Injuries - Longterm effects

[theebie]

How about adding something like this:

If you ever get below 50% health you get:
-10% offense skill for 2 IG days
Plus an entry in 'score': You are recovering from a minor injury

If you get below 10% health you get:
-50% offense skill for 20 IG days
+80% additional damage taken, if you get hit for 20 IG days
-30% max hitpoints for 15 IG days
Plus an entry in 'score': You are recovering from a nearly deadly wound

---
These values are just examples with which I try to represent the general idea. They may be changed, and there may be more of them ('minor injury', 'major injury' 'nearly deadly wound' 'whatnot'), giving various effects.
They might not vanish at all, but a 'major injury' might be reduced to a 'minor injury' after x days.

Best regards,
Theebie

[Case]

Not necessarily those things but I'd be down for it.

[Lizzie]

What I'd like - is if serious injuries resulted in an extended (doubled) movement delay.

If you had a grievous wound - no matter where or why - there's no way in hell it makes any sense to be able to walk or run at the usual pace once the adrenaline rush wears off.

So for serious wounds, and below 50% hp loss, the code would wait til after "flee" or after 2 rooms of movement occurs, then flag on a double-delay time for a RL hour.

[theebie]

the main reason i'd like this to happen is to somehow reflect longterm injury (and for krath sake YES, i KNOW that it can be rped out)

it just so often happens though that it doesn't. you get crushed by a half-giant in sparring, and boom, next morning you're off with the crew to hunt tarantulas ...

with some kind of malus (like -20% hp, -20% defense, whatever), people would think twice if running out wounded is such a great idea.

the young, brown-haired mercenary says to the dark-scarred dwarven sergeant: "Sorry Sarge, but I really really can't manage this trip with this leg wound" ...

[nauta]

I'd be down with it with the proviso: unless a physician did some physician skill.  Because physicians really don't get enough use.

[Zenith]

I'd be down with it with the proviso: unless a physician did some physician skill.  Because physicians really don't get enough use.

I love that idea. Vivaduans should be able to remove any effects, too.

[titansfan]

I like making physicians more important!

[theebie]

might be a neat skill for a physician, to be able to reduce a wound by one severity, like:

You are recovering from a major wound.

---->

The blue-eyed physician skillfully treats your wound.

---->

You are recovering from a minor wound (treated)

Those treated wounds then would not be able to be cured further (since that'd again allow highly skilled people to instant-heal folks, negating the whole idea of this concept, maybe a highly skilled vivaduan could do that though)

and great idea to have vivaduans be able to do that, too ... it might force people to actually ask for help of those.

[Synthesis]

Sounds super annoying.

Like I needed another reason to consider not logging in.

[hopeandsorrow]

Sounds super annoying.

Like I needed another reason to consider not logging in.

I voted yet even if I some what agree with your sentiment.

It be interesting to see, but I hate for it to fall into (OOC annoyance) territory when it was aiming for immersive. 

It require tweaking, community input/feed back. 
20 IG days for example seems steep, but that could be my perspective.

Lizzie had a good workable idea.  A sudden burst of adrenaline (flight or fight response) followed by double movement cost due to injuries.

[Riev]

A wound system would be nice, but the coding around them (both in what effects they have and how they are shown) seem like it'd be a wishlist.

It'd be nice to have one, though. Minor wounds = -2 max hp. Major wounds = -4max hp. Only bandages and vivaduans can heal major wounds, other wounds will slowly lapse like drunkeness.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't like it.

Combat Characters take enough damage over their lifetimes just in sparring halls that they'll rack up wounds and detrimental effects very quickly. Maybe it's more realistic, but I doubt it's more fun.

Leave wound RP to the players.

[BadSkeelz]

A compromise would be to make the larger scars have a weight value, reflecting the degraded mobility and fitness that comes with being torn the fuck up. This would let players choose if they want to take that burden on themselves, just like they can decide whether they want to lose an eye or limb and replace it with a prosthetic.

[Vwest]

I might be fine with it, provided I could look 'around corners' instead of just N, E, S and W.

I've been blind sided by mekillots and worse because Zalanthans all suffer severe tunnel vision. It's already a problem when a 'mek out of fucking nowhere!' tears your character down to critical. It would verge on the insulting if it then forced me to sit around in a tavern for a couple RL days waiting for some timer to run down.

