At What Point Does Your Character Become Awesome?

[ibusoe]

Armageddon staff seem to have somewhat of a fixation with the rags to riches story.

I tend not to criticize this trope.  If that's what the staff wants to see, I'm usually content to start my characters as a racist, ignorant, magic-fearing nobody nursing a spice addiction struggling to get established in a world where they have little relevant job experience, practically no money and are completely illiterate. 

My question is, how long does it take for a character to become awesome?

Right. I was saying it within the context of what I quoted though. As in 5 to 10 days isn't that 'quick' at all. Its actually a lot of fucking time to those of use with responsibility in our lives. That said, by the five to ten day mark, already excluding combat skills, some of my mundanes are beginning to reach the point where they can branch (of course some skills training quicker then others).  Again I'm someone who hasn't branched any of their mages anyways but I've heard some of them are maxed out by then. But I dunno. 

It could just be I don't train my characters as efficiently as others.

I want to be careful and say that I don't think people who can put in a lot of time don't have responsibilities or something like that -- that wasn't my point.  I just don't think 240 hours is trivial *at all*, and I think our tendency to think in "days played" in way very particular to this community has really made it seem like mages are easier to play than they really are.

I don't mean from a coded perspective.  Plenty of players have suggested tweaks to the code for various race/class combinations in one direction or other, although I personally don't have any strong feelings on the matter.

I mean more in terms of the social impact of a character?  How long should it take until a character is feared or respected?

[MeTekillot]

When you watch what you say around them.

[Narf]

I mean more in terms of the social impact of a character?  How long should it take until a character is feared or respected?

I've always wanted to play a con artist character that just convinced people they were important right out the gate. It'd take some serious brainstorming to figure out how to make it believable though.

So I guess my answer is "How well do you lie?"

[Marauder Moe]

I don't understand why there needs to be a "should" about it.

A character is feared and respected when they are feared and respected.  I don't think any other qualifications, time or otherwise, are necessary.

[Fujikoma]

IMHO a character doesn't need to be feared or respected to be awesome... I think a character that's the opposite of that awesome, as well. I think a fleshed out character with shared experiences with other characters to reminisce on and learn from, as well as a complicated social network, contribute significantly more to awesome than coded skills.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think you can really measure "awesomeness" by how feared or successful or codedly dangerous a PC is. I've seen plenty of codedly powerful PCs who could easily kill yours, and when they were around were given due consideration because of that, but I would never describe them as awesome.

An awesome PC is one that's fun to be around and play with (or against).

[Refugee]

I don't think you can really measure "awesomeness" by how feared or successful or codedly dangerous a PC is. I've seen plenty of codedly powerful PCs who could easily kill yours, and when they were around were given due consideration because of that, but I would never describe them as awesome.

An awesome PC is one that's fun to be around and play with (or against).

I agree with this.  Think of who you were playing with 3 years ago, those PCs that you actually remember, they were awesome.

[Fujikoma]

I don't think you can really measure "awesomeness" by how feared or successful or codedly dangerous a PC is. I've seen plenty of codedly powerful PCs who could easily kill yours, and when they were around were given due consideration because of that, but I would never describe them as awesome.

An awesome PC is one that's fun to be around and play with (or against).

I agree with this.  Think of who you were playing with 3 years ago, those PCs that you actually remember, they were awesome.

There were a LOT of those for me.

[Nyr]

I don't really agree with the assessment that staff have a fixation on the "rags to riches" story.  If I'm reading the introductory paragraph correctly, I'd disagree with the rest, too.  There are plenty of awesome characters that fit most of the qualities that seem to be associated with "rags" in that bit.  They're ignorant, racist, magick-fearing, struggle with addictions, and are completely illiterate.  I could point to a handful right now that fit that mold.  I can point to more that are literate.  I can name others that weren't literate but were rich. 

What made them awesome was the fact that they were roleplayed well...or roleplayed well enough in certain situations that they stuck out.

As for feared and respected, Marauder Moe has the right of it.  Once someone is perceived as one who is feared and respected, they are feared and respected.  There are a multitude of routes to get there, though.

[seidhr]

Where'd the idea that we like the rags to riches story come from?

Some of my favorite PCs were never wealthy or socially notable.

[Fujikoma]

I mean more in terms of the social impact of a character?  How long should it take until a character is feared or respected?

I've always wanted to play a con artist character that just convinced people they were important right out the gate. It'd take some serious brainstorming to figure out how to make it believable though.

So I guess my answer is "How well do you lie?"

I've done this before once. I won't go into specifics because it hasn't been long enough, but it was really amusing to me to know that codedly I would get my butt kicked but fronting all the same. I must've done a good job. Then a poorly-timed climb check got me. lol

[Majikal]

I know my pc is feared and respected usually somewhere between the third of fourth beep. 


As to how long should it take to be feared and respected? There's no formula for that. Quick rise to power, slow rise to power, business deal nets you some powerful allies and weight. Then there are half-elves, they don't get respect cause they're gross.

[Desertman]

When you get kudos that's a pretty good sign you character is/was awesome. It means someone liked your character so much/how you played them that they actually took extra time to let you know anonymously that you were worth remembering to them.

That's pretty awesome in my opinion.

[In Dreams]

Being someone who loves character development, I would say it's when your PC starts having a real impact on the character development of others - but no, not through killing them. Really affecting how they think and change, as people.

[Rokal]

A character doesn't become awesome to me because of what they achieve, or do.

A character becomes awesome to me when I feel like the character im roleplaying making waves and creating reactions within other characters. Making ties and creating a sense of story.

