Rangers OP or Just Right? Split from RAT

[Desertman]

This is the same way for combat. I see people roll into my gym regularly who have what we call, "Awkward body economy.". They don't know how to move their own bodies. I can watch someone for two minutes hitting a bag and tell you immediately their boxing skill will always be Novice. They will never get any better. They simply lack the ability to move their bodies.

Okay! So! Find someone who is an absolute pro at, say, using a club. This person can take a club and totally take out a baby seal of considerable size with one swing of even a club of meager viciousness. This same person can go fishing or hunting in their back yard with a spear and have enough food to feed their family for a week in a couple hours, because they are wow, really super impressive with a spear.

This same person cannot ever, even if they spend ten years doing it, learn how to, say, swing a sword well enough to hit pretty much anything that moves? If they took aim at a stick of butter on the kitchen counter they'd smash their microwave, chop their kid's head off, and a lot of precious china before they ever managed to slice buttery goodness?

Sorry, you can try your very best to explain that away, but we both know you'd just be rationalising and covering up for an arbitrary code limitation that's both silly on its own and one of the reasons rangers are better than everyone else: they can do everything!

Giving all weapon skills to all combative types would also go a long way towards squishing the fact that someone's weapon choices make their guild pretty obvious at all times.

Demian Maia - The real life walking manifestation of exactly what you are describing. He is a monster (one of THE best in the world, if not still the best) in a single aspect of combat but is a retarded one-legged blind monkey in every other aspect even after years of professional training from some of the best in the world.

These guys exist. They are amazing athletes who are extraordinarily (literally the best in the world) gifted in one single thing....but it does not and will never translate for them into any meaningful skill in any other related art form, ever....they simply lack the ability.  



Just watching the guy move is awkward as shit. Watching him on the ground is like beholding the Holy Grail of death. It's black and white, night and day. Interesting really.

[Armaddict]

If I compared them to Rangers.  Rangers can be hunters, treasure hunters, herbalists, desert guides, assassins, and soldiers.  Perhaps with various degrees of proficiency, but no other class has that many options.  I Feel they should.  I Feel warriors should be more than sacks of unperceptive meat with weapons attached.  I Believe that the stealth triangle needs to at lest share among it self the various skills it has, to a degree a Burglar can claim proficiency in something other than the one Gimmick of opening locks, or picking pockets, or stabbing people.

My experience, short of a spec app or extended sub-guild. You don't see Burglar's being much use out of burglary.  Or Pick Pockets being much use but as inventory specialists, or Assassins can claim the level of proficiency that warriors/rangers can with soldiering.

Rangers can be all those things, because all those things have a large portion of time outdoors.  What you're talking about is being outdoors, not a class.  That class just happens to be the one tailored to things outside the city.

Inside the city is where specialization is key.  So again, that makes sense to me.  Inside the city, a ranger maintains employability just because of the number of clans that have interests outside the city.  However, for those who have interests within the city, it is not a ranger that they generally look for, unless someone connected to that plot happens to know of a ranger who chose those subguilds and has been making a name for themself in that way.

Assassins are city rangers.  Almost straight up, across the board.  Burglars are more versatile than assassins are, but combat-lite.  Pickpockets are capable of doing what either of the other two can do, not as well, but with the added bonus of being able to acquire and manipulate to the max.  If you play PC's who -never- leave the city, which I do, there is literally -no- reason to choose ranger.

[555]

Buff city elves.

[lostinspace]

Assassins are city rangers with two less weapon skills, mediocre climbing, worse parry, less ranged efficacy, but better stealth.

[Armaddict]

Assassins are city rangers with two less weapon skills, mediocre climbing, worse parry, less ranged efficacy, but better stealth.

Weapon skills are less of an issue since they have backstab, which grants them more killing power than a ranger within the city.  Mediocre climbing in a place where climbing is not essential to survival, and where long drops are rare where climbs are more secure.  Parry is roughly equivalent and branched sooner, generally.  Much better stealth indeed.

