Rangers OP or Just Right? Split from RAT

[Lizzie]

Do you guys really not believe more skills could be added to the other classes to make them more fun and diverse, without stepping over the bounds of their niche?

edited to be more pc

I just don't think it's necessary when we have subguilds and extended subguilds. That's what they're for - to make characters more fun and diverse.

[555]

Subguilds, with a few exceptions, kind of suck, but as long as they're usable it's fine. Extended subguilds are somewhat less suck to pretty damn amazing, depending WHICH extended subguild you use with which guild. Even the suck extended subs, however, can change the game for you in a critical moment, if you're lucky. Normal subguilds, most can do the same, if VERY lucky. Not complaining about how it is, I just like the idea of being pretty spiffy at more than one thing.

[Jihelu]

The only good subguild is Thug and Bard and I refuse to believe otherwise.


...
And scavenger.
Thats it.

[hopeandsorrow]

The only good subguild is Thug and Bard and I refuse to believe otherwise.


...
And scavenger.
Thats it.

Wait wait wait....

How is Hunter not on the list?
How is Thief not on the list?

[Saellyn]

The only good subguild is GENERAL CRAFTloooool

[RogueGunslinger]

Do you guys really not believe more skills could be added to the other classes to make them more fun and diverse, without stepping over the bounds of their niche?

edited to be more pc

I just don't think it's necessary when we have subguilds and extended subguilds. That's what they're for - to make characters more fun and diverse.

Uhh. all those subguilds and extended subguilds do is make the guilds more like each-other, not more diverse.

[Jihelu]

The only good subguild is Thug and Bard and I refuse to believe otherwise.


...
And scavenger.
Thats it.

Wait wait wait....

How is Hunter not on the list?
How is Thief not on the list?

Because warrior already gets archery and skinning so hunter is trash.
And if you pick thief then you aren't an elf or pickpocket so you are playing the game wrong.

[Asanadas]

Extended subguilds are a bandage, not a solution. I understand working Ext. Subguilds into normal character creation is coming (Soon), but as it is now, it's not a livable avenue of a solution. Three times every year, when the average character turnover is.... much faster than that. If I have one karma, I should be able to pick master chef for every character I want: and three for the others, as it stands.

That's how it's going to be one day (Soon) but until then, rangers are going to stay the most versatile option.

[hopeandsorrow]

The only good subguild is Thug and Bard and I refuse to believe otherwise.


...
And scavenger.
Thats it.

Wait wait wait....

How is Hunter not on the list?
How is Thief not on the list?

Because warrior already gets archery and skinning so hunter is trash.
And if you pick thief then you aren't an elf or pickpocket so you are playing the game wrong.

Assassin/Hunter
Ranger/Thief

Dats why.

[manipura]

There are plenty of decent options for guild and subguild/extended subguild combinations, depending on what you want to do with your character.
It seems though, that half of you just want things to be your way so you can come in and WIN ARMAGEDDON!  
And if you can't have a one day warrior that's pwning noobs -and- picking locks -and- making instruments -and- speaking fluent tatlum while you set up camp in the wilderness 'cause you wanna ranger too...then you just aren't happy and everything is broken.

I've known great 'outdoor' characters who weren't rangers.
I've known very effective/accomplished killers, that weren't assassins or maxed rangers.

Before I noticed -those- things about them though, I noticed what great RPers they were.

And they're all dead now, because Armageddon isn't for winning, it's for telling a story with all the other nerds who are telling their story at the same time.

[555]

Give merchants brew, branched from, I don't know, floristry. Seriously.

[manipura]

If merchants get brew from floristry (a stretch, if you ask me) then everyone with brew should get floristry. 
So all those rangers in the wild and the cold-hearted killers of the Known can make pretty-pretty perfumes.

*ponders*

Can you apply perfume to a dead body?

