At What Point Does Your Character Become Awesome?

[Nyr]

If I may, would you consider reviewing your policy?  I think your policy could be amended to add a bias in favor of a PC when interacting with an NPC.

I'm afraid not.  What your character is and what your charcter says (and overall, how your character is played/roleplayed) will factor into IC reactions from animations.  The fact that you are a player will not factor into IC reactions.

[Taven]

Say for example, if your character's brother was locked up, and you wanted him free.  As you approach the outer gate of the prison, the two guards snap to attention.  They watch you expectantly.  Halting at a safe distance, you call:

"I ask that you free my brother, and we won't have any trouble!"

You pull your sword for dramatic effect.

As a noob, the guards can spot that your sword grip is weak whilst you aim the blade.  They hear your voice cracking in fear.  They laugh.  They call back.  "Put that away before you get hurt.  If you wish to see your brother, hire a noble to write a petition to the Templarate.  Perhaps they shall grant you an audience."  They laugh at you, you're beneath their notice.

I don't think they'd call back. I think they'd get in touch with their commanders, then murder your ass for daring to draw a sword on the Highlord's soldiers. Further, a quick death might not be good enough. It would make more of a political statement if they killed you slowly.

The real question is, should it be watching you get impaled and bugs devour your insides? Or would it be more entertaining to hear you beg for mercy as they slowly stretched you apart, before showing the cheering crowd in your blood? Perhaps it might be most entertaining to jeer at you, while you see how utterly pathetic you are with that sword in the area. Oh, and is it worth the time to kill your brother in front of you first, and punish you that way, as well? Hmm, decisions, decisions.

Allanak is not a friendly place. You draw a sword on a soldier, you just fucked up big time.

At level X, you look tough enough that they're actually intimidated.  They arrest you.  Oops.

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

At level Y, the guards are pretty intimidated of you.  One of them goes to fetch a Templar to hear you out.

Maybe you've got some social influence now. Maybe. That templar is going to tell you, regardless of your influence, that if you ever do that again, she will not only murder you, but make your brother wish he'd never been born. This status that you have is going to your head--No matter what friends you have, the tempalrs control the city.

If you're wise and you have this level of influence, you're not going to draw a sword in the middle of the street. You're going to Way the templar, pass a big sack of coin their way, and continue on your merry way.

At level Z, they're somewhat afraid of you.  They flee their post.

I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

I think the problem here is that this that your example is using blunt power. That's not how power and social status work in a city. You could be some Tor Senior Aide badass who killed a hundred people. They're still not going to flee their post. Because the templar they work for is a lot scarier then you are. And they know, without a doubt, that if they disobey orders and let your brother go--They're going to be murdered.

Furthermore, if you have any social clout at all, you know that too. Why the hell are you wasting time talking to these peons? You're got social status! So go bother the Sergeant or a templar or something.

At level A, they're really afraid of you.  One hurries to fetch your brother before you loose your temper.

Yeah, this pretty much describes the above. Though I'm not really sure why in your example a "lower level" has them fleeing their posts, while this level has them fetching someone.

In truth, they still wouldn't leave their post. They'd just use the Way, which is far more practical.

At level B, they're terrified and in awe.  They offer to fetch your brother for you, and then to join you on your quest!

Hah. You know you're being silly now, I don't have to say it.

My question is, how do you know when your character is at these levels?

The point is, this isn't a D&D game. There's no CHA stat to tell you when you can roll diplomacy and have the NPCs do whatever you want. Your character reaches these levels when they have enough friends and influence. There's not a magick formula for it.

[whitt]

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

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I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

[Taven]

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Yes, concern about dying now is a concern. But the guy drawing the sword in the middle of the street might not be taking into account the virtual world.

Let's say there IS a crazy, spiced-up rogue mul in the middle of the city:

• How did they even get past the gate guards and get into the city to begin with?
• Did they take into account the entire city full of soldiers who would arrest or kill them for being there?
• How many templars did they pass on the road to the jail?

(I've been assuming that this jail isn't the actual IC one located in the Templar's Quarter in my response to you and ibusoe, because that would make the entire situation even more ludicrous then it already is).

And furthermore, why the hell would you think they'd leave you alive if you did what they asked? They wouldn't ASK you to open the gate. They'd kill you and take the key. Why? Because you could be Waying someone AS WE SPEAK.

Your example is about as fantastical as the glowing magicker. So, maybe, all conditions met and somehow not being killed at this point, the soldiers would flee their posts. But I'm pretty sure it would just be to get reinforcements.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

In the past two years or so I've really toned down, played very casual, nonshocking, mundane lives (compared to what was possible for them) and I've been really happy with them, despite their lack of awesome.

[Kankfly]

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

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I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Not everyone is like the movies,where you become so badass you march up to a prison and demand them to free your brother, with a handgun. A sword is even worse than a handgun, not to mention they send in templars that'll just fry your ass.

