Quitting

[nauta]

So as to avoid derailing a thread, there's been discussion now and then about Quit, Quic OOC, Wilderness Quit: about quitting.

As someone newish to MUDs, I'm curious what the arguments or reasons are for disallowing 'Quit Everywhere'.  Is there some room for abuse?  Would it create weird situations (quitting out where a raptor group spawns)?  Does having limited Quit rooms create exciting RP scenarios?  Is there some code reason?

I'm not being very imaginative, I guess, and I can't think of anything right now.  The closest thing I could think of would be something like:

Danger.  Having limited quit rooms creates that feeling of danger -- if you are in the wilds, you have to get somewhere safe before you can quit out.

But, in response, that feels more like an artifact from the hack-and-slash origins of Diku...

Anyway...

I guess my proposal would be something like this:

"You may quit anywhere, but please try to do so (a) in rooms where it makes sense (bars, apartments, etc.) and (b) where your quitting out (or logging back into that spot) doesn't cause a huge deal of suspension of disbelief to other players.  In the past, this has caused some abuse, such as X and Y.  Please don't do that."

ETA: Just to pitch in with some positives for Quit Everywhere, the most obvious is that it makes playing the game easier for people with busy schedules, or people who have children, or distractions.

[Quell]

I've always thought it would be better to flip things and have "No-Quit" rooms or areas, whereas the default was that you could quit most places.

So for dangerous areas without any nooks or crannies to wedge yourself into would be flagged no-quit (Salt Flats, parts of the Red, Scoria Plains, etc..) and everywhere else would be quitable.

The one problem I foresee is that Quit Rooms tend to be gathering spots in cities. If you take them out and let people quit everywhere, they'll be less prone to gathering in certain areas.

[RogueGunslinger]

Quitting is entirely OOC. It should have no effect on your character, and your character should not have to struggle just so you can quit the game.

Make quit OOC repeatable. Log all quit-ooc's. Deal with the people who abuse it, don't punish everyone else.

[nauta]

The one problem I foresee is that Quit Rooms tend to be gathering spots in cities. If you take them out and let people quit everywhere, they'll be less prone to gathering in certain areas.

I can see that, and it made me think of something, a reason for multiplying them outside the cities: at present, there are very few quit spots outside the city, and so all the rogues, raiders, and vigilantes know these few spots.

[Marauder Moe]

Outdoor quitting represents the IC ability to survive alone in the wilderness indefinitely.

[RogueGunslinger]

Outdoor quitting represents the IC ability to survive alone in the wilderness indefinitely.

That might make sense if quit ooc wasn't already a thing. When I quit outside the gates my PC isn't surviving out there, he went back home. When I log back in out there it's just because he's on yet another trip outside the gates.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't believe that is/was the intent of the ability.  We are disagreeing.


That said, I do support wilderness quit subguilds (namely those with forage food) as well as several of the elementalists (and I suppose sorcerers) getting it too, at least after branching certain spells.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm just not sure what point we're disagreeing on though. The intent of the wilderness quit ability is steeped in a 20 year old skill list developed with very little roleplay in mind. The times have changed. You're basically arguing against quit OOC being a thing. But it already is.

[Harmless]

Quit OOC was an amazing addition to the game, and the limitation that you can only use it once before needing to use a regular quit room has NEVER been a problem for me.

When I quit OOC, I make a mental note to myself to only log in if I know I have time to get to the next safe spot. That isn't hard to plan for, just don't log in unless I know I can do that, but the problem is sometimes I FORGET that I had quit OOC and when I come in for a brief check.. I feel screwed, quick.

The solution is likely to remind the player with a short message after logging in to their account that they have used quit ooc and may not use it again until going to a regular quit room.

Once that's been added, no more forgetting what I had done and not being able to plan for it.

Edited to add: are tents quit-safe rooms? Or just save rooms? If not, I think they really should be quittable, if possible.

