Skill Progression and Starting Levels

[Armaddict]

Armaddict, you may be right, but these topics are about what makes players unhappy enough to eventually stop playing. Combat skill ups is one of the issues that some of our players have been complaining about for years. If we can change it so they don't play lizard loving hermits, or just stop making combat PCs, and give them some happiness, it is worth it, in my eyes.

And yet again...when did these 'issues' with combat skill ups actually arise?

This is not an actual problem, it's a perceived problem.  People seeing journeyman, instead of advanced, instead of master, is making people frustrated, wherein the skill itself is actually functioning very well in terms of everything -except- branching the weapon skill.

If someone goes back to the discussion thread of when that change was made, and why there were bunch of people against it, you'll note that threads and mentalities like these were actually predicted ahead of time.  However, again, the system itself is still working well.  The amount of time that it takes through 'apprentice' is pretty short, but important.  Using success and failure as a measure of how good you are, instead of being told what it is, and trying to improve it based off that information, is ultimately far more satisfying and supplemental to a roleplaying game that is designed to be played to such extremes. (i.e. 'Real' living the character, not a pen and paper d&d group)

Edited:  This is not brought up to say 'hide the skill list again', but to point out that this is a byproduct of being able to view the system at work, even though said system is still functioning well.

[Delirium]

This is a coded game. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a character who grows competent over time.

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

So your accusations of meta-gaming fall pretty flat.

[Armaddict]

This is a coded game. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a character who grows competent over time.

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

So your accusations of meta-gaming fall pretty flat.

It is indeed a coded game.  Characters do grow competent over time.  In ways they should, due to being used.

The meta-gameyness comes from the idea of 'assigning skill points', rather than there being a requirement.  I.e. Your proposed system allows someone not playing the game at all, uninvolved in clan activities, uninvolved in plots, and just generally uninvolved to come back and put them exactly where they want to.  Then say they've been in the sparring hall the entire time.  Then proceed to beat people up who have been invested in getting things going.  This is worse than the generally weak arguments for the change in the first place, in the way of my character was created three months before yours, so no matter what, it will be skilled up higher than yours.

That is the opposite effect of what lifting the starting skills was intended for.

[Inks]

I think combat skills are the only real contenders for compression here. Everything else comes with time, more or less.

My other concern is that it's just easier to grind combat skills if you're a lone hunter that can login at 1am and get some grinding done. If you're in a semi restricted clan that doesn't patrol or hunt, it's going to take you 20 times as long.

What Jingo said here. The combat skills need to go up slowly, even if you can't miss.

[BadSkeelz]

Does anyone else look at a PC using an advanced weapon skill and immediately wonder what kind of twinky shit they get up to? If so, that's a problem.

[Delirium]

This is a coded game. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a character who grows competent over time.

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

So your accusations of meta-gaming fall pretty flat.

It is indeed a coded game.  Characters do grow competent over time.  In ways they should, due to being used.

The meta-gameyness comes from the idea of 'assigning skill points', rather than there being a requirement.  I.e. Your proposed system allows someone not playing the game at all, uninvolved in clan activities, uninvolved in plots, and just generally uninvolved to come back and put them exactly where they want to.  Then say they've been in the sparring hall the entire time.  Then proceed to beat people up who have been invested in getting things going.  This is worse than the generally weak arguments for the change in the first place, in the way of my character was created three months before yours, so no matter what, it will be skilled up higher than yours.

That is the opposite effect of what lifting the starting skills was intended for.

Incorrect - it's for non-idle time logged in. It would also be a small amount, and not the same as skilling up in-game.

But it would allow aides and clanned people some recourse - those who arguably have access to better resources - to compete with independants.

[Inks]

Does anyone else look at a PC using an advanced weapon skill and immediately wonder what kind of twinky shit they get up to? If so, that's a problem.

Every time. THEY MUST BE A TWINK FOR BRANCHING!!!!1111ONE

In reality what choice do they have other than twink or never branch.

Skeelz you had a warrior pc and regular playtimes for 3 rl years. Did you branch? And if so, when?

[Armaddict]

Ahhh! I misread your post, sorry!

[Eyeball]

Uh...No? I thought we were just reminiscing. Ok then.

Ok. It sounded to me like Laura was holding up an example of a change (no mul sorcerers without karma now) which every agrees on and using it to imply that all other changes that were made must be the same. More or less implying it is foolish to even bring it up.

It wasn't my intention to attack the staff, I just listed some past changes that weren't as 100% unambiguously positive as the mul change for Laura to look at and realize there might be some value in past ideas. I did it in a sarcastic way, so I'm sorry for that. I'm sure Laura wasn't trying to attack the staff either.

[ibusoe]

Does anyone else look at a PC using an advanced weapon skill and immediately wonder what kind of twinky shit they get up to? If so, that's a problem.

It used to be much, much worse my friend.  