New idea: Create an uber-assassin who uses various perfumes on the bodies, as her calling card.  I'm claiming this idea.  No one steal it, if you do I'll come after you. (Hopefully with my burglar-hunter-masterchef-apothecary-linguist-who-makes-instruments-on-the-side...just because)

[RogueGunslinger]

If merchants get brew from floristry (a stretch, if you ask me) then everyone with brew should get floristry. 
So all those rangers in the wild and the cold-hearted killers of the Known can make pretty-pretty perfumes.

*ponders*

Can you apply perfume to a dead body?

New idea: Create an uber-assassin who uses various perfumes on the bodies, as her calling card.  I'm claiming this idea.  No one steal it, if you do I'll come after you. (Hopefully with my burglar-hunter-masterchef-apothecary-linguist-who-makes-instruments-on-the-side...just because)

A reverse Jean-Baptiste Grenouille, if you will. I love that movie.

[lostinspace]

The only good subguild is GENERAL CRAFTloooool

Never again.

[Jihelu]

Make tinker a regular guild too op.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

There are plenty of decent options for guild and subguild/extended subguild combinations, depending on what you want to do with your character.
It seems though, that half of you just want things to be your way so you can come in and WIN ARMAGEDDON!  
And if you can't have a one day warrior that's pwning noobs -and- picking locks -and- making instruments -and- speaking fluent tatlum while you set up camp in the wilderness 'cause you wanna ranger too...then you just aren't happy and everything is broken.

I've known great 'outdoor' characters who weren't rangers.
I've known very effective/accomplished killers, that weren't assassins or maxed rangers.

Before I noticed -those- things about them though, I noticed what great RPers they were.

And they're all dead now, because Armageddon isn't for winning, it's for telling a story with all the other nerds who are telling their story at the same time.

Somewhere, in some other dimension, there's a version of the Armageddon forums with a like button. There's a like button, and I'm pressing it furiously and repeatedly for this post.

I don't really have much else to add, but in the interest of making a legit post...

Don't sleep on the absolute hell a well-played Burglar's skillset can bring down on even the best rangers and warriors out there. 

[Beethoven]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm in the "buff non-rangers" camp and I'm about as far from caring about "winning Armageddon" as you can get. It's just that in my experience, ranger feels the least "gamey" of all the classes I've tried, and I'd like the other classes to feel that way as well. I think overspecialization contributes to that feeling of...gaminess.

[lostinspace]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm in the "buff non-rangers" camp and I'm about as far from caring about "winning Armageddon" as you can get. It's just that in my experience, ranger feels the least "gamey" of all the classes I've tried, and I'd like the other classes to feel that way as well. I think overspecialization contributes to that feeling of...gaminess.

I think that's where the majority of us sit. Having options is a good thing, and they don't necessarily have to overlap. I think the crafting skills burglars get are awesome because it's thematic of the guild. You aren't a burglar, you're making rat meat pies and serving them up all day and at night you just go out and make some extra on the side. I don't see what harm would be involved in giving them a few more generic crafting skills to pad out the fact they're not full time burglars. That's why people like rangers so much, they can do so many things AND have skills to help facilitate those things. Rangers can be medics, scavengers, grebbers, guides, and so much more just by virtue of being a ranger, before even adding in all the options a sub-guild gives. I just want that same level of awesome for all the classes.

[hopeandsorrow]

The above two posts sums up my thoughts exactly.

[In Dreams]

I don't think it has to do with winning anything. For me it has a lot more to do with feeling like my PC is a living, breathing person instead of an assembly of predetermined skills.

If I pick a warrior guild but through IC happenings, thoughts, and motivations, my PC decides she wants to be a cobbler and make shoes, with the instruction, time and money to go and pour her life into it for a year, or two years, or five or ten years, I really wish it were possible for her to do that. But it's just not. I think it'd be really, really cool if you could add a new subguild for every five years of your PC's life past twenty.

I get that it's an older game and we have limitations. At least making the guilds a lot more flexible like ranger is would go a long, long way.