[Alesan]

Quit worrying about playing awesome characters and just play characters.

[Jihelu]

The greatest characters are the ones you never hear of.

Or just people who die as day 2 warriors.

[Seeker]

My question is, how long does it take for a character to become awesome?

It seems that for me, the standard is about seventeen seconds after the final appearance of the Mantis Head for my ex-PC.  Then? 

*stunned* 

"Krath... (s)he was glorious, wasn't (s)he?"

[ibusoe]

I've always wanted to play a con artist character that just convinced people they were important right out the gate. It'd take some serious brainstorming to figure out how to make it believable though.
So I guess my answer is "How well do you lie?"

The problem with this is that with the prevelance of the Funnel, next to the semi-complete absence of prominent NPCs, coupled with the dearth of staff support for roles like these means that pretty much everyone knows that you're blowing smoke. 

If noboy has heard of you, they know that you're either a noob or con-artist.  Effectively you're invisible.  You'd be lucky to be arrested as a con-artist.

I don't understand why there needs to be a "should" about it.

There needs to be a should about it.  I was trying to put some numbers on things and wanted people's help.

For starters, understand that Armageddon is based in large part upon Dark Sun, which is based in large part upon Dungeons and Dragons.

I used to DM for Dungeons and Dragons, table-top.  Players wanted to see measureable progress for their characters as the game unfolded.  The rule books actually published standards for things like this, but I remebering liberalizing them by half a notch.  Following various tropes such as Star Wars (or Taran, etc.) , I'd usually start characters off as bumpkins or hayseeds from some remote village or other, which would explain why they were neigther extensively familiar with the countryside nor with the urban centers.  There would be exceptions for thieves, who would usually be somebodies cousin (from a neighboring city) and likewise for Ranger characters (who would have both traveled and hunted extensively). 
This was Level One.
The fighters were typically the strongest lad in the village, the mage the smartest and the most enterprising, and the cleric was the most pious, possessed of exceptionally strong judgement.  So everybody in the village knew them, but outside of the village, as they set off on their first quest to seek adventure in the land of Hyrule, they were out of their element.
Eventually they became more formidable, more knowlegeable and more renown.
By the time they hit level three, everyone in the valley had heard of them.  By then the characters, usually about three in my gaming group, had enough firepower to take out a troll which otherwise would have been quite a menace to the peasants and the villagers. 
By level ten, they would have been known as far the city.  They would no longer have to venture to find adventure.  People would come and petition them for help with things.  This was usually a blessing, although inevitably the bad guys got wise and began to resent the appirition of a powerful collective of do-gooders in the realm. 

Where I'm lost is figuring out how this translates to Armageddon. 

Say for example, if your character's brother was locked up, and you wanted him free.  As you approach the outer gate of the prison, the two guards snap to attention.  They watch you expectantly.  Halting at a safe distance, you call:

"I ask that you free my brother, and we won't have any trouble!"

You pull your sword for dramatic effect.

As a noob, the guards can spot that your sword grip is weak whilst you aim the blade.  They hear your voice cracking in fear.  They laugh.  They call back.  "Put that away before you get hurt.  If you wish to see your brother, hire a noble to write a petition to the Templarate.  Perhaps they shall grant you an audience."  They laugh at you, you're beneath their notice.

At level X, you look tough enough that they're actually intimidated.  They arrest you.  Oops.

At level Y, the guards are pretty intimidated of you.  One of them goes to fetch a Templar to hear you out.

At level Z, they're somewhat afraid of you.  They flee their post.

At level A, they're really afraid of you.  One hurries to fetch your brother before you loose your temper.

At level B, they're terrified and in awe.  They offer to fetch your brother for you, and then to join you on your quest!

My question is, how do you know when your character is at these levels? 

[Quell]

It seems like as soon as you get to the point where you can do interesting things.

How long this takes depends on the interesting things you're aiming for. Killing mekillots would probably take a long time, but mastercrafting something spiffy doesn't really take a huge amount of playtime.

And then there's always goals that don't take stats or skills at all, though usually if they count as "awesome" they'll probably take some reputation. Getting a decent reputation might take a few months of regular play.

Just my guestimation.

[whitt]

My question is, how do you know when your character is at these levels? 

Walk up to the guards and make your demand.  See what happens.

[Bushranger]

The moment I receive that email with the words: Congratulations!  *Amos* has been approved for play at Armageddon MUD (armageddon.org [4050]).



True story.

Also, if you're playing a fme pc (regardless of gender) remember the Vicky Mendoza diagonal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agy6KOSwyA8

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I've had two awesome characters, because I still remember them for their sheer awesome, and others do too. One got kudos and the other got two kudos, an insane runner and an evil water witch respectively. I'll never have a character like that witch again.

[ibusoe]

Where'd the idea that we like the rags to riches story come from?

Some of my favorite PCs were never wealthy or socially notable.

This is probably yet another misconception that I have (veteran player) based upon learning the game quite a while ago.

Be honest, if you will.  It wouldn't bother you if I made a new character and starting waltzing around like I was the Grand Pimp of Allanak?

As for feared and respected, Marauder Moe has the right of it.  Once someone is perceived as one who is feared and respected, they are feared and respected.  There are a multitude of routes to get there, though.

This was kind of what I was afraid of.  To dramatize what I don't quite think you're saying, but still want to confirm anyway, is that the way to become popular is to attend the right parties, and the way to get into good parties is to be popular.  

Based upon everything else I know about the way that you run the game, I feel like that's not the case, but still if you would be good enough to elaborate it'd be much appreciated.

It seems like as soon as you get to the point where you can do interesting things.