Because once upon a time you'd have cats running around with massive/branched weapon skills, and they'd have the gall to come on the GDB and hate on people for twinking in the exact same way that they were!

They seemed especially interested in closing loopholes right after they had passed through them.  At least now there's less expectation that you have to reach levels of awesomeness while pretending that this shit just happened naturally.  To boot, you don't have to twink the feck out of your character while publicly decrying that twinking should ever take place on our beloved game, LOL.

If you're unhappy now BadSkeelz, you should have tried the game 10 years ago.

We should make a time machine or something.

Or maybe for April Fool's day we can shut down the MUD and restore from the oldest available backup?  Total lulz

[wizturbo]

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

I would absolutely LOVE an EVE-like system for Armageddon.  Not as a replacement for going out and training skills, because that's pretty fun actually for a lot of people, but as a supplement to it.

Even something as simple as +1% to a skill of your choice every week would be fantastic.  It might not sound like much, but that's equivalent to going from (I'm guessing) advanced in a weapon skill to fully mastered in 6 months.  The key advantage is it would chug along right past any plateaus you might have, whereas conventional skill training starts to get more difficult.  While this would clearly benefit combat skills over non-combat skills, make offense and defense able to be bumped this way and you've effectively made it useful for every single class in the game.  If you don't mind training all your skills as a merchant, then dump your 1% into offense or defense to make yourself a little tougher in that (hopefully) rare combat scenario.

[Rokal]

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

I would absolutely LOVE an EVE-like system for Armageddon.  Not as a replacement for going out and training skills, because that's pretty fun actually for a lot of people, but as a supplement to it.

Even something as simple as +1% to a skill of your choice every week would be fantastic.  It might not sound like much, but that's equivalent to going from (I'm guessing) advanced in a weapon skill to fully mastered in 6 months.  The key advantage is it would chug along right past any plateaus you might have, whereas conventional skill training starts to get more difficult.  While this would clearly benefit combat skills over non-combat skills, make offense and defense able to be bumped this way and you've effectively made it useful for every single class in the game.  If you don't mind training all your skills as a merchant, then dump your 1% into offense or defense to make yourself a little tougher in that (hopefully) rare combat scenario.

If I could triple bold, underline, italistic what I did, I would.

Eve's system of training is awesome for the people who don't have tons of time to play a game.

[Eyeball]

A move toward a more EVE-like system would allow people to focus more on roleplay interaction.

I would absolutely LOVE an EVE-like system for Armageddon.  Not as a replacement for going out and training skills, because that's pretty fun actually for a lot of people, but as a supplement to it.

Even something as simple as +1% to a skill of your choice every week would be fantastic.  It might not sound like much, but that's equivalent to going from (I'm guessing) advanced in a weapon skill to fully mastered in 6 months.  The key advantage is it would chug along right past any plateaus you might have, whereas conventional skill training starts to get more difficult.  While this would clearly benefit combat skills over non-combat skills, make offense and defense able to be bumped this way and you've effectively made it useful for every single class in the game.  If you don't mind training all your skills as a merchant, then dump your 1% into offense or defense to make yourself a little tougher in that (hopefully) rare combat scenario.

My concern is that an EVE-like system encourages absenteeism. You hear stories on EVE of people who don't even play any more, they just log in now and then to set up their skill queues.

[Inks]

As a supplement to the skillup system that works for me. Would also means assassins could rp studying anatomy to train backstab instead of stabbing chaltons and rats.

Say if you log in that day +1% to your chosen skill

[Dresan]

I like the idea of an eve-like system so long as its for time spent active in game as it was suggested. And if it is only a supplement to the other ideas already address in this thread.

[wizturbo]

My concern is that an EVE-like system encourages absenteeism. You hear stories on EVE of people who don't even play any more, they just log in now and then to set up their skill queues.

That's why I wouldn't fully convert it over to EVE-like.  Just make it a supplement for players who want to keep progressing their character, without having to train...especially when training is in a highly diminished returns state, such as late stages of combat skills.

[wizturbo]

I like the idea of an eve-like system so long as its for time spent active in game. And also so long as its also a supplement to the other ideas already address in this thread.

I don't like it being based on "active in game" because it could encourage people to login and go AFK all day long.  Also, it wouldn't be an effective equalizer for people who don't have a lot of time to play, but still want their characters to grow at a reasonable clip.

[Armaddict]

I like the idea of an eve-like system so long as its for time spent active in game. And also so long as its also a supplement to the other ideas already address in this thread.

I don't like it being based on "active in game" because it could encourage people to login and go AFK all day long.  Also, it wouldn't be an effective equalizer for people who don't have a lot of time to play, but still want their characters to grow at a reasonable clip.

...wait, we're trying to make all PC's equalized, now?

Stop focusing on maxxing out characters.  If the fun is in the progression, then do what progresses you.  This whole thing is so weird.