[Mordiggian]

Extended subguilds are a bandage, not a solution. I understand working Ext. Subguilds into normal character creation is coming (Soon), but as it is now, it's not a livable avenue of a solution. Three times every year, when the average character turnover is.... much faster than that. If I have one karma, I should be able to pick master chef for every character I want: and three for the others, as it stands.

That's how it's going to be one day (Soon) but until then, rangers are going to stay the most versatile option.

Part of working extended subguilds into character creation means anyone with the karma to use that subguild will have access to it like any other karma option. As I mentioned in my last post, we acknowledge it's not a be-all end-all solution, and that there is some other stuff being worked on to address these concerns.

I don't know all the details on this though, it's another project I'm not really involved in since it's primarily code stuff.

[WanderingOoze]

There are plenty of decent options for guild and subguild/extended subguild combinations, depending on what you want to do with your character.
It seems though, that half of you just want things to be your way so you can come in and WIN ARMAGEDDON!  
And if you can't have a one day warrior that's pwning noobs -and- picking locks -and- making instruments -and- speaking fluent tatlum while you set up camp in the wilderness 'cause you wanna ranger too...then you just aren't happy and everything is broken.

I've known great 'outdoor' characters who weren't rangers.
I've known very effective/accomplished killers, that weren't assassins or maxed rangers.

Before I noticed -those- things about them though, I noticed what great RPers they were.

And they're all dead now, because Armageddon isn't for winning, it's for telling a story with all the other nerds who are telling their story at the same time.

Somewhere, in some other dimension, there's a version of the Armageddon forums with a like button. There's a like button, and I'm pressing it furiously and repeatedly for this post.

I don't really have much else to add, but in the interest of making a legit post...

Don't sleep on the absolute hell a well-played Burglar's skillset can bring down on even the best rangers and warriors out there. 

Because there's no like button, and I'm not overly concerned  With Making legit posts.

[Rokal]

I think most of the things rangers get make sense. The level of some of the things they get are a bit much in comparison to what others get at times. That said, I don't think rangers need to get nerfed but other classes definately need some love.

These aren't all my ideas but ideas I've certainly liked:

• Warriors are masters of all forms combat, they should become good enough to fight on a mount without needing a subguild ride.
• Assassin should branch the other weapons skills in order to better defend against them, and some of their skill levels should be adjusted. They should have the very best eyes in the game.
• Pickpocket should merge with burgalar and renamed thief, losing backstab, poison and throw but keeping sap (the thief subguild should be renamed pickpocket). They should have the best ears in the game.

However, I thought guilds were going to get looked at after sub-guilds. Not sure what the status is of the sub-guilds, there seemed to be changes coming but feels like that lost some steam.

I personally agree that burglar and pickpocket should be combined - throw should be kept, but really, back stab isn't really nessesary. I also personaly think they should have master level climb, but thats just me.

[KawaiiBear]

Ranger is my least favourite guild in terms of actual skills but I love the ability to quit in the wilderness.

For some reason staff seems to be unwilling to make an extended subguild with this ability. It'd certainly make it harder to camp common quit safe rooms to catch bad guys.

One day. I can dream.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I always love when these skills discussions come up and people try to argue their points while beating around the fact that we've pretty much all seen either the .zip file that's been making the rounds for over a decade or we've lurked through the other arm discussion board. While I'm lifting veils, I would like to point out that we all masturbate as well.

Now that we've got that out of the way, with regards to combat skill specifically, warriors, rangers, and assassins look basically like this:

• All 3 have weapon skills which cap at the same level. Obviously assassins are missing chopping and slashing, and warriors have their special weapon skills which almost none of them ever branch or raise to a significant extent.
• Rangers have a slightly higher cap to dual wield than warriors, but two hand is the same. Assassins have a significantly lower cap (~25%) in both skills.
• Warrior parry and shield use is significantly higher than ranger and assassin both, but assassin is still lower than ranger in both regards.