Edit:  Oh.  And ranged efficacy.  Long range in the city is best countered with 'moving'.  Not behind a door.  Just moving.  Where the desert is open spaces where two people can move parallel to each other for long distances, you can often duck completely out of a ranged attack by moving one room, so that they have to move within one room of you.  Which is where throw is advantageous over archery.  Which makes it great for assassins.

[lostinspace]

If weapon skills aren't a big issue then why not let assassin have all 4? Let them chose between backstab and chopping fools.
Climb is just a sore spot for assassins, because I'm pretty sure the subguilds are better at climbing than them. Maybe it's true that climbing is easier in the city, but I know when soldiers are chasing me I definitely don't want to slip on that 2 room climb.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd much rather have assassins get the same cap on dualwield and parry as rangers.
Yes, better stealth.
Do rangers not also get throw of a similar skill level?

I don't think Rangers need to be tuned down, but I do think that pound for pound the ranger is better and would like for the other guilds to get bumped into line.

[wizturbo]

Rangers are the best at exactly two things, which is archery and riding animals.  Well, and skinning, if you want to count that.  Hunt is roughly equivalent to assassins, scan is roughly equivalent to assassins, poison is less than assassins.  Rangers are only very marginally better than assassins at combat, if at all, their only advantage being they can choose a weapon type.  They are not best at guarding or rescuing.  They are not capable of locking anything down without use of poisons (as warriors, assassins, and even pickpockets are).  They are not best at climbing, or listening.

I suppose only the staff know for sure, but I was under the impression that they are the best at climbing, listening, bandaging, foraging, brewing.   If they aren't, then who is?!

[Jihelu]

Rangers are the best at exactly two things, which is archery and riding animals.  Well, and skinning, if you want to count that.  Hunt is roughly equivalent to assassins, scan is roughly equivalent to assassins, poison is less than assassins.  Rangers are only very marginally better than assassins at combat, if at all, their only advantage being they can choose a weapon type.  They are not best at guarding or rescuing.  They are not capable of locking anything down without use of poisons (as warriors, assassins, and even pickpockets are).  They are not best at climbing, or listening.

I suppose only the staff know for sure, but I was under the impression that they are the best at climbing, listening, bandaging, foraging, brewing.   If they aren't, then who is?!

RUkkians are the best at foraging if I'm correct.

[lostinspace]

I think Burglar is tied with them for climbing and better at listening. Assassin is tied for brewing I believe. I am pretty sure they are the best at archery, and the best guild at riding although there is an alternative. I have no idea about bandaging but I wouldn't doubt they are the best.

Edit: I think he's right, Rukkians are better at foraging.

[Armaddict]

Bandaging is very possible, but from what I've observed, rarely used (hence discussions on how to make it better so people would actually use it).

Climbing is burglars.  Listening is burglars I think.  Foraging...I'm actually not sure, as far as mundanes go.  Brewing?  

Granted.  This is based off older information, but I've seen nothing to indicate its changed, and the 'master' levels I've reached with PC's since skills became visible are consistent with the other numbers I've seen.  If these are the things you're upset about, you're talking about relatively minor parts of the game aside from listening (which those who get it are all pretty good at it, making it almost moot), and arguably foraging.

Those are hardly enough to justify an uproar demanding rebalancing of all classes because ranger is too OP.  Again, I argue that it has more to do with people wanting to be able to go outside the city confidently than anything else, and there not being multiple outdoor classes the way there are multiple city classes (needfully so).

[lostinspace]

You're right, they are minor things, but there are lots of them. In terms of the skills they have, rangers are pretty solidly 2nd, 1st, or tied for one of those. The only exception I think being the sneak and hide because the city 3 have a wonky mix of those that throws assassin into 3rd. And in terms of raw number of skills they have a lot of them. I think they need most of them, but not all, I don't know why rangers are so good at throwing when they have archery, and I don't know why they're the only non-warrior guild with all 4 weapon skills. There's nothing wrong with it, but I'd like to see assassin raised to match them in some of these areas.