How long this takes depends on the interesting things you're aiming for. Killing mekillots would probably take a long time, but mastercrafting something spiffy doesn't really take a huge amount of playtime.

Honestly, that's a really good response.  Certainly somebody who can kill a mekillot is a bad ass, no one to be trifled with.

I've had two awesome characters, because I still remember them for their sheer awesome, and others do too. One got kudos and the other got two kudos, an insane runner and an evil water witch respectively. I'll never have a character like that witch again.

On a completely unrelated note, the game needs more evil water witches.

[Fujikoma]

Too much "fear", too little "respect", the two don't necessarily go hand in hand, but they would, if those damn roundears knew what was good for them.

[Suhuy]

Be honest, if you will.  It wouldn't bother you if I made a new character and starting waltzing around like I was the Grand Pimp of Allanak?

That's not the same as rags to riches, though. I don't care what level of society a PC fresh out of chargen is, I hate when they walk around like they're the top dog on day 1. Because they're not yet. Even a noble or templar needs to establish themselves before they act like they own the place. But that's not rags to riches, that's simply developing a reputation for your character. You can be a stat-boosted 'Rinth elf defiler with literacy and heaps of other goodies from day 1, but you still don't have any street cred yet.

[Desertman]

Be honest, if you will.  It wouldn't bother you if I made a new character and starting waltzing around like I was the Grand Pimp of Allanak?

That's not the same as rags to riches, though. I don't care what level of society a PC fresh out of chargen is, I hate when they walk around like they're the top dog on day 1. Because they're not yet. Even a noble or templar needs to establish themselves before they act like they own the place. But that's not rags to riches, that's simply developing a reputation for your character. You can be a stat-boosted 'Rinth elf defiler with literacy and heaps of other goodies from day 1, but you still don't have any street cred yet.

+1

I've had a couple of new characters come up to my vets and act like they were the rulers of the world.....and I didn't even know their names.

Had them both killed. Regret nothing.

[Narf]

This is probably yet another misconception that I have (veteran player) based upon learning the game quite a while ago.

Be honest, if you will.  It wouldn't bother you if I made a new character and starting waltzing around like I was the Grand Pimp of Allanak?

People do this on occasion. It used to bother me a tiny bit, but it doesn't anymore.

Think of it this way: Not everyone is going to write a background about how they're a nobody that's never done anything of import. It would get immensely repetitive if every single character you ever made was like this. So once in a while you have a character with a background where they actually matter (at least within a specific subculture). If they have this it would be poor roleplaying to walk into the game acting like they were no one special just because OOCly they're new.

Sometimes you just have to play a character a little cocky because you don't want to play "Character who's never done anything important #578" even if they haven't done much in game yet. It's the nature of the beast.

[nauta]

There's also a difference between being codedly awesome (respected/feared by other players) and being a somebody in the culture of Zalanthas (repsected/feared by other characters). 

Sure, you can kill a mekillot, but you are still, basically, a commoner with no affiliations at all; or, flip it around the other way, sure you can't kill a mekillot, but you are Lord Wow Oash.

[Fujikoma]

There's also a difference between being codedly awesome (respected/feared by other players) and being a somebody in the culture of Zalanthas (repsected/feared by other characters). 

Sure, you can kill a mekillot, but you are still, basically, a commoner with no affiliations at all; or, flip it around the other way, sure you can't kill a mekillot, but you are Lord Wow Oash.

You could leverage your coded awesomeness to become useful to Lord Wow Oash's cultural awesomeness, thereby gaining some status for yourself to go with your coded awesomeness, provided you meet certain prerequisites.

Some of my favorite characters I've encountered IG have had neither, and my have even been day 1 characters. I think that's where it becomes clear that, yes, this character is awesome.

[seidhr]

Where'd the idea that we like the rags to riches story come from?

Some of my favorite PCs were never wealthy or socially notable.

This is probably yet another misconception that I have (veteran player) based upon learning the game quite a while ago.

Be honest, if you will.  It wouldn't bother you if I made a new character and starting waltzing around like I was the Grand Pimp of Allanak?

It would only bother me if you were doing something that conflicted with the game's setting or documentation in some way.  It's kind of a broad role, "Grand Pimp of Allanak," you know?  If you mean in the sense that you came into the game and were claiming that you had the best hoes for your brothel that anyone has ever seen - no that wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Less literally, if you were trying to say that your newbie merchant made better weapons than Salarr and was richer, too - well, you could certainly claim that, but everyone would know you were full of shit.  And there's nothing wrong with playing a character that has delusions of grandeur.

Without specifics it'd be really hard for me to give an opinion, myself.

From time to time we do get apps in the approval queue that have a really grandoise background that probably isn't very thematic, but this is almost always from newbies - it goes hand in hand with their Legolas/Drizzt elite archer/warrior concept.

In the sense that you're playing a nobody who thinks he's Billy Badass - that's totally fine.  I know several people who are like that IRL.  

[Ath]

I have to disagree also.  One of my favorite characters was a former Byn Sergeant (got it approved by staff at the time) that wanted nothing to do with the Byn anymore and was just crazy, he was an old begger.  Well, a few people would toss him coins and the Bynners would all respect him, but he would actually get uncomfortable when he had too much money.  At the points I would junk or get rid of coins, by either buying spice, paying for whores, or whatever... just have one heck of a bender and he'd wake from a haze and not remember what happened.  I would purposely find money-sinks to get rid of the wealth.

My first character and 10+ large and didn't even have a clue what to do with it.  I ended up storing him because I was bored and didn't know what to do.  I was such a newb then.  I always try to find uses for extra coins, if anything, get others to do things for the coins.

