Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Dresan]

Also, while I haven't tried it myself.  Are you sure that both of the above are impossible?  There is a request type for adding skills and stat bumps.
 

Staff have come out and said that due to stat ordering and such, there are no stat bumps. Added skills still happen, I think, but I've never seen it happen to myself, anyone I know or anyone I played with.

I don't know if I agree with everything Doublepalli has to say, but the idea that it sometimes feels like you can't accomplish anything in the game no matter how hard you try, whether it is real or perceived,  is a sentiment that others have also expressed here a few times.

I don't know how true it is today, with one staffer Jav specifically offering players support, but I did share that sentiment in the past.

[Fujikoma]

Animations are nice, but I've not needed them to have fun. Many times, they're less-than-fun to me, but that might be because I'm Doing It Wrong. I've been threatened by animations, killed by them, sometimes threaten them back, or roll in with a posse and stomp them into dirt (I think, that was an animation, I could have been wrong, it even fled, only to catch a knife to the face from afar).

The one that comes to mind as the creepiest and most interesting was a particular hunch-backed elf with a strange hobby of, ahem, collecting things. Kudos to staff for that, that was a crazy, creepy, super fun time for those involved.

But I certainly don't expect them, it's usually a rare treat for me, and the rarity keeps me longing for the sweetness that has yet to dull my tastebuds. I'm grateful for the way that staff doesn't see fit to interfere in my plots and lets them run, within reason. There have been times where I've seen animations that left me thinking, whoa, wtf, that just, ruined months of effort, but it never seemed particularly forced and made sense given the setting, so, no complaints.

As to 1000 rooms being added, I'm well aware that EoE staff are able to rapidly develop. I'm particularly a fan of their peer command, as I've noted multiple times, and their crafting system, along with their mastercrafting system, seems more streamlined. That's nice and all, but I get what some are saying, what would Arm players DO with thousands of new rooms, when it seems like they aren't really using the ones they have to the maximum potential. New areas and baddies and all that are a bit low on my personal list of priorities. Addition of rooftops to Allanak, complete with all the neat little atmospheric tweaks? Badass, and definitely needed, fleshes out the city which is where many people play. Expanding the grey? Well, I mean, once you get past the nasties inside there, what do you expect to find? I've met some, pretty hard-assed explorer PCs, one, in particular, who was deeply interested in the grey and its denizens, and had some rather interesting means at his disposal. The conversations at the bar were intense and scary. My personal view is that the world is big enough, I still haven't gotten to explore the whole thing.

Now to start getting ready for my hearing. I may be somewhat rare IG, not because of issues I take with staff but because my internet is getting shut off soon, I'm going through what seems to be a manic episode (and those aren't, the best time to play arm), and I'm currently exploring another game.

[KankWhisperer]

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.

[Jave]

I don't know if I agree with everything Doublepalli has to say, but the idea that it sometimes feels like you can't accomplish anything in the game no matter how hard you try, whether it is real or perceived,  is a sentiment that others have also expressed here a few times.

I don't know how true it is today, with one staffer Jav specifically offering players support, but I did share that sentiment in the past.

Assuming that you're talking about this staff announcement.

For the record, I received some hits back on that. NPC's were written up to support story arcs, animations have been done, ideas have been hashed out back and forth in character reports to make sure we're all on the same page. In short, stuff is happening.

Or in other words: I came here to tell some stories. I'm gonna tell some frickin stories.

[Quell]

I don't know if I agree with everything Doublepalli has to say, but the idea that it sometimes feels like you can't accomplish anything in the game no matter how hard you try, whether it is real or perceived,  is a sentiment that others have also expressed here a few times.

I don't know how true it is today, with one staffer Jav specifically offering players support, but I did share that sentiment in the past.

Assuming that you're talking about this staff announcement.

For the record, I received some hits back on that. NPC's were written up to support story arcs, animations have been done, ideas have been hashed out back and forth in character reports to make sure we're all on the same page. In short, stuff is happening.

Or in other words: I came here to tell some stories. I'm gonna tell some frickin stories.

Can verify.

This is a thing that has happened.

[Narf]

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.

Yeah, honestly. I hate changing cloths for every new situation. I swear it feels more onerous in the game than it does in real life.