[Delirium]

I've always thought it would be better to flip things and have "No-Quit" rooms or areas, whereas the default was that you could quit most places.

So for dangerous areas without any nooks or crannies to wedge yourself into would be flagged no-quit

If we must keep limited quit, I really like this idea.

[Delirium]

just don't log in unless I know I can do that [safely quit the game]

You've just said it was never a problem for you yet you illustrated exactly why it becomes a problem

For people with limited playtimes, you either have to play a ranger or simply never roam far from a quit room, and that gets old quick.

Just let people quit anywhere. If they're using quit to abuse situations (avoid consequences, etc), address that, rather than make everyone suffer.

[nauta]

... just don't log in unless I know I can do [quit safely]...

That's kind of the point. 

Edited to add: are tents quit-safe rooms? Or just save rooms? If not, I think they really should be quittable, if possible.

Tent Helpfile the notes: 'no'.

In the back of my head, I think there's a 'consolidation' argument to be had in defence of limited quit (sort of like Quell's) but I can't articulate it or see it clearly.

[Desertman]

I like Wilderness Quit how it is.

Quit OOC is for when your house catches on fire, your internet goes nuts, or you mom comes in screaming to make you go outside for the day.

I'm happy with the current situation.

[LauraMars]

I never use quit ooc...but that's because I always forget it exists.   I think its an amazing feature.  #justveteranthings

Oh, and I wish people could quit anywhere too because this is a game.

But even if they could I would probably still just walk to the Gaj.

[Harmless]

just don't log in unless I know I can do that [safely quit the game]

You've just said it was never a problem for you yet you illustrated exactly why it becomes a problem

For people with limited playtimes, you either have to play a ranger or simply never roam far from a quit room, and that gets old quick.

Just let people quit anywhere. If they're using quit to abuse situations (avoid consequences, etc), address that, rather than make everyone suffer.

The lack of ranger quit was one of the reasons why I stored my warrior outdoorsman, true story. If the current system leads to less variety in people's characters (by making all outdoorsy types roll up ranger mainguilds) then maybe the system does need revising!


How about we just make it so you have to wait 5 minutes or so (the usual quit timer) before you can quit ooc again? If the concern is quitting out right before combat, coming back in gives you a new 5 minute cooldown before you can quit oocly again. If you're in a regular quit room, you can just quit.

In a way, this solves the problem; everything becomes a quit-safe room with quit ooc, but you can only do it after being in an ICly safe situation for long enough for a new campsite or resting spot makes sense (about 5-10 RL minutes).

[nauta]

Some summaries:

1. MM suggests that one reason for having limited quit is that it allows us to give some characters a special survival skill (wilderness quit) that other characters don't have -- which he suggests might just track the capacity to forage or create food.

2. My 'danger' suggestion was partly that having limited quit allows us to have certain rooms that characters have to find for some benefit (namely, the benefit to quit).

3. Harmless implicitly at least suggests limited quit prevents people from shirking on their RP duties (e.g., prevents you from quitting out before a fight).

4. Quell suggests that limited quit forces people to congregate in certain areas (Quit rooms).



Re: 1) I'm inclined to agree with RGS's response: I've never seen the ability to quit as a skill, but as an OOC contraption and convenience (or inconvenience as the case may be).  When I quit in the wilderness, my PC isn't living out there (at least not in every case) but I've just run out of time to rush her back to the gates, and so when I log back in, I often just assume this is trek #12 into the wilderness in medias res.  If our goal is to give certain characters/guilds/subguilds a special survival skill (over and above forage food / create food), then we could talk about what that skill might look like, or perhaps make forage food/create food give more of a benefit, but even if you quit a million times in the wilds, you'll still starve or get killed by a scrab if you don't have the requisite survival skills (hunting, skinning, forage food, etc.)

