A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Jingo]

I just want my goddamn breakfast burrito.

[Inks]

Patuk's elf docs were legit, fyi.

[Harmless]

Because I had so many good memories in this game, I will still give it a try now and then, but I've been tuning out steadily for several months. Unlike maybe some other players who aren't playing as much lately, I drifted off because I became more interested in other things to do with my free time (hell, I was even going to a gym for a few months) and less so because of some kind of anger or feeling of rebellion.

Now that I learned through glancing at this thread that Talia and Cav are taking a break, I feel like my break couldn't have been better timed.

I still participate in the GDB and try to start/participate in an interesting discussion now and then, but I think the number of meaningful hours in game I've clocked over the past month is zero, even though I am waiting on an extended subguild app at the moment.

As for the topic at hand, some good things were said early in the thread; I think given how many times I've had role apps rejected, been denied promotions or leadership roles, etc, I might be bitter, but honestly I just haven't tried as hard as some other players have for those spots, so I don't feel like I am allowed to be totally bitter. The standstill of my RP is partly my fault, and partly the fault of a difficult system designed to filter the quality from the noise. I don't get paranoid about it and suspect that staff are aiming to mistreat me or single me out. At times I do get a little depressed that despite playing roughly 6-7 years, I still only have 2 karma (and got my second karma last year, for the first time), and that despite 35+ PCs I've never made a single one that amounts to more than a common crook, a stooge, a lackey, or a grunt. Since this thread is about how "red tape" and beauracracy is what makes the game suck, maybe all my denied requests and inability to get certain past PCs promoted -- at least before immortal-controlled or spawned mobs killed them off -- counts as a part of that? Or maybe I'd just be a genuinely bad leader, I dunno.

In general, though, I have been willing to accept staff's answers to my various role apps, requests asking about promotion, etc. Over the years I also have seen quite a lot of these kinds of responses: a.) I didn't file my requests correctly, b.) I didn't communicate appropriately, c.) I haven't been playing as much or as hard as other players have been, d.) I haven't read the documentation/background adequately. It's been at the point now for years where I just expect these responses and barely even read them when they come back.

And by the way, I have been very quiet lately on the request front. No current beefs over anything, just a general sense of very, very low expectations, and very little willingness now to even put myself out there in an attempt to get something. That feeling not only contributes to why I decide to take long breaks, but why I don't "try hard" once I'm in game and have an involved character.

To any staff reading this, don't worry. I'm happy with arma, I'm just also not playing it -- it's likely because I've been taking a step back that I feel positively at all towards the game, to get away from the BS. I have no current rants or fucks to give, but Malken did put himself out there by bringing up the topic, and I wanted to support him and others in his boat by sharing my feelings about players being "held back" by staff's current system of management... so there it is.

[Nyr]

- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!

I didn't think you'd randomly lost it or anything like that.  I thought it was a little funny that you were being nonspecific and hyperbolic at the same time, so I responded in kind by naming the thread that.  I meant to bring some levity to the discussion, nothing more nefarious than that   Like I said earlier, I think that if one has concerns, they are legitimate and could/should be discussed...they just were taking away from another thread.

The spirit of Desertman's idea is good. It's been done before, in fact.  Whether it was successful or not isn't my place to say.  However, keep in mind that the decision to outright ban someone isn't made lightly.  As the reasons for each ban vary case by case, so do decisions whether or not to attempt to reach out and repeal a ban in place.

Furthermore, a number of bans are the result of the nth attempt at settling a disagreement failing to achieve satisfactory results by more "mature" means.

The onus is on staff to be professional.

While it is important for staff to be professional, your wording (unsure if it's intended this way) suggests that the player in the equation is excused from a similar expectation, which I couldn't disagree with more. Treating someone else horribly shouldn't ever happen unless mutual consent is given and one party is being well compensated for the experience.

I can give more information on that.  We previously posted about having a ban amnesty at the beginning of 2013. 

Results: 
6 players responded addressing that directly at the time (2 responded much later, and only one of those was actually banned, but that's not related to the stats). 
Of those 6, one was a GDB return request.  It was not granted at the time, but it was enabled later on after some more review.
Of the remaining 5, only one was rejected outright, for reasons mentioned below in general.  The rest were allowed to return.

I think it generally went pretty well.

The same probably can go for now--you can submit an appeal request or e-mail to the Producers regarding a ban.  The cases where that won't be granted are pretty clear-cut.

[Beethoven]

This is going to be a bit...rambling, I guess, so I'm sorry.

I also want to preface this by saying that I'm not a "go-getter" sort of player. I don't have the imagination for it. I enjoy playing flavor characters and minions that hopefully help "go-getters" achieve their goals.  I'm perfectly happy having my commoner scrubs live meaningless lives before dying in obscurity. I don't think I've ever even tried to effect lasting change, so I personally have no idea how easy, hard, or utterly futile it is. That having been said...