This would just compound the problems caused by current code limitations. Do not want.

[Delirium]

It would need to be introduced alongside expanded and improved bandage skill & physician abilities.

[Erythil]

I'd be all for this if we weren't running a hack and slash engine that sees all combatants getting severely hacked and slashed on a regular basis.  As it is, I'm skeptical, for reasons mentioned above.

[James de Monet]

I started coding a wound system that would track damage to specific body parts and show it on a paper doll display of your char (kinda like Fallout).  It would also assign minor or major injuries (that would heal over time) if a specific body part received enough damage.  The idea was to be able to automatically send emotes/feels back to the client to help people to roleplay injuries more realistically.  ("You feel your side throb dizzingly around your bruised rib.")

This is all based on my status panel code, though, which people didn't really seem to be interested in, so I don't know if anyone beside me would benefit from me finishing the wound add-on.




Edited to fix the echo.  Not really sure if that's an appropriate use of "feel", but I don't know what else would work.

[CodeMaster]

I started coding a wound system that would track damage to specific body parts and show it on a paper doll display of your char (kinda like Fallout).  It would also assign minor or major injuries (that would heal over time) if a specific body part received enough damage.  The idea was to be able to automatically send emotes/feels back to the client to help people to roleplay injuries more realistically.  ("You feel your side throb dizzingly around your bruised rib.")

This is all based on my status panel code, though, which people didn't really seem to be interested in, so I don't know if anyone beside me would benefit from me finishing it.

fwiw, I thought your status panel was an awesome idea.

I like survivalism nonsense so I wouldn't mind injuries and reliance on basic things like bandages - that anyone could use - as a requirement for getting back to full health.  Since you can salvage cloth from anything, that doesn't seem like something that would make people too depressed to log into their character (?!).

Probably a million other things on the coder todo list though.  Augmenting your client like JDM does is a great idea.

[Akariel]

I started coding a wound system that would track damage to specific body parts and show it on a paper doll display of your char (kinda like Fallout).  It would also assign minor or major injuries (that would heal over time) if a specific body part received enough damage.  The idea was to be able to automatically send emotes/feels back to the client to help people to roleplay injuries more realistically.  ("You feel your side throb dizzingly around your bruised rib.")

This is all based on my status panel code, though, which people didn't really seem to be interested in, so I don't know if anyone beside me would benefit from me finishing the wound add-on.




Edited to fix the echo.  Not really sure if that's an appropriate use of "feel", but I don't know what else would work.

How much Karma do you want because I would love you if you did this.

[Lizzie]

So far I still like my idea better (and had been thinking about it for a couple years but it didn't seem worthwhile to bring it up til now).

Fight-or-flight adrenaline rush long enough to "flee" or move a couple rooms away, followed by movement delay for an injury-specific time period. This wouldn't affect riding, since the mount isn't injured - just the person riding it. But if he has to follow a crew on foot, he'll lag behind and struggle to keep up.

[AdamBlue]

This is both and bad idea, if you have physicians become important.

Good idea: Physicians become super useful to have around!
Wounds can be made more obvious which leads to moments of fear/badassery!
Wounds could leave some SWEET scars!

Bad Idea:
No Physicians around!
Whoops, got hit hard in sparring, now I have to miss that RPT I've been waiting for!
I sure do love waiting around doing absolutely nothing while this wound heals!
An enemy got a lucky crit on me, and now I'm gimped for two hours!

[Marauder Moe]

Mostly I like the idea, but I'm not sure we really want/need it.

My biggest worry is how battle RPTs are currently handled.  It would suck to be held up for lack of a medic or worse, having to quit the field due to too many injuries.

I do like the idea of a stool/system that tracks injuries but doesn't impose coded penalties as good a place to start/compromise, though.

[Case]

Mostly I like the idea, but I'm not sure we really want/need it.

My biggest worry is how battle RPTs are currently handled.  It would suck to be held up for lack of a medic or worse, having to quit the field due to too many injuries.

I do like the idea of a stool/system that tracks injuries but doesn't impose coded penalties as good a place to start/compromise, though.

It's not like people should be sleeping in bursts in order to continue on in those RPTs either, being fair.

[Marauder Moe]

True.  It's a tricky balance.

