The Way: Pitfalls and Prospects

[nauta]

Since RAT is starting to circle around the perennial discussion of the Unseen Way and its relation to MCB, perhaps we can move that discussion here?

On the one hand, we want reliable Way communication as an OOC convenience (for newbies, for leaders, for coordinating RPTs, etc.). 

On the other hand, too reliable Way communication does seem to place a lot of plots and whatnot beyond the veil of mundane eavesdroppers.  (Some might argue this does damage to MCB; others might argue this actually helps MCB; opinions differ.)

Here's my two thoughts on it (and an idea from RAT I liked):

1. No Waying In the Same Room. What if the Way didn't work when you were in the same room with the other person?  Pros: It would open up the potential for eavesdropping.  Cons: It would require a code change.

2. We're All Drunk Most Of The Time.  The drunk code interferes with the Way, and it's pretty funny when it happens.  It's not 100% blockage, but maybe, I don't know, let's say 50% blockage or something.  What if this were the case -all- the time, maybe at 25%.  That is, a quarter of the time the message doesn't go through, but you get the whole 'image wavers in your mind' message.

3. Character Limits.  Place a character limit on each message - maybe the same limit as (arggggg) change ldesc or something.

[BadSkeelz]

Personally I think how the Way works currently for mundanes is for the most part fine.*

I think the problem of the Way being too safe is a problem stemming from psionicist skill progression. But that's a difficult topic to discuss as A) I've never played a psion, so my opinion is conjecture based on accumulated reports and observations and B) you can't really discuss it without discussing some high level skill code.


If you really really really want to make it a pain in the ass for mundanes to use the way, I would up the stun cost so that doing anything else simultaneously is difficult at best. Or perhaps introduce an echo of someone's eyes glazing briefly over, so that everyone else in the room knows you're up to some shit.

*Also, as long as we're on the topic, let's make it so the Way doesn't work if you don't share a common language with the person on the other end of the connection.

[hopeandsorrow]

3. Character Limits.  Place a character limit on each message - maybe the same limit as (arggggg) change ldesc or something.

This on top of Badskeelz idea to up the stun cost.

Enough to tell some one "Go a league west re-re." or "Come to the Compound." or "Can we meet at the place?"

Not enough to 'easily' rely complex plans on how your going to murder the shit of that merchant house to your buddy half-way across the known.

[Fujikoma]

I think the onus is on the player not to be a fucking douchebag, sadly, we've demonstrated time and again that people want to win, and my PCs (while I was a newb) have been bulldied into providing descs for the militia, and that one falls on the militia to perhaps aknowlege that perhaps the character in question does not remember anything, on account of being bludgeoned, one-hit, into unconsciousness...

[whitt]

I'd vote:

4.  Add an after delay.  Similar to the delay after contact.

This makes it harder to way all the time like nothing else is happening.

[BadSkeelz]

Since RAT is starting to circle around the perennial discussion of the Unseen Way and its relation to MCB, perhaps we can move that discussion here?

On the one hand, we want reliable Way communication as an OOC convenience (for newbies, for leaders, for coordinating RPTs, etc.). 

On the other hand, too reliable Way communication does seem to place a lot of plots and whatnot beyond the veil of mundane eavesdroppers.  (Some might argue this does damage to MCB; others might argue this actually helps MCB; opinions differ.)

In the "why to keep the Way as it is" column, I find it to really facilitate communication and relationships with PCs that we just can't meet face to face, whether due to geographical or scheduling constraints. It isn't solely OOC convenience, there is very real IC convenience as well.

I also think if you find the Way is stymieing your MCB right now, you're probably going to be just as stymied if we make any changes. The "problem" is more often than not with the player and their playstyle and not the code.

[BadSkeelz]

All that said, I dislike using the way because it lacks the nuance and flavor of face-to-face meetings.

Do people seriously sit in the same room and way each other? That's incredibly retarded and dull, and I'm glad to say I haven't seen it in my time here. Much more often I've experienced the opposite: enter a room, close door, barrier mind, commence with the talk.