[TheWanderer]

I'm a relatively new player. I play because I have nothing better to do. Mostly I log on and hope for inspiration that never really comes. There's a lot of great roleplayers in the game but it's rare to see many of them gather in one place. I've seen peak hours top out at 40 players and the world seems empty and desolate of PCs. And then you guys want more places added to the game so there's even less PCs to be found. I have a feeling that even if the game world was restricted to Allanak, people would still be spread out in clans and apartments and it'd look very much the same as it does now.

Just idle thoughts.

Emphasis on an excellent post that explains why this game has such a difficult time retaining both new players and veterans.

When players play because they have nothing better to do, they'll leave when that something comes along. That right there is why this game has retention issues. It's difficult to get into the mix of things as a newbie because of this strict ban on IC info and IC anything in an OOC fashion, and when nothing's going on and you can't locate players that will drive your personal plots/goals, the world feels empty. Veterans leave because they become disillusioned and bored with the static. You also experience WoW syndrome that leads people away from believing this is a sandbox when RPTs amount to, "Let's ride out to cave #5102 and kill spiders." We've been doing that for years. I know this because I was doing spider RPTs three years ago.

It's as simple as giving players something coded to fight over, like a steel sword locked in the ruins of an ancient civilization that predates the Empire or veins of copper in a couple of caves in some ridiculously dangerous zone that can be used to craft things. Most players would suddenly focus their efforts on these items, from the lowest to highest in class, and you'd see a wealth of conflict over these exceedingly rare objects. It's far easier to fight over hard-coded goals than virtual, and all you'd have to do is post some rumors on the boards, load an item up and some creatures to defend it, and boom! Players will take the reins. Not every source of conflict (and usually fleeting, at that) has to be some world-shattering event with a bunch of flashy scenes. I think you could easily balance it out.

Secondly, a consistent consolidation of the playerbase is a powerful thing, and I'd always urge against new clans in favor of simply expanding current clans. It's easier to involve your clanmates in events when you can communicate with them on OOC boards and have a meeting place that isn't the Gaj. I get that we want to disperse people amongst the various groups around the Known, but if certain clans just aren't fun, why force people to go there because the others are capped? I'm not saying remove caps -entirely-, I'm just saying raise 'em a bit. It's like capping the amount of fun players can have. With more clans, you just have more miscommunication and a greater frequency at which you're stuck waiting days to schedule a meeting that would take 10 minutes to schedule OOC.

OOC communication, even minimal, is a clan's biggest asset.

[Narf]

It's as simple as giving players something coded to fight over, like a steel sword locked in the ruins of an ancient civilization that predates the Empire or veins of copper in a couple of caves in some ridiculously dangerous zone that can be used to craft things. Most players would suddenly focus their efforts on these items, from the lowest to highest in class, and you'd see a wealth of conflict over these exceedingly rare objects. It's far easier to fight over hard-coded goals than virtual, and all you'd have to do is post some rumors on the boards, load an item up and some creatures to defend it, and boom! Players will take the reins. Not every source of conflict (and usually fleeting, at that) has to be some world-shattering event with a bunch of flashy scenes. I think you could easily balance it out.

A miniature version of this exact plot was ran recently by what I assume was a player (this shouldn't be too much IC info as the plot is on a rumor board right now). I'd be curious to know how it turned out. Not details, but just a general feel of "did this accomplish what the organizer intended?"

[nauta]

I think Doublepalli makes a lot of good points.

This isn't invented to be mean, but the staff of 3 on EoE , (one being in a hospital) created over 500 rooms in one weekend, and an additional 500 the following weekend, with new mines, monsters, forage locations, plots, etc. So there is no excuse for a 200 room change to take so long, with armageddons VASTLY larger staff. VASTLY. I personally believe that staff are working hard to do right, but they need to open their minds.

EoE has some serious quality control problems.  But the basic idea here is that some people like exploring things.  DP would like to see more things added that would facilitate that.

Open the world back up. Make it real.

While there are negatives to opening things up, one positive to opening clans back up and areas back up is that possibilities are inspiring.  Knowing that you could play a sorcerer one day, or be a desert elf in the ATV, or a Dasari, or a wyvern, or an outrider -- that's inspiring.

Provide players with staff support for bigger plots.
Minimize the glass ceiling plots where we can't do crap but watch.
...
Staff are.Players too. Animate more. I haven't seen an animation in well over a RL year. That's sad
...
For all the storytellers, I don't see animations, or stories happening. Animate more. Higher up staff - let the storytellers add stories.

