Weapon Types and Their Uses

[Hauwke]

Thats not a knife, THIS is a knife

[BadSkeelz]

... Wait, why are we making knife weapons start instantly? Do they suck or something xD?

With a whimsical smile, the muscular, blond-haired man says, in Australian-accented english: "What, you call that a knife? /This/, is a knife!"

>look muscular

<primary hand> a large stone spoon

[Ender]

... Wait, why are we making knife weapons start instantly? Do they suck or something xD?

With a whimsical smile, the muscular, blond-haired man says, in Australian-accented english: "What, you call that a knife? /This/, is a knife!"

>look muscular

<primary hand> a large stone spoon

Commissioned drawing of that character:

[Riev]

A pike was definitely not just used against cavalry, but it could certainly be argued that an individual fighting with a pike by himself is pretty weird, yeah.

UNLESS YOU'RE GUAN YU

*strokes beard*

Done it. Didn't feel like Guan Yu when I Master Twohanded + low Jman pike'd a water elemental and the damage bounced. Decided to cry IRL for a while.

[solera]

A pike is just a long pointy stick?

This is what Guan Yu would have used, I imagine.

Code Select Expand


A gleaming steel blade, curved like that of a scimitar, extends from the end

of this long, baobab staff.  It appears wickedly sharp, both edges ground to

a keen cutting edge.  The wood body of the staff is thick and smooth, working

its way from the bladed end down toward the other at which point it flares

outwards into a heavy, bulbous head that is obviously intended for striking

blows.  The entirety of the staff is a deep, lustrous black in color; its

uniformity broken only by a repeating abstract motif of the moon of Jihae

and a symbol of the sun, Suk-krath.  Four red tassels, tied on just below

the point where steel blade meets baobab body, flow fluidly with any motion

of the staff.

[Jihelu]

>HItting something magic

>Dealing damage

Pick one

[BadSkeelz]

>Dealing damage

Fuck magick.

[Hauwke]

Guan yu didnt use a pike. He used a halberd (according to wiki its confusing as to what he used but more than likely he would have used a halberd it says)

[Tuannon]

Dian Wei used a halberd in each hand. I think he wins on that score.

[Hauwke]

Well to be fair... If you can swing stuff in one arm why not double up and swing two? Dude had the right idea and would have owned. Except for you know... Being slowly since its a halberd in each hand.

[Tisiphone]

A pike was definitely not just used against cavalry, but it could certainly be argued that an individual fighting with a pike by himself is pretty weird, yeah.

The pike, due to its unwieldy nature, was always intended to be used in a deliberate, defensive manner, often in conjunction with other missile and melee weapons. However, better-trained troops were capable of using the pike in an aggressive attack with each rank of pikemen being trained to hold their pikes so that they presented enemy infantry with four or five layers of spearheads bristling from the front of the formation.

As long as it kept good order, such a formation could roll right over enemy infantry but it did have weaknesses.
...
Medieval pike formations tended to have better success when they operated in an aggressive fashion. The Scots at the Battle of Stirling Bridge (1297), for example, utilized the momentum of their charge to overrun an English army while the Englishmen were crossing a narrow bridge. At the Battle of Laupen (1339), Bernese pikemen overwhelmed the infantry forces of the opposing Habsburg/Burgundian army with a massive charge before wheeling over to strike and rout the Austro-Burgundian horsemen as well. At the same time however such aggressive action required considerable tactical cohesiveness or suitable terrain to protect the vulnerable flanks of the pike formations especially from the attack of mounted man-at-arms, when these features not available Medieval militia pikes often suffered costly failures such as at Battles of Mons-en-Pevele (1304), Cassel (1328), Roosebeke (1382) and Othee (1408). The constant success of the Swiss mercenaries in the later period was attributed to their extreme discipline and tactical unity due to semi-professional nature, allowing a pike block to somewhat alleviate the threat presented by flanking attacks.

A pike is just a long pointy stick?

A pike is a pole weapon, a very long thrusting spear formerly used extensively by infantry.
...
Generally, a spear becomes a pike when it is too long to be wielded with one hand in combat.
...
The pike was a long weapon, varying considerably in size, from 3 to 7.5 metres (10 to 25 feet) long. It was approximately 2.5–6 kg (5.5–13.2 lb) in weight, with sixteenth-century military writer Sir John Smythe recommending lighter rather than heavier pikes.
...
It is a common mistake to refer to a bladed polearm as a pike; such weapons are more generally halberds, glaives or voulges.

Pikes are a formation weapon, effective against anything stupid enough to take them head on.

For Zalanthan battles, especially those fought by PCs, they make little sense. But "An allanaki unit of pikemen" fighting "A Legion unit of pikemen" on the burning plains of Tyn Dashra, that I could see.

If you want to make a "pike" for a PC, I guess you could give them a spontoon.