[Delirium]

I've had a couple of new characters come up to my vets and act like they were the rulers of the world.....and I didn't even know their names.

This part I'd have to quibble with. Just because your character has been actively played for X amount of time, doesn't mean they suddenly know everyone who is everyone.

I've seen PCs who vastly outranked other PCs in-game get treated as less important because the less important PC had "been around" longer.

Gotta remember that virtual world. If you met a Senator NPC would you treat it with disrespect since doesn't have a visible footprint in the PC microcosm? Didn't think so.

[Desertman]

I've had a couple of new characters come up to my vets and act like they were the rulers of the world.....and I didn't even know their names.

This part I'd have to quibble with. Just because your character has been actively played for X amount of time, doesn't mean they suddenly know everyone who is everyone.

I've seen PCs who vastly outranked other PCs in-game get treated as less important because the less important PC had "been around" longer.

Gotta remember that virtual world. If you met a Senator NPC would you treat it with disrespect since doesn't have a visible footprint in the PC microcosm? Didn't think so.

They are dead. I am alive. I was right.

(They were just random nobody commoners. I absolutely agree with your statement about the virtual world and ranking officials etc.)

At the same time, respect earned through clout garnered through deeds does tend to have more power than respect earned through awarded (especially special app/staff sponsored) rank.

That's just common sense. You pretend to respect the guy who is a "Paper-Bag Leader", because you have to, and you truly respect the guy who is "Proven Leader". That's true in real life and in game.

[Nyr]

As for feared and respected, Marauder Moe has the right of it.  Once someone is perceived as one who is feared and respected, they are feared and respected.  There are a multitude of routes to get there, though.

This was kind of what I was afraid of.  To dramatize what I don't quite think you're saying, but still want to confirm anyway, is that the way to become popular is to attend the right parties, and the way to get into good parties is to be popular.  

I think you are misconstruing the answer I gave here as an answer to a question you didn't ask.

To elaborate on your dramatization and correct it, this is what your analogy should have been:
"At what point am I popular?"

At which point the dramatized answer would have been:
"You are popular when other people think you are popular."

You weren't asking how to become feared and respected...you were asking when it happens.  For that part of the matter, I agree with Marauder Moe, and that's why I wrote what I did.  Here is what he wrote:

I don't understand why there needs to be a "should" about it.

A character is feared and respected when they are feared and respected.  I don't think any other qualifications, time or otherwise, are necessary.

If you want to know how to become feared and respected, that's a different question, but you can answer a lot of it based on how you see it.  Reverse the question.  Who have you feared and respected IC in the past?  Why did you fear and respect them?

[AdamBlue]

I friggin' love Kudos. Those are how I know I'm doing a good job, and so far, I think I'm alright.

[Inks]

I once had a pc that would take credit for unpopular pcs he found dead. He was feared and respected long before he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag.


What makes a pc awesome for me is that I really feel it, I know the quirks of my pcs character and I stay ic with it all the time. My current pc is one, I have had maybe two or three other pcs I really got into and loved.

[Fujikoma]

Personally loved one of your PCs to pieces, Inks, ruined the Byn for me when he died, it was all downhill, albeit slowly, from there... I think it's been a year?

[Harmless]

being long-lived and having many contacts as well. Long-lived and having no contacts and being involved in nothing is the polar opposite of awesome, it's awful.

[Inks]

Personally loved one of your PCs to pieces, Inks, ruined the Byn for me when he died, it was all downhill, albeit slowly, from there... I think it's been a year?

Probably closer to two. Netin was one of the three, for sure <3

[Fujikoma]

Personally loved one of your PCs to pieces, Inks, ruined the Byn for me when he died, it was all downhill, albeit slowly, from there... I think it's been a year?

Probably closer to two. Netin was one of the three, for sure <3

<3 D'awwww...

Damnit. But yeah, many PCs I meet, I just, absolutely fall in love with their stories, personalities, the way they can maintain a conversation, emotes, for different reasons. Sometimes I even am quite fond OOCly of PCs my PC hates. That's always a rough position to be in, but I just have to force myself to stay in character.

[Tuannon]

I rarely think my characters are awesome, some of them have had their moments.. but most I think are pretty normal dudes doing pretty normal stuff.

Most of the time I'm happier to be a supporting character than the main focus of attention though, I think I used to serve as a good foil to Raleris Winrothol and a another a great lackey to Ceylara Borsail.. and Kharad Tor.. and the other Tor.. and the Tor after him.. and Mallor Tor.

[ibusoe]

I have to disagree also.  One of my favorite characters was a former Byn Sergeant (got it approved by staff at the time) that wanted nothing to do with the Byn anymore and was just crazy, he was an old begger.  Well, a few people would toss him coins and the Bynners would all respect him, but he would actually get uncomfortable when he had too much money.  At the points I would junk or get rid of coins, by either buying spice, paying for whores, or whatever... just have one heck of a bender and he'd wake from a haze and not remember what happened.  I would purposely find money-sinks to get rid of the wealth.

Yeah, I agree that the staff are usually not too conservative about that.  I've apped cool stuff in my character's background, and provided that it followed the Cardinal Rule and fit the game, staff have usually approved it.  I've only had one idea shot down, actually.

I didn't have the same luck as you did when I tried to play the "former Byn Sargeant" archetype.  People still pretty much expected me to start at the bottom of the Funnel, but perhaps in time social attitudes will change.

I'll concede you, Nyr and seidhr the point that I think players (see above) have more of a fascination with the rags to riches story than the current staff do.