Players who want less way/more face to face could also set an example for others in-game. Try and discourage the use of the Way in your dealings. If you're a sponsored role and someone wants to talk to you over the way, try saying "What are you, fucking stupid? There's mindworms out there! Come to my office and we'll talk."

#WayBoycott2016

[Armaddict]

Do people seriously sit in the same room and way each other?

...yes.  This is common.  I've been in the position of trying to find things out, observing a pattern of movement with two people, going to their private meeting place ahead of time, where they showed up, sat down in a private place across from each other, then used the Way.  Still emoting to acknowledge things and interact, but all dialogue through the Way.  Not just once, but multiple times.

This is why I say it's irritating, because you can go through the act of actually following people, planning, learning things about them...and have it not matter one bit.  It's like promoting burglars to stake out their buildings, to study the behavior patterns of the people who live there, to research what things are possibly available inside...all of that -good- stuff we want from our criminals.  But then making it so that anyone with pick lock doesn't have forage, and everyone is allowed to bury everything in their apartment.

It doesn't make sense to bury everything.  But they'll do it because it's safer.

Yes, shitty analogy, but that's what it often felt like when I was trying to watch people for other people.

[BadSkeelz]

Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

[whitt]

Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

And... new sig.

[Case]

Let people use mental forms over sdesc! Bye bye dodgy descriptoring

[nauta]

Do people seriously sit in the same room and way each other?

...yes.  This is common.  I've been in the position of trying to find things out, observing a pattern of movement with two people, going to their private meeting place ahead of time, where they showed up, sat down in a private place across from each other, then used the Way.  Still emoting to acknowledge things and interact, but all dialogue through the Way.  Not just once, but multiple times.

My favorite Guild boss was one who didn't bother with the Way while at the Westend bar, or whispering, or anything: He just didn't give a fuck.  It was brilliant.

It's a bit of, as hopeandsorrow put it, playing against your character, and I can totally understand why people wouldn't want to do it.

[hopeandsorrow]

Do people seriously sit in the same room and way each other?

...yes.  This is common.  I've been in the position of trying to find things out, observing a pattern of movement with two people, going to their private meeting place ahead of time, where they showed up, sat down in a private place across from each other, then used the Way.  Still emoting to acknowledge things and interact, but all dialogue through the Way.  Not just once, but multiple times.

This is why I say it's irritating, because you can go through the act of actually following people, planning, learning things about them...and have it not matter one bit.  It's like promoting burglars to stake out their buildings, to study the behavior patterns of the people who live there, to research what things are possibly available inside...all of that -good- stuff we want from our criminals.  But then making it so that anyone with pick lock doesn't have forage, and everyone is allowed to bury everything in their apartment.

It doesn't make sense to bury everything.  But they'll do it because it's safer.

Yes, shitty analogy, but that's what it often felt like when I was trying to watch people for other people.

I guess I sort get why it isn't considered abuse for them to do that...

But jesus h. christ on a stick that is cheesy.  Like really cheesy and I use to play Rust the game of glitches and cheesing your way to victory.

Agreed with Skeelz, kill'em with fire.

[Case]

Do people seriously sit in the same room and way each other?

...yes.  This is common.  I've been in the position of trying to find things out, observing a pattern of movement with two people, going to their private meeting place ahead of time, where they showed up, sat down in a private place across from each other, then used the Way.  Still emoting to acknowledge things and interact, but all dialogue through the Way.  Not just once, but multiple times.

Man that is some boring stuff. It might be possible to make the way less conversational by Way penalty, possibly by increasing message cost by each additional message or something, but man. That sucks.

[BadSkeelz]

Migrating over a discussion from the RAT:

Let's consider a situation. You're in a room with a buddy, and a dude you want to kill. You want to signal your buddy to subdue him so he can't escape. (Nevermind that he could call for help, I'm not dealing with that at the moment.)

How do you signal your buddy with the least possibility of him escaping? Let's examine this through a game theory scenario.