[wizturbo]

Those are hardly enough to justify an uproar demanding rebalancing of all classes because ranger is too OP.  Again, I argue that it has more to do with people wanting to be able to go outside the city confidently than anything else, and there not being multiple outdoor classes the way there are multiple city classes (needfully so).

There's no uproar.  No demands.  And no need to rebalance everything...  I just think Rangers should get tuned down slightly.  Reduce their weapon skill cap.  Or tune down some of their non-combat skills so they're more jack of all trades instead of king or queen of all trades.

Sure, I suppose you could go the other route of buffing all the other guilds to be on par with Ranger...  Maybe that would be more fun?  I don't know.  But it would certainly be a lot more work, and could unbalance a significant part of the game dynamic.  Of course, the status quo isn't exactly "bad" so maybe nothing needs to be changed at all. 

[Armaddict]

Sorry.  I exaggerate, I call it an uproar because it started as casual mention and a bunch of people clamored to join in on it.

But just to reiterate.  I'm fine with lots of rangers.  Makes sense.  People who go outside the city gravitate towards two classes.  I only came in because uh...trying to make the city classes combine out of comparison to the outdoor ranger is...not bueno.  Assassins equivocate well.  The other two are not city rangers, they are their own thing (and very good at their things, too.)  If incentive is needed to play a burglar or pickpocket, commit to not leaving the gates, and being a non-combative character first.

[hopeandsorrow]

Sorry.  I exaggerate, I call it an uproar because it started as casual mention and a bunch of people clamored to join in on it.

To be fair, the nerf was a causal mention and I turned the defense of Rangers into an uproar.

Mostly I <3 rangers something fierce.

I really wish the other classes had the Range of options they did.  Currently from my perspective, they don't. Why I generally don't care to play them.  A varied skill list with something beyond their one gimmick would make them more viable from my stand point.  With out having to rely on a extended sub-guild.

[In Dreams]

Sure, I suppose you could go the other route of buffing all the other guilds to be on par with Ranger...  Maybe that would be more fun?  I don't know.  But it would certainly be a lot more work, and could unbalance a significant part of the game dynamic.  Of course, the status quo isn't exactly "bad" so maybe nothing needs to be changed at all.  

This is missing the point completely. At least with me.

The point is, Ranger is fun! It's flexible, strong, gives you tons of roleplay opportunities! They can useful in the city, but they obviously are outside too. They're good with combat and they can craft things. With the right choice of subguild and enough time they could be just about anything you wanted them to and still be fun doing other things also if your PC took the time to learn other fields! And I don't think that should be changed at all. They're dynamic and fun and full and versatile.

It's not about 'balance'. I just want more guilds like ranger. That's how every guild should be.

[Norcal]

Examining the viability and opportunities of the various main guilds is in future plans.

DO NOT mess with my Rangers diggity...or I will take your hair. parietal bone.

[Lizzie]

Sure, I suppose you could go the other route of buffing all the other guilds to be on par with Ranger...  Maybe that would be more fun?  I don't know.  But it would certainly be a lot more work, and could unbalance a significant part of the game dynamic.  Of course, the status quo isn't exactly "bad" so maybe nothing needs to be changed at all.  

This is missing the point completely. At least with me.

The point is, Ranger is fun! It's flexible, strong, gives you tons of roleplay opportunities! They can useful in the city, but they obviously are outside too. They're good with combat and they can craft things. With the right choice of subguild and enough time they could be just about anything you wanted them to and still be fun doing other things also if your PC took the time to learn other fields! And I don't think that should be changed at all. They're dynamic and fun and full and versatile.

It's not about 'balance'. I just want more guilds like ranger. That's how every guild should be.

If ranger has everything you want, combined with the right subguild, why not just always play ranger with the right subguild?