Remember that though you may just see a few NPCs or whatever guarding the jail gates, ICly, it's guarded by other VNPCs as well. I'm pretty sure they'll just ... squish you.

[Jihelu]

You're right...
Take over Mantis tribes with evil powers or some shit then try.

[ibusoe]

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Whitt,

Thanks so much for writing this!  I think this summarizes the crux of my thesis here. 

Plenty of people don't understand that important people and large organizations can be strong-armed by the little guy once in a while.  Some of us have experience doing this in real life. 

On a personal note, I tend to resent people who always (in real life, not game related mind you) roll over the very second someone slightly scary leans on them.  It causes any number of social problems.  While Nyr's reasoning (earlier in this thread) seems fully solid in my point of view, there seem to be others here who don't understand that a templar, fireballs and minions aside, is someone with fragile neck vertebrae like the rest of us, who is unable to sustain loosing more than a couple of pints of blood any better than the rest of us could, who's friends, loved ones, allies and servants are all vulnerable to kidnap, and who has to sleep at some point.

In answer to what the staff asked, I think part of the dissatisfaction of some players (not me, I'm having a blast!) revolves around the inability to make changes or affect the game world, pursuant to other posts.  Some of the inability to make changes involves an assumption (on some people's part) that the second you make waves, NPCs are going to disapprove and are going to come swarming out of the woodwork to lay the smack down on you.  I think players should be encouraged to go beat up on NPCs a little more, with the understanding that the staff don't have a ton of time to support these kind of actions. 

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

[whitt]

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

Just also be ready to reap the whirlwind.  Because as was mentioned, the Way is a thing.  Reinforcements are a thing.  And when big organizations are made to look bad they may take out their immediate wrath on the NPC(s) that failed them, the "bad ass" will eventually receive a thumping and any less "bad ass" minions?  Will get thumped hard and quick.

[James de Monet]

Gah.  I just lost another long post to Safari mobile.  Thbbt.

The gist was: your character isn't awesome.  Ever.  Doesn't matter who they are.  Awesomeness is not inherent.  They might have awesome skills, or awesome friends, or an awesome bank account, or awesome charisma, or awesome luck, etc. etc. but there are situations in which all of those traits do not apply, and your character's awesome quotient goes down in that moment because of it.

How awesome people perceive your character as being is going to be a direct relation between how much is awesome about your character, and how many of those things the perceiver is aware of.



As to surviving troublemaking, just remember that the cardinal rule of making waves is: don't ever get silt on someone more powerful than you who doesn't have a personal reason to want you alive.

[sleepyhead]

I'd agree with you, James, if the definition of "awesome" was "great at everything." But my definition of "awesome" has more to do with how compelling a character is. That compelling quality can manifest as terrifying power, or influence, an amazing story, or just raw humanity and "realness."

[Molten Heart]

I'm not sure what is meant by "become awesome" but I'm going to take it as the moment when I begin to really have fun, thinking "This is awesome" that being, playing my character is awesome.

When my character starts to feel "real" like a real person, and keep playing just to see what happens next.

Depending on the character, this happens at different times. Sometimes it may not happen. Often times it happens more than once with a single character.

[James de Monet]

You guys seem to be describing a character that is OOCly awesome, but I don't think that is the OP's intent.

[Molten Heart]

Okay, so when my character gains notoriety for something about them, either something they've done or power they have.

[Taven]

On a personal note, I tend to resent people who always (in real life, not game related mind you) roll over the very second someone slightly scary leans on them.  It causes any number of social problems.  While Nyr's reasoning (earlier in this thread) seems fully solid in my point of view, there seem to be others here who don't understand that a templar, fireballs and minions aside, is someone with fragile neck vertebrae like the rest of us, who is unable to sustain loosing more than a couple of pints of blood any better than the rest of us could, who's friends, loved ones, allies and servants are all vulnerable to kidnap, and who has to sleep at some point.

Yes, a templar IS fragile. I've seen lots of them die. That NPC spider, mekillot, gith soldier, or magick thing of doom doesn't care that a templar is a templar. They're going to eat and or kill it, if they can. In terms of PCs, templars can die to assassinations and a distressing amount have died (historically) to rogue 'gickers. Yes, you can totally kill a templar.

But your example was about a PC in the middle of the road challenging NPCs in a city that they own and control. And... You're ignoring a lot of factors in your example. You said how you agreed with what some of Nyr said--I agree with exactly what he said in this post starting with "Where are you?".

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

I've heard about NPC successes "against" NPCs. For example, a kadian died and left his guard outside of an apartment. A couple of PCs wanted to break in. So, they wished up and had one talk to the NPC to distract him, the other one unlocked the door, and then they just pretended that they'd had the key the whole time, and waltzed in. But... Was there a 75% chance they'd be successful? Nope. It was highly variable.