I think both players and staff would agree that there is a pervasive perception, true or false, that Armageddon is not (or is no longer) conducive to player-driven change, small or large, and that one runs into an impossible wall of bureaucracy, red tape, and naysaying when one tries to accomplish that sort of change. I'm sure this idea is frustrating to staff members like Mordiggan who go out of their way to facilitate player-driven plots and change. I can definitely see that. You work hard to accomplish X, and people don't notice, they just keep complaining about the lack of X. So I can understand why the dialogue so often goes like this:

Players: We want to be able to make our mark on the game world!

Staff: You already can! I recently helped players accomplish [stuff].

And maybe it's true that many players hear over and over that the game world is static, that players aren't capable of altering it in any meaningful way, and don't even give it a try before joining in the complaints, thus turning the criticism into a self-fulfilling prophecy. And maybe others, when sharing their personal anecdotes about how they were shut down when trying to accomplish something, are leaving out important information. Maybe all of those things are true, but despite that...I can't imagine this idea of a static gameworld where players who want to change things end up banging into a bureaucratic wall over and over stems solely from players' imaginations. This is a very specific perception that is not going away, and I would think it's there for a reason, even people tend to exaggerate about it.

Staff can address these criticisms however they see fit, of course. But I do wonder if, saying "this is already possible, you're just not trying" (or something else that feels like being told that) is the ideal response. Surely, for something like this that keeps coming up over and over, the better response would be "All right, we hear you. We're already doing [stuff], but we'd like to make you feel that you're more able to leave your mark. How can we facilitate that?"

Because while I may not be a goal-oriented player, the last thing I want to happen is to have this perception, true or false, drive away goal-oriented players. Maybe instead of telling players they're just wrong or not seeing the whole picture or whatever, staff can communicate with players and try to change the way Armageddon is viewed, in a positive way.

[Desertman]

- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!

I didn't think you'd randomly lost it or anything like that.  I thought it was a little funny that you were being nonspecific and hyperbolic at the same time, so I responded in kind by naming the thread that.  I meant to bring some levity to the discussion, nothing more nefarious than that  Like I said earlier, I think that if one has concerns, they are legitimate and could/should be discussed...they just were taking away from another thread.

The spirit of Desertman's idea is good. It's been done before, in fact.  Whether it was successful or not isn't my place to say.  However, keep in mind that the decision to outright ban someone isn't made lightly.  As the reasons for each ban vary case by case, so do decisions whether or not to attempt to reach out and repeal a ban in place.

Furthermore, a number of bans are the result of the nth attempt at settling a disagreement failing to achieve satisfactory results by more "mature" means.

The onus is on staff to be professional.

While it is important for staff to be professional, your wording (unsure if it's intended this way) suggests that the player in the equation is excused from a similar expectation, which I couldn't disagree with more. Treating someone else horribly shouldn't ever happen unless mutual consent is given and one party is being well compensated for the experience.

I can give more information on that.  We previously posted about having a ban amnesty at the beginning of 2013.  

Results:  
6 players responded addressing that directly at the time (2 responded much later, and only one of those was actually banned, but that's not related to the stats).  
Of those 6, one was a GDB return request.  It was not granted at the time, but it was enabled later on after some more review.
Of the remaining 5, only one was rejected outright, for reasons mentioned below in general.  The rest were allowed to return.

I think it generally went pretty well.

The same probably can go for now--you can submit an appeal request or e-mail to the Producers regarding a ban.  The cases where that won't be granted are pretty clear-cut.

I'm going to respond to this since I was referenced.

This isn't what I'm talking about. (Not that what I'm talking about nor my opinion matters to anyone here in any way.)

Wrong or right, the people who you are giving the above option to aren't going to view it as the Staff here trying to get them back as valued players.

They will view it as you telling them, "You can come back and kiss my ass and if you do it well enough I will allow you to play my game.".

That is how that will be seen. Wrongly or rightly, that is the option you are presenting them with in their minds. I'm sure you understand that. That is the olive branch you are presenting when you think of who you are presenting it to.

Maybe it's more important to make them feel like they were "put in their place" than it is to get them back as veteran players. I don't know.

I'm sure you don't view it that way. But I want to make sure you understand that the people you are presenting it to DO view it that way.

They aren't going to kiss your ass to be allowed back into YOUR game. (especially you specifically, which I'm sure you are aware of)

I'm not saying you are right or they are right. I'm just pointing out the reality.

The option you are presenting them with isn't going to go anywhere because it's not really a genuine offer in the minds of the people you are saying you are giving it to.

If we genuinely care about pulling back those veteran players more than four or five at a time...we need to do a little more than look at it from only our point of view.