Re: 2) I do like the little mini-game in exploration of 'find that quit spot', or sometimes in a PvP conflict of finding the quit room (e.g., in the rinth).  But, it does sort of feel like an automated quest, an artifact from days of old when RP wasn't the big thing.  If we want quests for things in the wild to find, perhaps use save rooms (I know I know! Code Limits!) or special resources or just our imagination (oh, this place looks like a nice place to set up camp)...  (ETA: Also this totally privileges veterans over novices, which sometimes is an OK thing.)

Re: 3) This is a classic case of punishing us all for the sins of a few.

Re: 4) Perhaps allow people to Quit and Save at quit spots... or, since it's a bit abstract, I'd maybe argue that people would still congregate at bars and interact even if there weren't a quit spot, e.g., we congregate at certain spots because they are safe, e.g., there are guards around.



ETA: Almost forgot: and Desertman likes it, but it sounds like he still lives with his mom.  (Jokes! )  But more seriously, I kind of think a lot of people are slipping into the older generation, which might put some motivation to re-evaluating it, especially if allowing for Quit Anywhere would allow more people to play more often.  Sort of a cost/benefit analysis here, so if there are more negatives to Quit Anywhere, keep them coming.  (Or if you think all my res up above are utter bunk...)

[Riev]

All non-rangers that quit in wilderness-flagged (non-city) rooms will stay at current hunger/thirst levels. Rangers, losing their "perk" of being able to quit anywhere, are now able to quit in the wilderness and slowly "regenerate" hunger and thirst levels.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Except I'm not sure that should work in certain areas where food and/or water is impossible to greb or find when your character is at starving or dehydrated levels. There's at least one or two areas in the game where this is the case.

[Delirium]

All non-rangers that quit in wilderness-flagged (non-city) rooms will stay at current hunger/thirst levels. Rangers, losing their "perk" of being able to quit anywhere, are now able to quit in the wilderness and slowly "regenerate" hunger and thirst levels.

I don't think that would fly for a number of reasons. I think rangers have enough perks - wilderness quit is really an OOC convenience more than anything.

Like someone pointed out, if your character is trying to stay in a dangerous area, quitting in/out there will have little impact on whether they survive.

Food, water, angry animals, those are all more immediate concerns.

[Malken]

It's 2015, everyone should be able to quit wherever they might be and without "lying" via a OOC QUIT method.

looooooool, as if my boss ever walked in the room and I really had to quit quickly, I don't even have a job you fools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111

[nauta]

Here's a con to the Unlimited Quit (or Quit Anywhere) for people to chew on (I give a partial analysis of it below):

Once I was a badass sneak (some details have been modified to make the point), and was tracking this one assassin into the rinth -- he was going to assassinate my boss, we were pretty sure.  So I was waying people, getting the crew together to jump this guy, and shadowing him...  we had him, and were about to bring down the pain (he was still all the while unawares) when... poof he just quit out.

Analysis:

He used 'quit ooc', so it isn't as if unlimited quit would be any more of a problem than having 'quit ooc', right? 

Well, maybe.  It was borderline enough -- I thought for sure he knew we were gathering forces and knew he had no way back out; I also had this sneaky suspicion that he was using quit to release the NPCs that were tracking him; or that he might have used quit there so he could log back in at his advantage -- that I was about to file a player complaint for clarification.  But I didn't, because, whatever. 

But the point is: he could have been abusing quit ooc, and staff would have been able to check into it if I had filed a player complaint.

Anyway, not sure if this is a case that shows that limited quit is an OK idea after all, or not -- I'm inclined to think this would happen (and, well, it did happen) even if we had limited quit, but I'm just tossing it out there as food for thought.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't see how is that any different to him walking to a quit room before you get the chance to kill him.

[nauta]

I don't see how is that any different to him walking to a quit room before you get the chance to kill him.

Quick answer to that: we'd know the quit room and would have jumped him earlier if he headed that way.

In general, the more I think about it, this case isn't really a reason not to have unlimited quit.

