific things, kill those creatures and then take the things they were after. It's those other times when you see what' left and know they didn't take anything at all that I find jarring.

Okay, I can definitely agree with that one. It usually seems to me that something is missing, though, but you can never quite tell if it's just because they didn't get a perfect success on their skin. I guess people could be grinding combat and skinning without collecting anything. That would be pretty crappy of them.

[Miradus]

(selling it to a passerby for a handjob [or any other explanation that doesn't result in sids in your palm]), but is that really the requirement?

So ... this NPC handjob ... do I wish up for that or what?

[Asmoth]

(selling it to a passerby for a handjob [or any other explanation that doesn't result in sids in your palm]), but is that really the requirement?

So ... this NPC handjob ... do I wish up for that or what?

Please do and post the log.

[Malken]

Water should rot.

[JackGibbons]

(selling it to a passerby for a handjob [or any other explanation that doesn't result in sids in your palm]), but is that really the requirement?

So ... this NPC handjob ... do I wish up for that or what?

Elaborate junking ftw.

A semi-private but not guaranteed private room that happened to be absent of PCs but might have VNPCs:

(Your desc) steps into the chamber, tapping a couple making out on the shoulder and leaning down and speaking into the man's ear.
Handing the spice packet over to the man in his palm, you discard your pinch of black, viscous spice.
Slipping it into the hand of the embarrassed looking breedy female who ducks out with her paramour, leaving the room empty, you discard your shiny pinch of red spice.
Blinking curiously, [the PC you entered with] says, in XXXXX-accented sirihish:
    "Well, that'll get ya the room."

/derail

[RogueGunslinger]

I haven't played in the south for a while now, but I always wanted to roll up a chalton cowgirl.  She'd put bolts into chalton bandits, and go around branding the chalton as part of her herd.

Chaltongirl? Hrmmm. The Erdlu whisperer?

How about a character who goes around helping nobles or sergeants "break" their wily mount in, so they don't buck them. Gives riding lessons, and offers to tame far-flung creatures. Malick the mount man.

[Synthesis]

But since there is no demand for those goods in the walls codedly, you leave them behind.

My beef isn't with people who go out hunting for specific things, kill those creatures and then take the things they were after. It's those other times when you see what' left and know they didn't take anything at all that I find jarring.

Okay, I can definitely agree with that one. It usually seems to me that something is missing, though, but you can never quite tell if it's just because they didn't get a perfect success on their skin. I guess people could be grinding combat and skinning without collecting anything. That would be pretty crappy of them.

Nobody except clueless noobs are "grinding combat" on chalton, as I've said.  It's not even possible.

[Miradus]

I don't know how tough chalton are in comparison. I haven't spent much time in the south. I guess it would be like trying to skill up on shik and skeet.

On a ranger at about 2 days played, gortoks mostly ceased to be a challenge and assumably since I'm not missing them much, I'm not learning from the fight.

I do run into the occasional uber-gortok (alpha gortok?) that will take me well below my regeneration point, but it's pretty rare and unpredictable.

The skill progression, while still insanely incomprehensible to me, seems to occur pretty fast. There seems to be creatures that you're never going to be able to handle solo in melee and then everything else. And you reach that ability to handle everything else within a relatively short period of time.

[Delirium]

"Never" is such a strong word...

I mean, yes, there are some creatures that are simply not meant to be fought solo. But you might be pleasantly surprised how good you can get.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, if you just started playing, there's literally no way you've reached the pinnacle of what's possible.

Basically, what you can solo in melee is based on how much damage it can do in single shots, because no matter how awesome your warrior is, his defense is not impenetrable.  If you're fighting things that can nail you for 60+hp on a lucky shot to the head or neck...eventually one of those things is going to get lucky back-to-back head and neck shots that will kill you, no matter how awesome you are.