All of these fall into the general category of story-telling, and there have been a lot of good suggestions on areas to improve or areas where staff might double down and refocus.

Allow our ROLE PLAY to ACCOUNT for something. If I take time to role play doing something, I expect the finished result of said role play.

Some sort of clarification on the process for gaining a skill might benefit us all here.

Offer a hint feature, and an in game helper feature.

There's a thread now on the 'hint' feature.  I would love to see an industrious player slap together even an out-of-game hint feature based on the neat tricks thread.

Try to sympathize with player discontent, rather arguing, or banning. We are people too. When a.player expresses his.or her discontent, it's because he or she CARES for the game.

Agreed.  There's been a lot of emphasis put on staff/player communication in the thread above.  Hopefully, once this is all settled, some policies will be made publicly available to us that addresses these concerns.

Unban vets, let them return. With the game world dieng and super quiet, players are leaving.
Both players and staff have been wrong in the past. Let's be adults and accept what we've done wrong. Stop lingering in past. Let people return.
...
Let's all be nice to each other. If a stores employees all quit, the store closes. Same with arm.
Let players play what they want to play if they have the karma. Let players do what they want to. Who cares? THAT'S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT! The murder, the betrayal, the love, the labor, the wars, the conflicts, the parties, the hunting crews, the new fort being built by a group of pcs - all the good and bad is part of the game. It's time to let players contribute staff. This is an rpi mud. Hello!

It's been said before that the number of banned players is really tiny.  More productive would be to, in both words and in actions, give a clear signal to people that some of the more dubious practices have been addressed staff-side.

A lot of players I've tried to recruit from other muds don't play because there is no color, hurting their eyes, or making it impossible for them to read fast enough. Maybe we can incorporate color. That by itself would bring new players, some thing I know for a FACT.

I can't find it now, but isn't there a thread on incorporating colour into your client?

[Alesan]

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.

If you are in a plot where dying means something, or are purposefully putting your character in a place where dying would create plots, I will agree that dying creates plots. But for the vast majority of characters, dying ends plots.

I had more I was going to write here, but I couldn't figure out how to not sound like I'm whining or vagueposting, so I'm just going to leave this as is.

Re player retention: People want to get involved in stuff. People don't always know how to get involved in stuff. Players who want people to be involved in stuff, make it interesting. Make it sound worth getting into. Be inspiring for those of us who can't be.

[Jave]

Re player retention: People want to get involved in stuff. People don't always know how to get involved in stuff. Players who want people to be involved in stuff, make it interesting. Make it sound worth getting into. Be inspiring for those of us who can't be.

I endorse this. I do at least 3 animations per day as a self imposed rule to help make the game world come alive for people. I know that other people on staff are quite keen to animate as well. And yet we can't get to everybody. We still routinely see:

Open the world back up. Make it real.

Staff are.Players too. Animate more. I haven't seen an animation in well over a RL year. That's sad.

Unban vets, let them return. With the game world dieng and super quiet, players are leaving.

For all the storytellers, I don't see animations, or stories happening. Animate more. Higher up staff - let the storytellers add stories.

So obviously we can't get to everyone with any kind of frequency.

Approaching us with ideas for stories you want support with to empower you to bring some other players along for the ride so we can all have a good time is really key to engaging people in large numbers.

[nauta]

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.

If you are in a plot where dying means something, or are purposefully putting your character in a place where dying would create plots, I will agree that dying creates plots. But for the vast majority of characters, dying ends plots.

I had more I was going to write here, but I couldn't figure out how to not sound like I'm whining or vagueposting, so I'm just going to leave this as is.

Re player retention: People want to get involved in stuff. People don't always know how to get involved in stuff. Players who want people to be involved in stuff, make it interesting. Make it sound worth getting into. Be inspiring for those of us who can't be.

The key is inspiration.  I guess another way of putting that point: Play the victim now and then.  (A counterpoint to playing a bad guy and badass warrior #1235.)

[Alesan]

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.

If you are in a plot where dying means something, or are purposefully putting your character in a place where dying would create plots, I will agree that dying creates plots. But for the vast majority of characters, dying ends plots.