I've seen PCs who vastly outranked other PCs in-game get treated as less important because the less important PC had "been around" longer.

Yeah, this is awful.  I think it's getting better though.

I think you are misconstruing the answer I gave here as an answer to a question you didn't ask.

To elaborate on your dramatization and correct it, this is what your analogy should have been:
"At what point am I popular?"

At which point the dramatized answer would have been:
"You are popular when other people think you are popular."

You weren't asking how to become feared and respected...you were asking when it happens.  For that part of the matter, I agree with Marauder Moe, and that's why I wrote what I did.  Here is what he wrote:

If you want to know how to become feared and respected, that's a different question, but you can answer a lot of it based on how you see it.  Reverse the question.  Who have you feared and respected IC in the past?  Why did you fear and respect them?

Thank you for your response. 

I actually have a pretty good handle on how to get fear, obedience or respect out of PCs.  It's NPCs that I think I have trouble with.  I think sometimes players and staff can disagree on how badassed a particular PC is.  I wanted to put some firm metrics on the situation so I was asking for ideas.  Unfortunately this is not an easy problem to solve.  I think the best solution seen in this thread so far is from Quell, who wrote:

"How long this takes depends on the interesting things you're aiming for. Killing mekillots would probably take a long time, but mastercrafting something spiffy doesn't really take a huge amount of playtime.
And then there's always goals that don't take stats or skills at all, though usually if they count as "awesome" they'll probably take some reputation. Getting a decent reputation might take a few months of regular play. "

To me, that makes total sense.  If your character showed up to a sewing circle, and the sewing matrons were like, "Who the fuck are you, you think you can sew?" and you flat-out master crafted something right there in front of them, I think the sewing matrons would admit you to the circle.  At that point, you're bad-assed.

Likewise with the example I made with the person trying to intimidate some prison guards, I agree with Quell that if you killed a mekillot right in front of the guards, they'd just move the heck out of your way after that. 

So in both cases if we needed to assign pass/fail ratings to someone, in both of those situations you'd pass as a badass. 

But it's a lot easier to intimidate a mercenary than a soldier, and it's a lot easier to intimidate a soldier than a templar, and it's a lot easier to intimidate a templar than a room full of templars.  And my question wasn't really 100% about intimidation, I can imagine that if one of the heroes from the Copper Wars walked up to a Salarr store, and was a bit short on cash, the Salarr dude would very quietly extend a discount to a known patriot. 

In playing with different dungeon masters over the years in a variety of games, this is one of the more difficult points for a dungeon master to get.  But for the moment I'm happy to have the simple metric that mekillot slaying and/or mastercrafting qualifies you as a person of importance, irrespective of whatever else you are or aren't accomplishing in your character's life.  It's a start.

People do this on occasion. It used to bother me a tiny bit, but it doesn't anymore.

Think of it this way: Not everyone is going to write a background about how they're a nobody that's never done anything of import. It would get immensely repetitive if every single character you ever made was like this. So once in a while you have a character with a background where they actually matter (at least within a specific subculture). If they have this it would be poor roleplaying to walk into the game acting like they were no one special just because OOCly they're new.

Sometimes you just have to play a character a little cocky because you don't want to play "Character who's never done anything important #578" even if they haven't done much in game yet. It's the nature of the beast.

[Nyr]

You can't put firm metrics on it.  You can try, but you'll either fail to come up with something definitive, or make it simplistic as above, where skillgriding = badassery. This is an RPI, so you have to take more into account than "skills" and include roleplay and the overall situation.

How do you command fear, obedience, or respect out of NPCs?  They have to be animated to elicit such reactions, unless you mean codedly...in which case, no, we do not have reputation code (yet).  For those animations, it depends on roleplay and the overall situation.  

You want to command fear from a soldier NPC that is animated?

Where are you?  In Allanak proper, close to other soldiers and easy reinforcements?  Unless you're literally glowing and about to toss out a fireball, there's not much reason to expect that fear.  Let's say you have this soldier subdued in your apartment.  The situation has changed.  They are in your control.  Even if they get word out to their mates, you hold that one life in your hand.  Let's move to a different locale...are you in the 'rinth?  Why's the soldier there, then?  That soldier is out of his element; he should be fearful even if he isn't showing it.  Are YOU from the 'rinth?  If not, you probably aren't on familiar ground, either, and you should be somewhat fearful, too--putting you both on the same level.  

I'm not sure how many situations I can provide here, but the underlying point is that it is not a simple metric.

[Desertman]

I command fear by all of my PC's being hard as fuck. Do you hear me Nyr? HARD AS FUCK WARRIORS EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!

Gitohnmuhlvlbro

[RogueGunslinger]

My PC generally becomes awesome when their armor is all in New stage, with bits in Used and Cracked.

[Jihelu]

Get to the point where people talk shit about you behind your back but treat you nice up front.

That means you've done good.

Or are just a noble.

[ibusoe]

I'm not sure how many situations I can provide here, but the underlying point is that it is not a simple metric.

Nor should you need to.  The examples you provided were fantastic, and more nuanced than any that I provided.

At the very least, this is an especially satisfying answer given that it shows you're not only applying logic to the situation, but you've given the situation better consideration than I'd be able to at a glance.

If I may, would you consider reviewing your policy?  I think your policy could be amended to add a bias in favor of a PC when interacting with an NPC.
My present assumption is that current policy favors NPCs for reasons that I'd be happy to outline if there are disagreements, but I'd be willing to concede that you and your staff have worked tirelessly to clear up any number of misconceptions on the part of players in recent weeks, based in large part upon the way that things used to be run.

Thanks in advance.