[Eyeball]

I'm starting to think that the ability to see it is what's causing this particular complaint.

You are absolutely correct, Lizzy, and I've had this point several times.  Seeing the skill levels has made a very noticeable shift in behavior for me, and it was not a good shift, and the discussions on skills on the boards have shifted accordingly.

Thank you.

My play has suffered dramatically since the introduction of skill levels.  I never used to give a shit about my skills until it became a quantifiable objective that I could actively work on.

Why not simply resolve not to look in that case? I suppose it's still necessary to look once in a while to see whether a skill has branched. I can think of two things to help out. One is to request an option to the skills command that only lists the skills and not the skills levels. The other is request an option to specify on character generation that you never want to see skill levels on the skill list (this would remove all temptation).

[Beethoven]

I'd assume this system would only apply to mundanes. It wouldn't make much sense for some unmanifested/in denial magicker aide to be slowly maxing their spells while offline (or online, depending on how this is implemented.) I don't think anybody wants that, and besides, magickers don't need to skill up any faster.

But in that vein, it might be weird for this to be applied to any skills you're not using. Say my noble PC is guild_burglar. Should she be gaining experience picking locks "off-camera"?

Not to hate on the system. I actually like the idea; I'm just throwing some things out there.

[Armaddict]

I'm starting to think that the ability to see it is what's causing this particular complaint.

You are absolutely correct, Lizzy, and I've had this point several times.  Seeing the skill levels has made a very noticeable shift in behavior for me, and it was not a good shift, and the discussions on skills on the boards have shifted accordingly.

Thank you.

My play has suffered dramatically since the introduction of skill levels.  I never used to give a shit about my skills until it became a quantifiable objective that I could actively work on.

Why not simply resolve not to look in that case? I suppose it's still necessary to look once in a while to see whether a skill has branched. I can think of two things to help out. One is to request an option to the skills command that only lists the skills and not the skills levels. The other is request an option to specify on character generation that you never want to see skill levels on the skill list (this would remove all temptation).

Brief skills does this.

The point is not that it influences my play (though it does), but has a broad blanket effect over the entire playerbase, which is why these things have even come up.  People closely monitoring their skills list to see improvement, to see when it pops, to see what they can do to get it up so that they are maxxed.

Prior, the playerbase relied on trial and error to know how good they were.  When they could win consistently, they were getting good.  This stimulated more realistic play, not less realistic play.  Dangerous things were always things you were unsure about it.  No one ever got to say 'Hell yeah, I'm at advanced, I'm better than most people.'  They had to check.  The playerbase, now, is risk averse and searching for ways to increase those skills to advanced or master before ever deciding to bank anything on it, even if it is consistently succeeding.  That is why brief skills does not help.  Sure, it changes me, but it does not change the impact of the knowledge of PC's knowing -exactly- where in the scale they sit.

[Armaddict]

But in that vein, it might be weird for this to be applied to any skills you're not using. Say my noble PC is guild_burglar. Should she be gaining experience picking locks "off-camera"?

That's what I meant by meta-gamey.  CHOOSING the skill points is...very very different in relation to people improving at what they're consistently doing.

[Inks]

Yes your noble should because he can pay off-camera for tutors. And yeah I don't mean there should be a system to equalize those that don't play with those who do, but it means at least they won't have to go twink that one skill they were going to for the 30 mins of rp time they have a day.

[Armaddict]

Yes your noble should because he can pay off-camera for tutors. And yeah I don't mean there should be a system to equalize those that don't play with those who do, but it means at least they won't have to go twink that one skill they were going to for the 30 mins of rp time they have a day.

Can I kill your virtual tutor to prevent it?  CROSS-THREAD POINTS.

[wizturbo]

I think the ideal system would be something like this:

On top of whatever you might learn ICly through normal play....

• Every Tuesday every character gets a "skill boost" that they can spend on a single skill to gain a 1% bump to it.
• Characters can only have one skill boost at a time, so if you don't login that week, you don't get your boost for that week.
• Boosts may only be used on skills your character currently has on their skill sheet.  There's a good argument for excluding magick/psionics from this, but that's debatable.

Bonus awesome ideas that could compliment this system, but are clearly more controversial:

• Bonus skill boosts could be awarded by staff for good roleplay,  to account for IC circumstances where it would make sense, or a variety of other potential uses.
• Being a member of certain IC organizations might get you a bonus boost.  For example, Tor Academy members, maybe you get a bonus +1 combat skill boost per week from the training they receive there.
• Maybe allow PC's to skill boost on ANY mundane skill, even ones they don't know... If you want to develop an aptitude for a mundane skill, you can!  It will just take a long time to get really good.  Of course, maybe there's a cap on how high these skills can go, etc...

Obviously something like this would be a major coding effort, not sure if our coders can do something like it...  But it'd be neat!