I had more I was going to write here, but I couldn't figure out how to not sound like I'm whining or vagueposting, so I'm just going to leave this as is.

Re player retention: People want to get involved in stuff. People don't always know how to get involved in stuff. Players who want people to be involved in stuff, make it interesting. Make it sound worth getting into. Be inspiring for those of us who can't be.

The key is inspiration.  I guess another way of putting that point: Play the victim now and then.  (A counterpoint to playing a bad guy and badass warrior #1235.)

This is a much more inspiring comment than suggesting to simply let your character die in hopes of creating plots. Being a victim can mean so much more than just getting tossed into the PK grinder. Good clarification.

[KankWhisperer]

It's as simple as giving players something coded to fight over, like a steel sword locked in the ruins of an ancient civilization that predates the Empire or veins of copper in a couple of caves in some ridiculously dangerous zone that can be used to craft things. Most players would suddenly focus their efforts on these items, from the lowest to highest in class, and you'd see a wealth of conflict over these exceedingly rare objects. It's far easier to fight over hard-coded goals than virtual, and all you'd have to do is post some rumors on the boards, load an item up and some creatures to defend it, and boom! Players will take the reins. Not every source of conflict (and usually fleeting, at that) has to be some world-shattering event with a bunch of flashy scenes. I think you could easily balance it out.

A miniature version of this exact plot was ran recently by what I assume was a player (this shouldn't be too much IC info as the plot is on a rumor board right now). I'd be curious to know how it turned out. Not details, but just a general feel of "did this accomplish what the organizer intended?"

[BadSkeelz]

OOC communication, even minimal, is a clan's biggest asset.

I'll counter that having leaders who have plots that they're willing to throw newbies at is just as, if not more important, than "OOC communication." I didn't know jack shit when I was a newbie and didn't get told much of anything OOC, yet I still had leaders who wanted to train and involve me.

[TheWanderer]

Yes. It's important to have the plots to warrant OOC communication. I'm not debating that, as it's... the sole reason I'd even suggest OOC communication. They kind of go hand in hand.

Just makes things easier for newbies and leaders alike.

[Dresan]

And just to go back full circle.

After ever character dead, it takes three weeks to a month for me to be able to contribute to the game in any meaningful way. Whether good, bad, sitting at the tavern making more than just idle coversation, asking people for stuff, offering people stuff. Instead I often have very little to offer, nothing to do but grind some more, code wise at least.  Rp wise though since its easy to tell i'm a new character with absolutely nothing useful to contrubite, alot of people ignore me. Clans want to hire me, but again, thats another month of training before they even let me out of the gates on my own and I've always felt dependant on my leader for fun, since I am under so many restrictions half the time.

Again It would be great if my character could just get up and do more shit right out of the box, without having to go off solo, to kill something and fail skin for the tenth time despite being a thirty year old hunter. I don't think its only staff that need to contribute by bringing the world alive, but I think the grind is responsible for a lot of the lack of contribution from the player side. I know for a fact it is responsible for taking me out of the game for long periods of time. After you invest a lot of time in a character alot of the time the risk/rewards of playing a villan or criminal do not add up. Again if you die, thats another couple of weeks of being ignored for being a useless noob, and training your character to the point people take you seriously.

Do you know how many times I've been told by other characters that they don't really care to even bother to learn my character's name because chances are I could be dead in a couple weeks? I'm sure we've all seen it.

Again all this does is lessen the contribution from the player's side and take players away from the game as they go off somewhere to grind and then again when they finish the grind because why risk losing a competant character and have to do the grind all over again. I think restrictive shedules also contribute to this problem but its a personal peeve of mine, and I will admit I am biased against clans with alot of restrictions.  

[Riev]

I've said the "I don't care who you are you'll be dead soon" to veteran-ass GMH hunters.

When you start a character, of course it takes time to be influential. That is why special apps and sponsored roles exist, to app in with some in-game backup already.

As with the "When am I badass" thread, you're badass when the world starts noticing you're badass. You can't app in, start the game, wear a bunch of cool-mo-dee shit and start acting like a fat-cat. You gotta make friends, be useful, show someone you're reliable. And its got very little to do with skills (read: little, not none).

I've had Byn Sergeants app in, try to throw weight around and end up murdered by the squad they were leading. They had coded ability but it didn't matter because their reputation was in the shitter. Without a Sponsored role you can't really app in "reputation".