[seidhr]

There's no bias one way or the other, why would there be?

[Morrolan]

My character becomes awesome when Tek takes notice.

[Nyr]

If I may, would you consider reviewing your policy?  I think your policy could be amended to add a bias in favor of a PC when interacting with an NPC.

I'm afraid not.  What your character is and what your charcter says (and overall, how your character is played/roleplayed) will factor into IC reactions from animations.  The fact that you are a player will not factor into IC reactions.

[Taven]

Say for example, if your character's brother was locked up, and you wanted him free.  As you approach the outer gate of the prison, the two guards snap to attention.  They watch you expectantly.  Halting at a safe distance, you call:

"I ask that you free my brother, and we won't have any trouble!"

You pull your sword for dramatic effect.

As a noob, the guards can spot that your sword grip is weak whilst you aim the blade.  They hear your voice cracking in fear.  They laugh.  They call back.  "Put that away before you get hurt.  If you wish to see your brother, hire a noble to write a petition to the Templarate.  Perhaps they shall grant you an audience."  They laugh at you, you're beneath their notice.

I don't think they'd call back. I think they'd get in touch with their commanders, then murder your ass for daring to draw a sword on the Highlord's soldiers. Further, a quick death might not be good enough. It would make more of a political statement if they killed you slowly.

The real question is, should it be watching you get impaled and bugs devour your insides? Or would it be more entertaining to hear you beg for mercy as they slowly stretched you apart, before showing the cheering crowd in your blood? Perhaps it might be most entertaining to jeer at you, while you see how utterly pathetic you are with that sword in the area. Oh, and is it worth the time to kill your brother in front of you first, and punish you that way, as well? Hmm, decisions, decisions.

Allanak is not a friendly place. You draw a sword on a soldier, you just fucked up big time.

At level X, you look tough enough that they're actually intimidated.  They arrest you.  Oops.

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

At level Y, the guards are pretty intimidated of you.  One of them goes to fetch a Templar to hear you out.

Maybe you've got some social influence now. Maybe. That templar is going to tell you, regardless of your influence, that if you ever do that again, she will not only murder you, but make your brother wish he'd never been born. This status that you have is going to your head--No matter what friends you have, the tempalrs control the city.

If you're wise and you have this level of influence, you're not going to draw a sword in the middle of the street. You're going to Way the templar, pass a big sack of coin their way, and continue on your merry way.

At level Z, they're somewhat afraid of you.  They flee their post.

I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

I think the problem here is that this that your example is using blunt power. That's not how power and social status work in a city. You could be some Tor Senior Aide badass who killed a hundred people. They're still not going to flee their post. Because the templar they work for is a lot scarier then you are. And they know, without a doubt, that if they disobey orders and let your brother go--They're going to be murdered.

Furthermore, if you have any social clout at all, you know that too. Why the hell are you wasting time talking to these peons? You're got social status! So go bother the Sergeant or a templar or something.

At level A, they're really afraid of you.  One hurries to fetch your brother before you loose your temper.

Yeah, this pretty much describes the above. Though I'm not really sure why in your example a "lower level" has them fleeing their posts, while this level has them fetching someone.

In truth, they still wouldn't leave their post. They'd just use the Way, which is far more practical.

At level B, they're terrified and in awe.  They offer to fetch your brother for you, and then to join you on your quest!

Hah. You know you're being silly now, I don't have to say it.

My question is, how do you know when your character is at these levels?

The point is, this isn't a D&D game. There's no CHA stat to tell you when you can roll diplomacy and have the NPCs do whatever you want. Your character reaches these levels when they have enough friends and influence. There's not a magick formula for it.

[whitt]

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

.
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I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

[Taven]

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Yes, concern about dying now is a concern. But the guy drawing the sword in the middle of the street might not be taking into account the virtual world.

Let's say there IS a crazy, spiced-up rogue mul in the middle of the city:

• How did they even get past the gate guards and get into the city to begin with?
• Did they take into account the entire city full of soldiers who would arrest or kill them for being there?
• How many templars did they pass on the road to the jail?

(I've been assuming that this jail isn't the actual IC one located in the Templar's Quarter in my response to you and ibusoe, because that would make the entire situation even more ludicrous then it already is).

And furthermore, why the hell would you think they'd leave you alive if you did what they asked? They wouldn't ASK you to open the gate. They'd kill you and take the key. Why? Because you could be Waying someone AS WE SPEAK.

Your example is about as fantastical as the glowing magicker. So, maybe, all conditions met and somehow not being killed at this point, the soldiers would flee their posts. But I'm pretty sure it would just be to get reinforcements.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

In the past two years or so I've really toned down, played very casual, nonshocking, mundane lives (compared to what was possible for them) and I've been really happy with them, despite their lack of awesome.

[Kankfly]

They're never going to be intimidated by a drawn sword. Maybe they're intimidated by your political clout, but it doesn't matter how badass of a warrior you are. They might be only a couple guards, but they're part of a massive organization that controls the city with an iron fist. If you're better at combat, that only means it will take you longer to die in the arena.

So, pretty much at level X, you're going to end up the same as if you were level 0.

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I agree with Nyr, "unless you're literally glowing and about to toss a fireball, they won't flee their post".

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Not everyone is like the movies,where you become so badass you march up to a prison and demand them to free your brother, with a handgun. A sword is even worse than a handgun, not to mention they send in templars that'll just fry your ass.

Remember that though you may just see a few NPCs or whatever guarding the jail gates, ICly, it's guarded by other VNPCs as well. I'm pretty sure they'll just ... squish you.

[Jihelu]

You're right...
Take over Mantis tribes with evil powers or some shit then try.