So if we're just using the "kill" command rangers are offensively just as good as warriors, and defensively only a bit worse. Obviously having parry to start with a is a huge benefit for the first 20 days played, but after that these two pretty much even out. Yeah, a warrior will probably win in the sparring circle, but in a real fight a ranger will mop the floor with them as long as their player is awake at the keyboard.

With that established, I think the reason that rangers seem OP is because they're extremely versitile. In a combat-focused clan they're just about as good of fighters as warriors, and are indispensable when your unit leaves the gates. In a merchant clan... I don't even need to finish this sentence. As an indy, a knowledgeable ranger will never have to spend a cent on food or water. There's always a need for a good ranger. More-so than any other class in the game, probably.

By comparison warriors are the bread and butter of most clans, but they don't really stand out. They're good at guarding, but they can't scan or listen for sneakys. They're good at killing critters, but they can't skin. They can't ride very well. They can't poison, brew, or hunt. Unless their opponent is willing to stand still for them, they can't PvP too well outside of apartments. Since they can't craft or hunt, they don't have as easy a time getting food, water, and money.

Outside of the rinth and noble aiding, assassins aren't too useful. They stick out like a sore thumb in the rank and file of any clan (which is where you'll spend all your time because being your boss's sneaky right hand is probably a far-off dream at best). They can't stand toe-to-toe with either ranger or warrior in the sparring ring, at any amount of time played. Poison and backstab should make up for this, but since all the poison is in the desert (your kryptonite), and backstab is basically impossible to train if you're being subtle about it at all... you won't be able to rely on these. So you're the least self-reliant of the three, and clans don't have much use for a low level assassin.

Obviously I'm painting with broad strokes here, and we've all played at least one exception to the rule, but generally this is where I see these classes at in terms of skill and game play.

I'm in the boat of wanting to elevate other classes, rather than gank the ranger. If every class were as versatile and fun as a ranger, this game would be a lot better. To that end, here are some ideas for improving other classes:

Warriors

• Up their ride cap and give them CHARGE (to a lower cap than ranger). There's no reason they shouldn't be able to function as effective cavalry.
• Give them scan off of guarding or rescue or something. Not ranger/assassin level, but useful enough to catch shitty thieves / assassins. One of their primary functions is as a guard, isn't it?
• Climb. Just. Climb. There's no reason a 1 room climb should add an hour to a Byn outing.

Assassins

• Give them all the weapon skills. A sword is a human vs human weapon, not a hunting weapon. So why should rangers have it, but not assassins?
• Rework backstab. Have it start at like jman or advanced, and have it add very little to the actual success of backstabbing. Instead, have backstab feed off of the character's other skills. Sneak / hide could determine success, and offense / piercing weapons could determine damage. Doing this would mean that you could get backstab past apprentice without having to risk losing karma.
• Give access to brew from something OTHER THAN poison. You'll still have a hard time gathering the materials you need, but at least you won't kill yourself long before you're able to train it safely.

Burglars & Pickpockets
Just combine them. I agree that a single rogue class, as D&D has, would be ungodly powerful in Armageddon. But if you gave assassins the combat aspect of the rogue, while Burglars and Pickpockets got the cunning, theiving aspects I think you would have much more compelling classes. They would overlap quite a bit, but one would be combat focused and the other wouldn't be quite as much.

Rangers
I think part of what makes them so good in Arm is that they pretty much are as they were in D&D. D&D Rangers are modeled after Aragorn and were considered warriors, not hunters. They have Fighter-level base attack bonuses and hit points, but where fighters get more feats (and thus better combat maneuvers like disarm and trip), rangers got outdoorsy skills. They were made for hunting orcs, not antelopes. If anything, the versitility of the armageddon rangers really begs the question, what are they? Hunters? Military scouts? Raiders? I think the answer is "they are what you play them as", so I'd rather not see them changed. Gun to my head, though, I would say reduce their melee effectiveness a little bit.