[Alesan]

I've said the "I don't care who you are you'll be dead soon" to veteran-ass GMH hunters.

When you start a character, of course it takes time to be influential. That is why special apps and sponsored roles exist, to app in with some in-game backup already.

As with the "When am I badass" thread, you're badass when the world starts noticing you're badass. You can't app in, start the game, wear a bunch of cool-mo-dee shit and start acting like a fat-cat. You gotta make friends, be useful, show someone you're reliable. And its got very little to do with skills (read: little, not none).

I've had Byn Sergeants app in, try to throw weight around and end up murdered by the squad they were leading. They had coded ability but it didn't matter because their reputation was in the shitter. Without a Sponsored role you can't really app in "reputation".

I don't think this really addresses the views Dresan shared, and I really have to sympathize with him because my characters are usually the same way.

[Fujikoma]

It's true, though, so many characters are in such a hurry to either get eaten or swan-dive off the shield wall.

[Dresan]

I think the you missed the point Riev.

Its not about being a badass or influencial, there are plenty of people with strong character who never become either of those things, that takes player skill to accomplish that beyond just the grind. Its about being able to be somewhat useful without spending three weeks to a month grinding. If people don't have a need for you, because you have no skills to contribute, they don't even bother even learning your name. Thus you don't get invited into any plots, and any plots you might have are mostly wishful thinking. 

Special apped leader roles are specifically given skill/stats boosts in order to able to get into the game quicker and start leading some missions and plots. Again the idea that this day and age you need to waste your time doing mindless grind just to get to the fun stuff is outdated. You should be able to be some use from the beginning, get into the meat of the game (plots) from the beginning, and be able contribute something.

No not be a badass that kills meks alone, not be the most trusted person in the game, or have every noble and templar listen to you, but at least not be completely useless to almost everyone around you until X number of days have passed. Then maybe people might be more curious about what your name is... 

[Inks]

If everyone started badass that would push the bar so much higher and make the world less dangerous.

[Taven]

Whitt's post is something I can agree with in terms of how stuff that's been suggested isn't always something I think makes sense, or it's already been suggested and addressed.

Kankwhisper's posts I just find hilarious.

[nauta]

I don't know where I stand on the solution in terms of code bumps or something, but I too have noticed this in the past.

If people don't have a need for you, because you have no skills to contribute, they don't even bother even learning your name. Thus you don't get invited into any plots, and any plots you might have are mostly wishful thinking. 

In general, however, I don't like playing with people who view my PC as a set of skills, rather than a bundle of RP joy, so I just avoid leaders like that.

My favourite characters were ones where I lied about what I was (or, in the first case, was such a newb I kinda forgot what I was), e.g., a pickpocket as a Salarri hunter, a ranger as an aide.

There's also this thing where the first month of a fresh PC can feel really odd -- it takes something to make it click for me at least.

[Lizzie]

I think the you missed the point Riev.

Its not about being a badass or influencial, there are plenty of people with strong character who never become either of those things, that takes player skill to accomplish that beyond just the grind. Its about being able to be somewhat useful without spending three weeks to a month grinding. If people don't have a need for you, because you have no skills to contribute, they don't even bother even learning your name. Thus you don't get invited into any plots, and any plots you might have are mostly wishful thinking. 

Special apped leader roles are specifically given skill/stats boosts in order to able to get into the game quicker and start leading some missions and plots. Again the idea that this day and age you need to waste your time doing mindless grind just to get to the fun stuff is outdated. You should be able to be some use from the beginning, get into the meat of the game (plots) from the beginning, and be able contribute something.

No not be a badass that kills meks alone, not be the most trusted person in the game, or have every noble and templar listen to you, but at least not be completely useless to almost everyone around you until X number of days have passed. Then maybe people might be more curious about what your name is... 

I can see that for some people it might be difficult, but I've never really encountered much trouble getting involved in stuff right out of chargen. As long as people were around when I logged in. When no one's around, obviously there's nothing to get involved in.

Of course if the only thing you ever actually want to do with all your PCs is kill stuff or kill people, then yeah you'll have a tough time of it for awhile. But that just seems pretty one-dimensional to me. It's part of the fun, of course. And it can be frustrating if you're trying to be competent on your own. But being codedly competent shouldn't prevent you from getting involved in stuff.