But notice also that they TRICKED the NPC. They didn't try to go head to head with the NPC. Sure, that could have been an option. Maybe they could have tried to threaten him--But that would have given him time to Way someone. Maybe they could have tried to kill him or knock him out--But maybe the apartment keeper downstairs would have heard, or one of the many vNPCs that lived there would have heard. The answer to everything isn't always brute strength. Yes, that CAN be the answer--But there's a lot of other options, and they can make more sense and be more effective.

[ibusoe]

You guys seem to be describing a character that is OOCly awesome, but I don't think that is the OP's intent.

My question related to NPC reactions.  I'm starting to get that sink feeling that my perceptions are based on pre-reorg experience, LOL

As far as I'm concerned, the level of (PC-based) roleplay in the game is on average hovering between the B+ and A- level, which is insane if you think about it.  I think it's the Millenials.  Normally us veterans are stuck babysitting a bunch of noobs, but it seems like the millenials are "getting it" better than we did when we were learning to play.  I'd suppose that the fact that they've grown up using social media is giving them some kind of an edge that I didn't have. 

It's the NPC where I've problems in the past, but I haven't tried to do anything artistic with the NPCs in a long time.  Who knows?  I might need to investigate more.  Certainly having a set of standards can only help to guide decision making. 

If you read what Nyr wrote, he seems to understand the situation better than I do so it's comforting to know that behind the scenes, the authorities are doing their jobs.  And for people who are unhappy with the way that an NPC reacts, they can always put in a complaint.  I happen to be having a good experience.

I tend to write open-ended questions though, because I would want my threads to turn into "hang-out" threads where people can just post stuff off of the top of their head.  I find a lot of gems this way, even if the stuff was a bit off topic. 

As to surviving troublemaking, just remember that the cardinal rule of making waves is: don't ever get silt on someone more powerful than you who doesn't have a personal reason to want you alive.

You're certainly not without a point, but there should definitely be a way that I as a player can ascertain my character's worth.

I should know how awesome (or not) my character is, as should the staff.  My character himself may not know, and hijinks may ensue.  But players behind the (player and non-player) characters shouldn't be confused on this issue.

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

Oh no, I'm actually agreeing with you.  We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

Unfortunately we already have put a number on it.  You might think of it as the mekillot rating.  Somebody who can kill a mekillot, is going to almost always be intimidating to somebody who can't kill a mekillot. 

If I can't kill a mekillot and I want to intimidate someone, I just need to bring a mekillot killer with me.  I can try to go it with less, but then I'm essentially bluffing.  Which is fine too, that's what we have staff to resolve. 

[Refugee]

When other PCs seek him out for adventure!

[Taven]

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

Oh no, I'm actually agreeing with you.  We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

Unfortunately we already have put a number on it.  You might think of it as the mekillot rating.  Somebody who can kill a mekillot, is going to almost always be intimidating to somebody who can't kill a mekillot. 

If I can't kill a mekillot and I want to intimidate someone, I just need to bring a mekillot killer with me.  I can try to go it with less, but then I'm essentially bluffing.  Which is fine too, that's what we have staff to resolve. 

I think you're still missing my point.

Using social influence to bring a mekillot-killer with you is indeed social influence. But it's probably only going to help if you need to kill a mekillot. Otherwise, it's a like trying to use a hammer to cook a pie. It's probably not going to turn out right.

We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric.

Well, I disagree that we need a metric to account for this.

I think that even if we did try to have a system, there's no way that all the variables could be accounted for. Making and implementing such a system would be a nightmare. I personally think it's impossible, though if you want to take a crack at it, I'd be willing to read a proposal.

[Rokal]

I've been doing some thinking on this.

This isn't going to be about MY character. But these are things that make a character awesome to me - and not my own. I'd rather be surrounded by awesome, interesting characters, then focus on making my own awesome.


A character becomes awesome when they do that one thing you didn't expect the character to succeed at, and my own was a part of it, even if small.

A character becomes awesome when you're legitamtly invested in their story and can feel for the character and sympathzie with them.

A character becomes awesome because of their journey, not their end goals. Its who they became from their adventures and struggles! Learning the stories behind a character or journeying with them alongside them? Totally awesome.

A character becomes awesome when they're having clear struggles with themselves - morality. Right and wrong. The struggle of taboos and such, and they bring them to light. They show stress, anixity.  Questioning themsleves if murdering that person for a piece of bread was the right thing to do. I do not see zalanthans as completely heartless. People would still consider such things as "If I steal from this guy, he might not be able to feed the kids he has." .. Everyone has a moral standard. For example the thief that has no problem stealing coin from anyone, but then goes out of his/her way to bake and cook food for themselves, and then  when realizing they have too much. Leaves some in the pockets of those starving to 'even things out'.

.. I could go on and on, i've many more brewing in my mind, but these are some of the most prominent ones.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm thinking awesome in terms of the character's story and you all are thinking about political power and how good a dude is in a fight. Vanilla and chocolate.