[ibusoe]

Can't agree here.  Unless these soldiers have been replaced by automatons, they should be just as concerned with dying right now as opposed to dying later.  Perhaps that point is later for Lifesworn members of the militia, but... not wanting to die is about as extreme a motivator as anyone is likely to come across.

At some point the balance does shift, to use an old example which I believe is more than a year old, from "Yeah, I'll take my chances with you and hope that someone answers my Way" to "Nope.  That's Captain Hawk.  I'll kill Amos here next to me as soon as Hawk's gone and claim they both jumped me.  It's a longshot, but it's better than trying to stop this spiced up Mul".

While the organization may catch up to badass lawbreakers eventually, every single member of that organization is not a nameless faceless suit of armor and a sword.  They have lives they'd like to keep living.  They, like PCs, should react accordingly.

Whitt,

Thanks so much for writing this!  I think this summarizes the crux of my thesis here. 

Plenty of people don't understand that important people and large organizations can be strong-armed by the little guy once in a while.  Some of us have experience doing this in real life. 

On a personal note, I tend to resent people who always (in real life, not game related mind you) roll over the very second someone slightly scary leans on them.  It causes any number of social problems.  While Nyr's reasoning (earlier in this thread) seems fully solid in my point of view, there seem to be others here who don't understand that a templar, fireballs and minions aside, is someone with fragile neck vertebrae like the rest of us, who is unable to sustain loosing more than a couple of pints of blood any better than the rest of us could, who's friends, loved ones, allies and servants are all vulnerable to kidnap, and who has to sleep at some point.

In answer to what the staff asked, I think part of the dissatisfaction of some players (not me, I'm having a blast!) revolves around the inability to make changes or affect the game world, pursuant to other posts.  Some of the inability to make changes involves an assumption (on some people's part) that the second you make waves, NPCs are going to disapprove and are going to come swarming out of the woodwork to lay the smack down on you.  I think players should be encouraged to go beat up on NPCs a little more, with the understanding that the staff don't have a ton of time to support these kind of actions. 

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

[whitt]

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

Just also be ready to reap the whirlwind.  Because as was mentioned, the Way is a thing.  Reinforcements are a thing.  And when big organizations are made to look bad they may take out their immediate wrath on the NPC(s) that failed them, the "bad ass" will eventually receive a thumping and any less "bad ass" minions?  Will get thumped hard and quick.

[James de Monet]

Gah.  I just lost another long post to Safari mobile.  Thbbt.

The gist was: your character isn't awesome.  Ever.  Doesn't matter who they are.  Awesomeness is not inherent.  They might have awesome skills, or awesome friends, or an awesome bank account, or awesome charisma, or awesome luck, etc. etc. but there are situations in which all of those traits do not apply, and your character's awesome quotient goes down in that moment because of it.

How awesome people perceive your character as being is going to be a direct relation between how much is awesome about your character, and how many of those things the perceiver is aware of.



As to surviving troublemaking, just remember that the cardinal rule of making waves is: don't ever get silt on someone more powerful than you who doesn't have a personal reason to want you alive.

[sleepyhead]

I'd agree with you, James, if the definition of "awesome" was "great at everything." But my definition of "awesome" has more to do with how compelling a character is. That compelling quality can manifest as terrifying power, or influence, an amazing story, or just raw humanity and "realness."

[Molten Heart]

I'm not sure what is meant by "become awesome" but I'm going to take it as the moment when I begin to really have fun, thinking "This is awesome" that being, playing my character is awesome.

When my character starts to feel "real" like a real person, and keep playing just to see what happens next.

Depending on the character, this happens at different times. Sometimes it may not happen. Often times it happens more than once with a single character.

[James de Monet]

You guys seem to be describing a character that is OOCly awesome, but I don't think that is the OP's intent.

[Molten Heart]

Okay, so when my character gains notoriety for something about them, either something they've done or power they have.

[Taven]

On a personal note, I tend to resent people who always (in real life, not game related mind you) roll over the very second someone slightly scary leans on them.  It causes any number of social problems.  While Nyr's reasoning (earlier in this thread) seems fully solid in my point of view, there seem to be others here who don't understand that a templar, fireballs and minions aside, is someone with fragile neck vertebrae like the rest of us, who is unable to sustain loosing more than a couple of pints of blood any better than the rest of us could, who's friends, loved ones, allies and servants are all vulnerable to kidnap, and who has to sleep at some point.

Yes, a templar IS fragile. I've seen lots of them die. That NPC spider, mekillot, gith soldier, or magick thing of doom doesn't care that a templar is a templar. They're going to eat and or kill it, if they can. In terms of PCs, templars can die to assassinations and a distressing amount have died (historically) to rogue 'gickers. Yes, you can totally kill a templar.

But your example was about a PC in the middle of the road challenging NPCs in a city that they own and control. And... You're ignoring a lot of factors in your example. You said how you agreed with what some of Nyr said--I agree with exactly what he said in this post starting with "Where are you?".

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

But yeah, if you wish up, I think you should be able to kill an NPC, even a prominent one.  If you wish up, maybe 75% of the time you should be able to strong-arm an NPC, depending on circumstances.  If your character is somewhat badassed, low-ranking NPC should be somewhat in awe of your NPC.  And staff playing NPC should keep in mind that most of the time, these people will want to avoid trouble as much or more than a PC will. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

I've heard about NPC successes "against" NPCs. For example, a kadian died and left his guard outside of an apartment. A couple of PCs wanted to break in. So, they wished up and had one talk to the NPC to distract him, the other one unlocked the door, and then they just pretended that they'd had the key the whole time, and waltzed in. But... Was there a 75% chance they'd be successful? Nope. It was highly variable.