Although primarily a military weapon, the pike could be surprisingly effective in single combat and a number of 16th-century sources explain how it was to be used in a dueling situation; fencers of the time often practiced with and competed against each other with long staves in place of pikes. George Silver considered the 18 ft pike one of the more advantageous weapons for single combat in the open, giving it odds over all weapons shorter than 8 ft or the sword and dagger/shield combination.

I have found guides on using pikes in single combat before.  It sounds like it requires a level of technique that wouldn't be immediately apparent to someone lacking experience with them.  Not that I'm disagreeing with anything being said.  But generally that's what separates (most of) the advanced weapon types from the regular ones - it's more difficult to make good use of them in combat against someone using a more traditional weapon type like a sword or an axe.

George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense

[In Dreams]

18 feet?

Something that was 18 feet long would take a loootttt of strength to even be able to balance oneself with. That would be pretty interesting to watch!

[Tisiphone]

Knife weapons in this case would refer to small blades with a cutting edge.  I've thought about reclassifying existing knives (excluding skinning knives) under this category for the sake of consistency.  Though I can think of just as many arguments for this as I can against it.

Would this entail getting rid of stabbing and razor* weapons because they both fit under category of knives? Please say yes.


*Unless by razor weapons you literally mean weapons shaped like a straight razor. To which I say, that niche is mindbogglingly small, and also really stupid to bring into actual combat.

[nauta]

Knife weapons in this case would refer to small blades with a cutting edge.  I've thought about reclassifying existing knives (excluding skinning knives) under this category for the sake of consistency.  Though I can think of just as many arguments for this as I can against it.

Would this entail getting rid of stabbing and razor* weapons because they both fit under category of knives? Please say yes.


*Unless by razor weapons you literally mean weapons shaped like a straight razor. To which I say, that niche is mindbogglingly small, and also really stupid to bring into actual combat.

I thiiink razor weapons are those featured in (5) in the picture:



See this.

So, yeah, based on that picture, it looks like razor competency would be equivalent to stabbing/knife competency (at least for the sake of playability, martial arts nitpicketting be damned).

(Speaking of razors: whips!  Are they slashing weapons?  FWIW every whip I've looked at in game has not revealed what weapon type it might be.)

[Saellyn]

There is a whip that is a slashing type. Not sure about any others?

[RogueGunslinger]

I would love if slashing branched whip-weapons.

[BadSkeelz]

George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense

Ah hah, that's that Manual I referred to earlier (or maybe in the other thread).

I haven't read the whole thing, but the author seems to favor the half pike over the full length version (the "Morris Pike"). This passage seems rather telling,

The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike.

The long staff, morris pike, or javelin, or such like weapons above the perfect length, have advantage against all manner of weapons, the short staff, the Welch hook, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of vantage excepted, yet are too weak for two swords and daggers or two sword and bucklers, or two rapiers and poniards with gauntlets, because they are too long to thrust, strike, and turn speedily. And by reason of the large distance, one of the sword and dagger-men will get behind him.

9foot halfpike good, 18foot morris pike not so good.

I'd be fine seeing more half-pikes in the game, though how you would distinguish them from spears may be tricky.

[Saellyn]

They're still -pikes-, so.

[Tisiphone]

I'd argue that the half-pike is 'actually a spear' based on the general distinction that pikes are spears long enough that one-handed use is impractical, and are simply called half-pikes due to being derived by cutting pikes down, rather than lengthening spears. (Note that I'm not making hard and fast claims about how we use the words in real life; that would be silly. I'm simply talking about slotting them into the 'pike' or 'piercing' weapons slot for Armageddon.)

I'd also argue that while yes, the 18ft pike has disadvantage against certain weapons according to Mr Silver, he nevertheless admits it does have use in single or small-unit combats. Which is to say, he wouldn't choose it out of all possible weapons, but he would choose it over some.

How to reflect those disadvantages and advantages in Armageddon? Hmm, sounds like a complete combat overhaul, which is outside the scope of this thread (or indeed, the realm of plausibility).

[BadSkeelz]

I'd argue that the half-pike is 'actually a spear' based on the general distinction that pikes are spears long enough that one-handed use is impractical, and are simply called half-pikes due to being derived by cutting pikes down, rather than lengthening spears. (Note that I'm not making hard and fast claims about how we use the words in real life; that would be silly. I'm simply talking about slotting them into the 'pike' or 'piercing' weapons slot for Armageddon.)

I get you on the words. That's the problem with the advanced weapon skills and designing items for them - it's very difficult to think of their damage as really different from the basic ones. That's why I like to think of the skills being more technique based - a pike user is adept with managing a very long weapon, or being able to use a "Shorter" weapon (i.e. a 9ft halfpike) in closer quarters by utilizing both shaft and stabbing head for the attack. A trident user can stick you with all the points of his weapon and not have it get stuck in the foe. A polearm user can chop, bludgeon, and thrust all with the same (normally unwieldy) weapon. The echoes we get of being "poked" don't need to be taken literally. (Especially poke.)

Edit: I guess I would define an advanced weapon in Armageddon as "A weapon that requires specialized technique in order to use to its full efficiency." The "advanced weapon skills" would be those techniques.