A.) You whisper a few words at him as you reach over the counter for your pack of smokes.
No. Because the whisper is visible and he may be able to listen through it.

B.) You use a predetermined signal that your buddy is watching for. He's literally waiting for you to hemote giving him a thumbs up.
No because there is still a chance it may signal your victim if he is watchful or particularly observant.

C.) You use the predetermined codephrase "bubbles" to signal your buddy.
No. Because your buddy may not catch on immediatly, or your victim might catch on. And why would you bother setting that up when you can just use the way?

D.) You use the way to tell your buddy to grab him.
Seriously. There is no other option. It's a broken mechanic. Except unless he's a psion. And then you're already fucked.

It's the logical choice from a metagame, play-to-wind standpoint.

I do not think it's the logical choice from an immersive, scene-crafting standpoint.

The worst, most boring interrogations in the AoD were always the ones where the Templar and the perp engaged in a "battle of the Way" with each other or other people, or at least seemed like they did. Except for that one where I was half-asleep at 3am after hours of the Waying nonsense, causing me to misinterpret a threat and kill the guy we were interrogating in two hits.

[Jingo]

Let's consider a situation. You're in a room with a buddy, and a dude you want to kill. You want to signal your buddy to subdue him so he can't escape. (Nevermind that he could call for help, I'm not dealing with that at the moment.)

How do you signal your buddy with the least possibility of him escaping? Let's examine this through a game theory scenario.

A.) You whisper a few words at him as you reach over the counter for your pack of smokes.
No. Because the whisper is visible and he may be able to listen through it.

B.) You use a predetermined signal that your buddy is watching for. He's literally waiting for you to hemote giving him a thumbs up.
No because there is still a chance it may signal your victim if he is watchful or particularly observant.

C.) You use the predetermined codephrase "bubbles" to signal your buddy.
No. Because your buddy may not catch on immediatly, or your victim might catch on. And why would you bother setting that up when you can just use the way?

D.) You use the way to tell your buddy to grab him.
Seriously. There is no other option. It's a broken mechanic. Except unless he's a psion. And then you're already fucked.

Goddammit Badskeelz.

[RogueGunslinger]

Play-to-wind is what I will forever call rolling up a whiran.

[Jingo]

It's the logical choice from a metagame, play-to-wind standpoint.

I do not think it's the logical choice from an immersive, scene-crafting standpoint.

You can't really accept one over the other. Sometimes players just want to be lame and win ez.

[BadSkeelz]

Play-to-wind is what I will forever call rolling up a whiran.

Whoops.

It's the logical choice from a metagame, play-to-wind standpoint.

I do not think it's the logical choice from an immersive, scene-crafting standpoint.

You can't really accept one over the other. Sometimes players just want to be lame and win ez.

Yes you can. You do it by killing anyone who seems to be playing to the most metagamey standard. The more risks and exposure you're willing to take with your PC, the less inclined I am to kill you.

[hopeandsorrow]

It's the logical choice from a metagame, play-to-wind standpoint.
Sometimes players just want to be lame and wind ez breezy.

FIFY

[Jingo]

Play-to-wind is what I will forever call rolling up a whiran.

Whoops.

It's the logical choice from a metagame, play-to-wind standpoint.

I do not think it's the logical choice from an immersive, scene-crafting standpoint.

You can't really accept one over the other. Sometimes players just want to be lame and win ez.

Yes you can. You do it by killing anyone who seems to be playing to the most metagamey standard. The more risks and exposure you're willing to take with your PC, the less inclined I am to kill you.

You can't always just kill your problems away man.

[Eilwen]

I'm flummoxed! Are the spies really having this hard a time?

[BadSkeelz]

You can't always just kill your problems away man.

I'd prefer to RP with them but they have to meet me half way  

I'm flummoxed! Are the spies really having this hard a time?

The classic Arm spy is some aide spilling all the beans about their boss to someone over the Way for god knows what reason.

Note to future sponsored-role self: kill aide.

[nauta]

I'm flummoxed! Are the spies really having this hard a time?