But notice also that they TRICKED the NPC. They didn't try to go head to head with the NPC. Sure, that could have been an option. Maybe they could have tried to threaten him--But that would have given him time to Way someone. Maybe they could have tried to kill him or knock him out--But maybe the apartment keeper downstairs would have heard, or one of the many vNPCs that lived there would have heard. The answer to everything isn't always brute strength. Yes, that CAN be the answer--But there's a lot of other options, and they can make more sense and be more effective.

[ibusoe]

You guys seem to be describing a character that is OOCly awesome, but I don't think that is the OP's intent.

My question related to NPC reactions.  I'm starting to get that sink feeling that my perceptions are based on pre-reorg experience, LOL

As far as I'm concerned, the level of (PC-based) roleplay in the game is on average hovering between the B+ and A- level, which is insane if you think about it.  I think it's the Millenials.  Normally us veterans are stuck babysitting a bunch of noobs, but it seems like the millenials are "getting it" better than we did when we were learning to play.  I'd suppose that the fact that they've grown up using social media is giving them some kind of an edge that I didn't have. 

It's the NPC where I've problems in the past, but I haven't tried to do anything artistic with the NPCs in a long time.  Who knows?  I might need to investigate more.  Certainly having a set of standards can only help to guide decision making. 

If you read what Nyr wrote, he seems to understand the situation better than I do so it's comforting to know that behind the scenes, the authorities are doing their jobs.  And for people who are unhappy with the way that an NPC reacts, they can always put in a complaint.  I happen to be having a good experience.

I tend to write open-ended questions though, because I would want my threads to turn into "hang-out" threads where people can just post stuff off of the top of their head.  I find a lot of gems this way, even if the stuff was a bit off topic. 

As to surviving troublemaking, just remember that the cardinal rule of making waves is: don't ever get silt on someone more powerful than you who doesn't have a personal reason to want you alive.

You're certainly not without a point, but there should definitely be a way that I as a player can ascertain my character's worth.

I should know how awesome (or not) my character is, as should the staff.  My character himself may not know, and hijinks may ensue.  But players behind the (player and non-player) characters shouldn't be confused on this issue.

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

Oh no, I'm actually agreeing with you.  We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

Unfortunately we already have put a number on it.  You might think of it as the mekillot rating.  Somebody who can kill a mekillot, is going to almost always be intimidating to somebody who can't kill a mekillot. 

If I can't kill a mekillot and I want to intimidate someone, I just need to bring a mekillot killer with me.  I can try to go it with less, but then I'm essentially bluffing.  Which is fine too, that's what we have staff to resolve. 

[Refugee]

When other PCs seek him out for adventure!

[Taven]

The most powerful thing you have is not your PC's combat skills. It's not their coded badassery. It's their social influence. You really want your brother released? Have friends in high places, coins for bribes, or all of the above.

Oh no, I'm actually agreeing with you.  We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric. 

You can't even begin to put a number on it, because it's too complex. I don't think you can say "usually 75% depending on circumstances". Because circumstances are 100% of everything. And there's a good number of NPCs who are more powerful then you and just don't care.

Unfortunately we already have put a number on it.  You might think of it as the mekillot rating.  Somebody who can kill a mekillot, is going to almost always be intimidating to somebody who can't kill a mekillot. 

If I can't kill a mekillot and I want to intimidate someone, I just need to bring a mekillot killer with me.  I can try to go it with less, but then I'm essentially bluffing.  Which is fine too, that's what we have staff to resolve. 

I think you're still missing my point.

Using social influence to bring a mekillot-killer with you is indeed social influence. But it's probably only going to help if you need to kill a mekillot. Otherwise, it's a like trying to use a hammer to cook a pie. It's probably not going to turn out right.

We just need a way to measure this stuff so that it doesn't entirely hinge on favoritism.  Of course favoritism is bound to impact things like this, but that's the point of assigning a metric.

Well, I disagree that we need a metric to account for this.

I think that even if we did try to have a system, there's no way that all the variables could be accounted for. Making and implementing such a system would be a nightmare. I personally think it's impossible, though if you want to take a crack at it, I'd be willing to read a proposal.

[Rokal]

I've been doing some thinking on this.

This isn't going to be about MY character. But these are things that make a character awesome to me - and not my own. I'd rather be surrounded by awesome, interesting characters, then focus on making my own awesome.


A character becomes awesome when they do that one thing you didn't expect the character to succeed at, and my own was a part of it, even if small.

A character becomes awesome when you're legitamtly invested in their story and can feel for the character and sympathzie with them.

A character becomes awesome because of their journey, not their end goals. Its who they became from their adventures and struggles! Learning the stories behind a character or journeying with them alongside them? Totally awesome.

A character becomes awesome when they're having clear struggles with themselves - morality. Right and wrong. The struggle of taboos and such, and they bring them to light. They show stress, anixity.  Questioning themsleves if murdering that person for a piece of bread was the right thing to do. I do not see zalanthans as completely heartless. People would still consider such things as "If I steal from this guy, he might not be able to feed the kids he has." .. Everyone has a moral standard. For example the thief that has no problem stealing coin from anyone, but then goes out of his/her way to bake and cook food for themselves, and then  when realizing they have too much. Leaves some in the pockets of those starving to 'even things out'.

.. I could go on and on, i've many more brewing in my mind, but these are some of the most prominent ones.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm thinking awesome in terms of the character's story and you all are thinking about political power and how good a dude is in a fight. Vanilla and chocolate.