I play other guilds because they are NOT like ranger. I love rangers - my favorite mundane guild, and I very rarely play any other mundane guild. That's because it's exactly as you say - fun, useful inside the city, though designed for outside the city. But - they can't mastercraft anything. They wouldn't know a bargain if a templar forced one on them. There are many weapon skills they will never learn at all - let alone be any good with. They can't pick locks. In fact, there are a lot of things they can't do at all.

But the things they can do make them an incredibly awesome utility guild, and I love utility guilds. That's why I also prefer rukkians and whirans to krathis or drovians. And so, when I want to play a mage, I will usually pick a rukkian or (special app) a whiran.

In short: if you want a variety of utility skills, pick a ranger. That's what they're best at. If you want a masterfully powerful bashing-kicking-wrestling beast (that no one will spar with), pick a half-giant or mul warrior. If you want to make beautiful things and some day design your own fashions AND armor with coordinating jewelry, select a merchant.

Each guild excels at something each other guild does not excel at. Variety, rather than any one specific category of skills, is the ranger's forte.

[RogueGunslinger]

Do you guys really not believe more skills could be added to the other classes to make them more fun and diverse, without stepping over the bounds of their niche?

edited to be more pc

[Saellyn]

I think warriors would benefit from even a middling scan to supplement their guard ability. Nothing to stop the ultimate assassin, but enough to catch the typical runt trying to pick a charge's pocket.

[Mordiggian]

Examining the viability and opportunities of the various main guilds is in future plans.

DO NOT mess with my Rangers diggity...or I will take your hair. parietal bone.

It's not a project I'm very involved in and it's a ways off so I'm not going to talk much about it but none of our internal discussions have revolved around ideas like nerfing rangers, and I personally prefer to not look at guild viability like class balance in an MMORPG because we aren't an MMORPG and our guilds don't really function as an effective analog to a traditional RPG class system. As a result, I like to avoid 'buff' and 'nerf' because they imply that we're trying to balance guilds for Warsong Gulch or arena queues, which isn't really true.

Do you guys really not believe more skills could be added to the other classes to make them more fun and diverse, without stepping over the bounds of their niche?

Use your fucking imagination.

There are some things we can do to make other guilds more interesting to play. Adding new skills is a tricky one, especially when it comes to combat skills.

I think the addition of extended subguilds to the character generation process will go a ways toward addressing this problem to some degree. (Not to the exclusion of other changes, before anyone misquotes me somewhere.)

[Dresan]

Rangers become really good fighters. The only thing that beats them in a straight out fight is warrior. Mostly due to disarm or advanced weapon skills. Mounted combat is OP however and alot of times this is how you'll be fighting.

They can [redacted].

They can forage food and water. Skin. [redacted] in case you aren't loaded with money.

Archery, [redacted] later on because why the hell not.

Mix in the rest of their survival skills,bandage, [redacted], guard...yeah sure they might not the best but still very good. Its not hard to see why they are so popular, especially how strong they get with just about any sub-guild.


Agian, when you compare their versatility to just about any other class you have to admit there is room for at least a little bit of improvement in other classes.

[Jave]

Hey, let's try not to start talking about the guild system's skill tree and what branches in which class in such explicit terms, even if the classes are 0 karma mundane ones.

[Dresan]

Well you left guard.

And took out the things mentioned in the helpfile.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons and strategic retreat. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

Not to mention all the things I've mentioned have been expicitly stated in other post already, but whatever...

[Medivh]

City quit is a cool idea.

[Jave]

Well you left guard.

And took out the things mentioned in the helpfile.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons and strategic retreat. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

Not to mention all the things I've mentioned have been expicitly stated in other post already, but whatever...

Emphasis on explicit.

The helpfiles leave some stuff to the imagination on purpose instead of just saying: This guild gets these skills.

I know it's a fuzzy line to tow. Nothing personal against you Dresan, you're just the first post I saw.