I'm not sure a half-pike is used like a spear (i.e. totally for thrusting), at least according to Silver. Silver certainly seems to think that thrusting it the weaker attack compared to the "blow." If I was to design a half-pike for Armageddon, I would make it a very strong staff with a thrusting head. It would be bludgeoning and a pike, so an inexperienced user could make do by just beating someone with it. An expert could use it as a pike and roleplay attacking with both head and shaft.

How to reflect those disadvantages and advantages in Armageddon? Hmm, sounds like a complete combat overhaul, which is outside the scope of this thread (or indeed, the realm of plausibility).

Pikes could have a lower chance to parry. I'd like to  see the largest of them unusable in certain rooms (i.e. enclosed spaces). They could also be disadvantaged against smaller, quicker targets with bonuses against larger ones. I would take a few guys with pikes to go hunt beetles or mekillot. I wouldn't take them to go hunt jozhals.

[Taijan]

Would this entail getting rid of stabbing and razor* weapons because they both fit under category of knives? Please say yes.

*Unless by razor weapons you literally mean weapons shaped like a straight razor. To which I say, that niche is mindbogglingly small, and also really stupid to bring into actual combat.

I'd like to try and avoid removing things wherever possible. But these - like the larger advanced types - have several overlaps that can make classifying them difficult.  Technique is a good method of differentiation, as well as design.

What I've kinda settled on is:
Stabbing - the weapon was designed with a narrow tip to make it well suited for thrusting, but also has sharp edges so it can cut well. But, due to balance or design, it wasn't made to be swung. Either the swings won't have enough force behind them, or the blade would be more likely to break under stress if used that way.

Knives- designed with cutting in mind. Has a sharp edge and can have a sharp tip too, but the shape of the blade doesn't make it as suitable for stabbing.  It slices, it dices, it cuts down to the bone. But you're not going to be chopping off limbs with it (without trouble).

Razors - extremely sharp and made almost exclusively for cutting through flesh or lighter armor. It includes straight razor type objects, which are undeniably dangerous but not as well suited for combat without some serious skill.  Since that's a pretty narrow definition, I'd extend it to weapons designed to cut deep and really tear flesh to make something bleed a whole lot.  Claw-type weapons would work for this. Maybe a weaponized gut hook.  Or even a sword-sized weapon that needs to be used a particular way to be effective.

[palomar]

Would this entail getting rid of stabbing and razor* weapons because they both fit under category of knives? Please say yes.

*Unless by razor weapons you literally mean weapons shaped like a straight razor. To which I say, that niche is mindbogglingly small, and also really stupid to bring into actual combat.

I'd like to try and avoid removing things wherever possible. But these - like the larger advanced types - have several overlaps that can make classifying them difficult.  Technique is a good method of differentiation, as well as design.

What I've kinda settled on is:
Stabbing - the weapon was designed with a narrow tip to make it well suited for thrusting, but also has sharp edges so it can cut well. But, due to balance or design, it wasn't made to be swung. Either the swings won't have enough force behind them, or the blade would be more likely to break under stress if used that way.

Knives- designed with cutting in mind. Has a sharp edge and can have a sharp tip too, but the shape of the blade doesn't make it as suitable for stabbing.  It slices, it dices, it cuts down to the bone. But you're not going to be chopping off limbs with it (without trouble).

Razors - extremely sharp and made almost exclusively for cutting through flesh or lighter armor. It includes straight razor type objects, which are undeniably dangerous but not as well suited for combat without some serious skill.  Since that's a pretty narrow definition, I'd extend it to weapons designed to cut deep and really tear flesh to make something bleed a whole lot.  Claw-type weapons would work for this. Maybe a weaponized gut hook.  Or even a sword-sized weapon that needs to be used a particular way to be effective.

I don't know what they are classified as, but there used to be bolines and urus that might have been razor type weapons. I figure hand scythes could be a thing too, razorwise? Seems more tribal than Salarri style, however, in regards to the submissions call.

Edited to add: Also, even though they are throwing weapons, maybe chakrams and chatkchas would fall under these weapon categories too.

[Jihelu]

I'm 82% sure half pikes are polearms.

[BadSkeelz]

Why pikes branch from bludgeoning at all continues to stump me.

[RogueGunslinger]

Why pikes branch from bludgeoning at all continues to stump me.

Pie in the sky dream:

Bludgeoning should branch all new skills:
              Hand-weapons (cestus, bone knuckles,)
              Flail-weapons.

Flails would be slow and do bigger damage to stun with chances of knocking your opponent to sitting
Hand-weapons would be fast stun weapons equivalent to knife-weapons..


Chopping should also get a new weapons skill:
          Pole-arms
          Double-bladed staffs.

Double bladed staffs would do less damage than pole-arms, but give extra attacks per round, equivalent to dual-wield.


Piercing should branch Pikes and Tridents.

Slashing should branch Whips and Razors.

And finally, Knife-Weapons should be a starting weapons skill for pickpockets, assassins and warriors.