[lostinspace]

I voted no. I've seen characters take near deadly wounds and just sleep  them off and play it off as nothing, and I've seen the other end of the extreme, where a player is out for the better part of an IG month.
I think it's up to the player to decide how grievous their wounds are short of death and roleplay appropriately. Not all characters or injuries are created equally, and I wouldn't want to see people just not logging
in because their character is effectively useless.

[BadSkeelz]

I can just imagine how much a newbie is going to want to play Arm after his newly-aba'd Bynner is KOed by Stumpsface FightFocus the fighty dwarf, and his first PC is sidelined for hours.

[Riev]

I can just imagine how much a newbie is going to want to play Arm after his newly-aba'd Bynner is KOed by Stumpsface FightFocus the fighty dwarf, and his first PC is sidelined for hours.

I mean. Really. You'd think you could just go to the already-in-game Byn doctors and have them work on your wounds. YET ANOTHER REASON TO BE CLANNED: DOCTORS.

[Marauder Moe]

FWIW, as a combat clan member/leader I would always sideline a character who took a beating like that in sparring anyway.  It's a good teaching moment for newbies.

[Desertman]

FWIW, as a combat clan member/leader I would always sideline a character who took a beating like that in sparring anyway.  It's a good teaching moment for newbies.

+1

Also have done and will continue to do this. Ordered more than one person to "light duty" for a bit.

[nauta]

Would the proposal still be the same -- and would those on the fence or against it be sated -- if we had it so that sleep worked as a magickal fix, just as it does now?

o Sleep will still work the same, and you will be fully, and magickally, healed by sleeping it off, as it is now.  (Sleep comes with its own risks in the field, so finding a physician or having one handy would be the better thing to do.)

o Since sleep works the same way, you can pretend the Byn doctor is patching you up, just like you do now.  (Or, alternatively, put a physician in the clans who you could order to patch you up.)

The core proposal would be to give physicians something other to do than bandage, and to have different kinds of wounds other than quantitative hp loss, e.g., movement sinks, loss of agility, and so on, as OP describes it.

(I also think Lizzie's adrenaline idea is pretty neat.)

[BadSkeelz]

No. Now you just make the whole of the injury code superfluous and unnecessary.

People can RP being wounded or crippled just fine on their own. If you could sleep away such status, the same people who ignore that 50HP hit now would just quickly sleep to get rid of its effects.

You're just adding a bunch of onerous code.

[nauta]

No. Now you just make the whole of the injury code superfluous and unnecessary.

People can RP being wounded or crippled just fine on their own. If you could sleep away such status, the same people who ignore that 50HP hit now would just quickly sleep to get rid of its effects.

You're just adding a bunch of onerous code.

Maybe two sleeps?   

[hyzhenhok]

The games should adopt dwarf fortress's wounding system. No more numbers for HP at all--let's use entirely qualitative tags and track each body part separately, complete with severability.

[Case]

No. Now you just make the whole of the injury code superfluous and unnecessary.

People can RP being wounded or crippled just fine on their own. If you could sleep away such status, the same people who ignore that 50HP hit now would just quickly sleep to get rid of its effects.

You're just adding a bunch of onerous code.

So don't treat them with sleep.

Create a market for magickal and mundane healing.

[BadSkeelz]

And when you're out of the mundane healing items? Or there's no physicians online? You're just coding a hassle for people.

[nauta]

What if it were three (3) sleeps?  But that's my last offer.

[Case]

And when you're out of the mundane healing items? Or there's no physicians online? You're just coding a hassle for people.

Then we can remove hunger and thirst too? Or costs in shops? Difficulty or bad outcomes are actually ok to have in a game if you're unprepared with a situation or do risky things. Making characters variantly useful is important and code to help create or encourage reliance on others can only be a good thing in an RPI mud.

[BadSkeelz]

Getting hurt already has a bad outcome: you lose HP. If you lose enough where you can't regen, you either have to sleep (which, while twinky, at least leaves you vulnerable) or get bandaged. You can also get healed by a magicker too but who wants to do that.

What if it were three (3) sleeps?  But that's my last offer.

Would still rather the purchasable scars add weight and maybe remove HP from your cap, so players can RP this as much as they want without some shit code determining it.

[QuillDipper]

I played a character who got busted up for a while. It was a lot of fun. Though to be frank, the idea of a coded detriment hitting my character for it would've resulted in a quick store.