I'm new(ish), but having played a few spies / sneaks, I can agree with Armaddict that a lot of secret stuff happens over the Way, and its more the rule than the exception to the rule.  But ymmv.

On the one hand, we do have the known fact that there are mindreaders out there -- I don't think that's too IC to give away, it's in a helpfile -- so ideally people should be barriered up and discussing outloud.

On the other hand, I don't think the PC population of mindreaders is at any given time that large.

[Eilwen]

[KankWhisperer]

Without channels, radios, some kind of Magick amulets, or some other convenience, the way is one of the things that make the game playable.

[hopeandsorrow]

Without channels, radios, some kind of Magick amulets, or some other convenience, the way is one of the things that make the game playable.

What if wasn't entirely reliable in the "Can't spy on me, hur hur hur" way?

I think that's what all us whiners want.  A way to spy on people and their sekrets. So they can't sit and way each other in a room unafraid of being eavesdropped on.

[Zerero]

It'd be cool if using the way gave off a visible, coded echo. Maybe one that could be resisted via wisdom/endurance check? Or maybe not, don't need more reasons to aim for beefy stats.

I know quite a few people like to RP rubbing their temple and whatnot.

I don't like the Way too much myself. But the game definitely needs something to fill the role of radio/comms, etc.

[Armaddict]

In reality, I'm okay with things as is.  This is not a super duper big problem in the came, lower priority on the list of things I'd like to see changed than a lot of things.

I was actually just chiming in to say that this is a legitimate thing to -have- on the list.  I don't see the Way as detrimental to the game, but I do see the way it is currently utilized as detrimental to the overall state of the game.  I'd like to see it used to coordinate and inform, but not to have entire in-depth conversations over.

Hell.  I'd like it to be expanded so that everyone got psionic shocks when people close to them died.  There's all sorts of room for it.

But I just wanted to clarify that I am -not- for removal of the Way, just participating in discussion in some of the various tweaks that could make it cooler and better for the game.  Most things have room for improvement, if approached correctly.

[KankWhisperer]

What if you actually had to meet the person you are waying at least once before you could way them further? At least you would have to travel one time to various locations.

[BadSkeelz]

It'd impact people trying to get hired (especially newbies). Cause more trouble than it'll save, I'm afraid.

I really don't want to see the way, as it functions for 99% of the playerbase, nerfed in function or ease of use. I would like to see it be more easily intercepted. Even if we know as players that mindworms are rare, sponsored roles should operate with the assumption that they are NOT and that they're currently spying on our PCs. Waying should be discouraged for all serious "plotting" discussion.

[Refugee]

I like being able to use the Way for conversations the way it is now.  When I went back to try the new SoI for a bit, I missed it a lot.  It's a socializing tool that you don't have in other games.  That's why I play an archaic text game...to cooperatively write this story with others.

People would gather more, I know.  But still.  I like it the way it is.

[Dresan]

I don't think the way should change, it would be too OOCly inconvenient.

However I've always though that the 'the way' would probably be a pretty strong mental signal. It would be great if mundanes has the ability to pick up those signals (based on skill/wisdom) if you are in the same room with a person using the way. This might be going into mindbender territory, but it shouldn't make people into mindworms any more than everyone having barrier has. 


Also, I'm all for giving city sneaks and mundanes getting a few extra cool abilities.

[Delirium]

It might be cool if being in the same room as someone Waying carried the risk of "bleedover".

Unfortunately that probably means that people would just hide in locked rooms to do their Waying.

[Molten Heart]

I think it'd be cool if it were possible to randomly develop a larger degree of psionic ability (humans at least).Call them wild talents or whatever. Maybe they aren't very strong with T̶h̶e̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶c̶e̶ The Way, so they aren't masters but they do have some limited ability there beyond what people normally have. Because they'd still technically be psionicists, they'd want to keep these abilities secret. Some may even choose to hide and never practice these abilities, for fear of what people might do to them if they were discovered.

This would make the game more interest in the regard in that psionicism wouldn't be so black and white.