I guess all it highlights is that there are cases where someone might quit out and not realize that they had a gang of rinthers shadowing them whose fun they spoiled via quitting out.  But that's a pretty minor reason to keep limited quit around, and quit ooc sort of makes it a moot point.

[CodeMaster]

I think it would be nice if some subguilds got ranger quit (maybe scavenger?).  This is mostly because of the convenience to people with constraints on playtime.

But I like quit rooms because they make the OOC act of quitting coincide with IC events.

Like if someone is headed toward a busy tavern, dormitory, or warehouse, then OOCly you know they're approaching a quit room and might disappear soon, which is compatible with the IC knowledge that they're approaching somewhere safe where you can't harm them and/or can expect to lose track of them in a crowd.

More quit rooms might be nice but I've never felt the game is bereft of them at all.

[Majikal]

I think it would be nice if some subguilds got ranger quit (maybe scavenger?).  This is mostly because of the convenience to people with constraints on playtime.

Agreed

I've had playtime restraints and I'm not the kind of person to play social non-combat pc's, which means I was trapped into playing a ranger or magickal class that would allow me to just step away randomly whenever I needed it. Be that casting a spell for semi-safety while I bailed for a bit or quitting. Quit ooc has gone a long way for opening up options for players that maybe want to go on the wilderness rpt but don't have ranger quit to help them leave if it lasts too long or whatever. But having a couple of subguilds that allowed ranger quit would be amazing.

Hunter/rebel/caravan guide/nomad/scavenger all make sense imo.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

If scavenger got ranger quit we'd all be eating roots. I think nomads getting ranger quit would be badass and realistic, but they'd need to have something removed to be balanced.

[BadSkeelz]

Or, or, we add 2-3 skills to every other subguild to compensate.

[RogueGunslinger]

"balanced"

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I like adding more skills. Would make for more playable mindbenders and mages.

[Lizzie]

I think - we should focus more on helping new players learn to use "QUIT" in the actual existing quit-safe rooms, before we start giving attention to other quit options. I'm seeing characters standing idle/linkdead in those actual quit-safe rooms, or even just 2-3 rooms away. It seems there's a lot of it going on too, so it's not just one or two new players who missed the info. Perhaps the staff could add that one simple reminder at the login screen, after the MOD so that it's the first thing they see after the screen scrolls up. Something like:

Please check HELP QUIT when you're finished with this roleplaying session.
This is (is not) a "quit-safe" room.

[Jihelu]

Isn't the idea of nomads they go from one less shitty place to another, meaning they should have to go find the good places or something idfk.
Put more quit rooms seems to be the answer to that one.

[titansfan]

I haven't had issues with quit ever being annoying since the addition of gate quit areas. I would hate to have unlimited quit/save areas as people would just be able to ditch out without consequence before things hit the fan. I've had it happen multiple times already with quit ooc or rangers. Makes me sour every time and giving unlimited quit would just make it worse.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm seeing characters standing idle/linkdead in those actual quit-safe rooms, or even just 2-3 rooms away.

I have to get something in my initial biography changed so I have to remain logged in for the time that someone gets around to it. But yes it is a noticeable trend lately isn't it?

[CodeMaster]

I think - we should focus more on helping new players learn to use "QUIT" in the actual existing quit-safe rooms, before we start giving attention to other quit options. I'm seeing characters standing idle/linkdead in those actual quit-safe rooms, or even just 2-3 rooms away. It seems there's a lot of it going on too, so it's not just one or two new players who missed the info. Perhaps the staff could add that one simple reminder at the login screen, after the MOD so that it's the first thing they see after the screen scrolls up. Something like:

Please check HELP QUIT when you're finished with this roleplaying session.
This is (is not) a "quit-safe" room.

Nah, it's probably just new players checking things out and closing the window as they're not invested yet.  MOTD nags won't stop them.

[Jihelu]

I've been up at night and have thought "Well I'm tired time to sleep" Then just turned off my pc.
Oh lawdy.