I mean yeah if you hit 20hp you should have to work that shit off in emotes about the doctors and the ect, but I'm uncomfortable leaving this in the hands of the machine. Because to it, getting beaten to 20hp from a wooden training sword is no different than with a massive battleaxe. If you want to argue that even in a sparring scenario you're taking lasting damage, be my guest, but it seems silly to me that some raider's cleaving strikes or an animals jaw could equal your best friend trying to help you with your sword technique. It's too case by case. Alternatives can exist in lieu of 'proper' roleplay but I feel like, instead of hearing excuses about how you healed up fast from that one fight you had, you'd be getting a lot more about your entire clan being too busted up by blunt swords to go on the RPT ride.

[Saellyn]

Getting hurt already has a bad outcome: you lose HP. If you lose enough where you can't regen, you either have to sleep (which, while twinky, at least leaves you vulnerable) or get bandaged. You can also get healed by a magicker too but who wants to do that.

What if it were three (3) sleeps?  But that's my last offer.

Would still rather the purchasable scars add weight and maybe remove HP from your cap, so players can RP this as much as they want without some shit code determining it.

If they did that I'm fairly sure nobody AT ALL would buy scars.

[SixFifty]

What I'd like - is if serious injuries resulted in an extended (doubled) movement delay.

If you had a grievous wound - no matter where or why - there's no way in hell it makes any sense to be able to walk or run at the usual pace once the adrenaline rush wears off.

So for serious wounds, and below 50% hp loss, the code would wait til after "flee" or after 2 rooms of movement occurs, then flag on a double-delay time for a RL hour.

This ^^^^

That sounds about right to me, with maybe smaller %'s of penalties for falling below 50% health, 10% health, ect. I don't think they should be that high, really.

[RogueGunslinger]

A bunch of smart stuff...

I agree with everything Quill said.

What I'd like - is if serious injuries resulted in an extended (doubled) movement delay.

If you had a grievous wound - no matter where or why - there's no way in hell it makes any sense to be able to walk or run at the usual pace once the adrenaline rush wears off.

So for serious wounds, and below 50% hp loss, the code would wait til after "flee" or after 2 rooms of movement occurs, then flag on a double-delay time for a RL hour.

This ^^^^

That sounds about right to me, with maybe smaller %'s of penalties for falling below 50% health, 10% health, ect. I don't think they should be that high, really.

This sort of thing is much more appetizing to me.

[Dresan]

I've always felt that after a certain point you shouldn't be able to heal without seeing a physician. Not just sleeping.

60-40% would still require sleep to regen. Anything under 40% requires help. Either you are able to bandage yourself, or you need to find someone who can. Every hub of civilization would have a room/shop with an NPC who could bandage you for a fee, boosting you up to the point where you can sleep/heal again.
 

[James de Monet]

How much Karma do you want because I would love you if you did this.

That depends...how much karma do you need to play a magickally sentient sparring dummy with master backstab?  

I actually did a bit of the legwork for it previously (like creating a routine to grep my logs for key damage phrases and collate them, and writing the regex to identify those phases in the client scroll and parse them for type and severity).  There are still some hurdles, but it's coming along, albeit slowly.

[Vwest]

If they did that I'm fairly sure nobody AT ALL would buy scars.

I wouldn't.

Ever.

[CodeMaster]

It'd be interesting sleep no longer brought you back to full health once you were below 55%.

And instead there were objects like crutches and splints that gave you -30 hp.  By equipping enough of these you could decrease your max HP, which you could use to prop yourself above 55%.

[theebie]

Mostly I like the idea, but I'm not sure we really want/need it.

My biggest worry is how battle RPTs are currently handled.  It would suck to be held up for lack of a medic or worse, having to quit the field due to too many injuries.

I do like the idea of a stool/system that tracks injuries but doesn't impose coded penalties as good a place to start/compromise, though.

Well, if your group gets beat up so badly that everybody is wounded, I would -WANT- everybody to get held up by a lack of medics ? And have the mission failed ? Since everybody's freaking wounded ?

[RogueGunslinger]

Mostly I like the idea, but I'm not sure we really want/need it.

My biggest worry is how battle RPTs are currently handled.  It would suck to be held up for lack of a medic or worse, having to quit the field due to too many injuries.

I do like the idea of a stool/system that tracks injuries but doesn't impose coded penalties as good a place to start/compromise, though.

Well, if your group gets beat up so badly that everybody is wounded, I would -WANT- everybody to get held up by a lack of medics ? And have the mission failed ? Since everybody's freaking wounded ?

When I see posts like this I wonder if you even play the game. If it were like you're suggesting, nothing would ever happen. Sergeants would be too busy trying to skill their underlings up in order to handle the mission, only to have them then die/store/suicide before the mission even comes around. Turnover in this game is about 3 real life weeks. That's how long you should expect to keep the average recruit alive. It takes more than 3 RL weeks to get someone trained to where they're competent enough not to be wounded on every single mission.


edit: For instance, I had a warrior who I gave skill bumps to, and ended up with 5days played. 5 days played warrior. Should be pretty fucking tough, right? He got hit by a scrab with the double-attack. Both vicious pinches to the neck, and then one more to the body. I had to flee from a goddamn scrab. At this point scrabs were lucky to even get a single hit on me, but freak shit happens. I was suddenly at about 70/110 hp. Now, this is high enough to regen. But, this was a fucking scrab, and I was a 5 day warrior who STARTED OUT with skill bumps. Now imagine your unit full of noob Rangers who you need to train up for a hunting mission... Imagine all the damn wounds you would get from the training itself.

[Brytta Léofa]

Detailed, long-lasting injuries would be great in a game in which life-endangering combat was rare, and safe-yet-efficacious long-term training was the norm.

Arm is not that game.

[Hauwke]

I find that 5 days played can realistically be fairly tough. I mean I have had someone with less hold their own against people with far more time. (Or at least I assume they had more time)

[RogueGunslinger]

I find that 5 days played can realistically be fairly tough. I mean I have had someone with less hold their own against people with far more time. (Or at least I assume they had more time)

What do you mean?

[theebie]

Mostly I like the idea, but I'm not sure we really want/need it.

My biggest worry is how battle RPTs are currently handled.  It would suck to be held up for lack of a medic or worse, having to quit the field due to too many injuries.

I do like the idea of a stool/system that tracks injuries but doesn't impose coded penalties as good a place to start/compromise, though.

Well, if your group gets beat up so badly that everybody is wounded, I would -WANT- everybody to get held up by a lack of medics ? And have the mission failed ? Since everybody's freaking wounded ?

When I see posts like this I wonder if you even play the game. If it were like you're suggesting, nothing would ever happen. Sergeants would be too busy trying to skill their underlings up in order to handle the mission, only to have them then die/store/suicide before the mission even comes around. Turnover in this game is about 3 real life weeks. That's how long you should expect to keep the average recruit alive. It takes more than 3 RL weeks to get someone trained to where they're competent enough not to be wounded on every single mission.


edit: For instance, I had a warrior who I gave skill bumps to, and ended up with 5days played. 5 days played warrior. Should be pretty fucking tough, right? He got hit by a scrab with the double-attack. Both vicious pinches to the neck, and then one more to the body. I had to flee from a goddamn scrab. At this point scrabs were lucky to even get a single hit on me, but freak shit happens. I was suddenly at about 70/110 hp. Now, this is high enough to regen. But, this was a fucking scrab, and I was a 5 day warrior who STARTED OUT with skill bumps. Now imagine your unit full of noob Rangers who you need to train up for a hunting mission... Imagine all the damn wounds you would get from the training itself.

I'm not sure if we play the same game, I must admit. What makes you think the average turnover in this game is 3 real life weeks ? My average character lasts like a real life year on average ? (And yes, combat pcs). And even with new chars I kinda never get into situations where I get chopped down to <55% health ?
If you get hit twice with vicious pinches to the neck, you're a fucking wreck and can be happy if you get out of the situation alife ? And yes, then you should be badly wounded ? Beyond the point of "sleeping it off" ? Which is the whole idea of this thread ?

I imagine a unit of full noob rangers who need to get out for a hunting mission. They better have a capable Sergeant around them then, to keep them safe ?

I mean, loads people here say "This is a hack and slash mud, deal with it". I can say "Fine, I'll treat it as hack and slash". Actually not that much of a problem for me. I just thought it ain't hack and slash.

best regards,
Theebie

[Lizzie]

I've never heard anyone say this is a hack-n-slash game. I have heard people say this is a DIKU game. This game utilizes a hack-n-slash game code. But the code doesn't define the play, it only defines the inner workings of the game mechanics themselves.

[theebie]

I've never heard anyone say this is a hack-n-slash game. I have heard people say this is a DIKU game. This game utilizes a hack-n-slash game code. But the code doesn't define the play, it only defines the inner workings of the game mechanics themselves.

Then let me just quote from this very thread:

I'd be all for this if we weren't running a hack and slash engine that sees all combatants getting severely hacked and slashed on a regular basis.  As it is, I'm skeptical, for reasons mentioned above.

[Lizzie]

I've never heard anyone say this is a hack-n-slash game. I have heard people say this is a DIKU game. This game utilizes a hack-n-slash game code. But the code doesn't define the play, it only defines the inner workings of the game mechanics themselves.

Then let me just quote from this very thread:

I'd be all for this if we weren't running a hack and slash engine that sees all combatants getting severely hacked and slashed on a regular basis.  As it is, I'm skeptical, for reasons mentioned above.

1) Erythil isn't loads of people.
2) It IS a hack-n-slash engine. I already said that, using different vernacular. DIKU = hack-n-slash engine. Again - the engine only defines the inner workings of the mechanics; it does not define the game play.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, if your group gets beat up so badly that everybody is wounded, I would -WANT- everybody to get held up by a lack of medics ? And have the mission failed ? Since everybody's freaking wounded ?

That may be the more realistic outcome, but it's not the better story outcome.

[RogueGunslinger]

When I see posts like this I wonder if you even play the game. If it were like you're suggesting, nothing would ever happen. Sergeants would be too busy trying to skill their underlings up in order to handle the mission, only to have them then die/store/suicide before the mission even comes around. Turnover in this game is about 3 real life weeks. That's how long you should expect to keep the average recruit alive. It takes more than 3 RL weeks to get someone trained to where they're competent enough not to be wounded on every single mission.


edit: For instance, I had a warrior who I gave skill bumps to, and ended up with 5days played. 5 days played warrior. Should be pretty fucking tough, right? He got hit by a scrab with the double-attack. Both vicious pinches to the neck, and then one more to the body. I had to flee from a goddamn scrab. At this point scrabs were lucky to even get a single hit on me, but freak shit happens. I was suddenly at about 70/110 hp. Now, this is high enough to regen. But, this was a fucking scrab, and I was a 5 day warrior who STARTED OUT with skill bumps. Now imagine your unit full of noob Rangers who you need to train up for a hunting mission... Imagine all the damn wounds you would get from the training itself.

I'm not sure if we play the same game, I must admit. What makes you think the average turnover in this game is 3 real life weeks ? My average character lasts like a real life year on average ? (And yes, combat pcs). And even with new chars I kinda never get into situations where I get chopped down to <55% health ?

Average turn-around has been stated by staff before. I'm having trouble finding it through searches though. Either way, your average is not the player average. The fact that we get something like 30-50 new characters a week, should show that turnover is pretty damn high.

Those numbers you can get from the weekly update: http://www.armageddon.org/updates/

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think anyone is saying "This is a hack and slash MUD."

Some of us have been saying "The combat code is too severe to justify adding on more penalties for being injured."

I've been dropped 60 HP in 2 rounds of sparring hall combat; I've taken 50 HP of damage from a single monster bite. I Roleplayed out injuries and had fun doing so, but I would not want the machine arbitrarily enforcing how debilitated my PC was.

Do you even play combat PCs theebie?

[Hauwke]

I find that 5 days played can realistically be fairly tough. I mean I have had someone with less hold their own against people with far more time. (Or at least I assume they had more time)

What do you mean?

Well what I mean is that depending on a few things, your 5 day warrior can be a bonafied badass. For example a long time ago I had a dorf pc. Went out grebbing, got attacked by a scrab, then another and a gith and came out hurt but definately on top. With from memory only half a day played.

[Saellyn]

Dwarves aren't a very good judge of being a badass. They have some innate benefits (massive strength compared to most people) that give them a perceived edge in battle.

Also, not all mobs are created equal. You may have lucked out with some weak scrab/gith. That does happen.