But, maybe we don't care enough to do that. I don't know. I'm just a player who wants back quality players.

It is important to consider who the offer is going to when deciding how you want to present it. The offer being presented now in the format it is being presented in now WILL be received as, "If you come back and kiss my Nyr-Ass and admit you are my bitch, you can play my game.". That's not going anywhere on the production front in terms of accomplishing a goal.

[whitt]

I think both players and staff would agree that there is a pervasive perception, true or false, that Armageddon is not (or is no longer) conducive to player-driven change, small or large, and that one runs into an impossible wall of bureaucracy, red tape, and naysaying when one tries to accomplish that sort of change.

It's my opinion, as neither a noob nor a crusty-vet, that most I hear with this opinion are either (a) Not actively playing, so just gdb'ing hearsay or (b) have played Arm for so long that the their idea of "trying again" is some 6-8 karma spec app that requires staff intervention to start and regular staff-interaction because they have a specific area of the game world they want to influence in a very specific way.  When their idea is not approved, for whatever reason or doesn't receive adequate support the above is why.

Oh.  I should also mention (c) a new player that has been told by either (a) or (b) that it's not even worth trying. 

My experience has been a bit different over the past year plus.  I've watched really awesome RPTs happen at pretty regular intervals.  I've participated in player-driven initiatives (as part of more than one clan) that left lasting impacts on the game world that aren't going anywhere without an equally significant effort by an equally large group of players.  I have witnessed the sudden vacuum that occurs when a clan staff vanishes because Life Happens.  I've had the month of downtime where I wondered where everyone went.  I'll be straightforward and say that the MMH process, given the average lifespan of a PC, seems virtually impossible to attain with any members that started the process being alive at the end. But, that said, it is a new process.  Until someone makes it through it's all new work with no template to build from.  I'd expect it, like other process, to go faster in time.  But, all of that said, the bureaucracy and process don't cause that.  The process is in place to make sure one player has the same chance to make a change to the game world as anyone else.  Communicate.  Discuss.  Be willing to accept No for an answer.  Be willing to move on to next Goal.  And no... that "same chance" is not zero.

All of that adds up to me, as a player, being really jaded toward those who hold the above opinion, especially those that last played a year (or often more) ago, but still spew rhetoric.  I tend to read it as "I'm a special snowflake" and "Give me what I want or I'll take my ball and leave". 

[Rathustra]

I started playing long after 'the good old days' and became staff deep within the years where everyone was waiting for Arm 2. I came on board as a bureaucrat - I knew from my interview that staffing would involve managing the request tool, animating and (rarely) building.

It was great! I loved filing character reports for unclanned indies. It was a pleasure to give them an electronic high-five for all the cool stuff these players, players who I identified with as someone who rarely played in clans and had 0 karma for the majority of my Arm career, were up to. I still enjoy answering these (much rarer) requests because they're more fun to go over than the analysis involved in a clan leader's report.

Today I can say that Storytellers have a much more 'exciting' life - the balance of requests to building and animating is completely different. Whereas I spent my ST days fixing typos or updating old areas, a ST in my clan group can look forward to combining our variety of scripts and tools into increasingly creative ways.

But I'm still a product of the Armageddon I played. I favor stability and gradual progress and couldn't imagine the sort of stuff that past staff got up to. We still have to dig up and figure out what some of the garbage past Staff built and didn't properly document is related to. There are things in the wastes that literally none of us know the story behind.

I'm also someone who never played high-karma or high-trust roles as a player. I don't believe in special treatment, 'favoured' players or having relationships with players about the game outside of the request tool. All special roles I'll ever authorize will be advertised like any other role call.

[Ath]

Indie team loves reading Character Reports, send them to us!  I have seen Character Reports from non-sponsored roles drop off as of late.  You may think they mean nothing, but I know I like seeing them as I can only watch you so much.

I also agree with Rath, I have never played a Templar or Noble or really any major sponsored role.  I have played a minor role here or there, but nothing that could really make too much of a difference.

[Nyr]

stuff

When it boils down to it, if someone got banned permanently, they did something that the staff at the time thought was deserving of that ban.  If they want more than staff right then/right now saying "we are willing to listen to an appeal", they are probably expecting too much. 

There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:

• We banned you in the past few weeks/months.  Whatever you did, you just did it.  You probably haven't changed, and our opinion of whatever you did hasn't changed, nor has enough time passed for us to feel okay giving you another chance.  Sorry.
• You were banned for stalking/harassing other players or staff.  Uncool.

That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

[Beethoven]

I actually alluded to the fact that some players may just be repeating the opinion because of hearsay and the reputation the game already has, and might not have actually tried to change things themselves. And you're right, people may be ridiculously ambitious as well. That's another possibility.

But I do think it's a problem that Arm has that reputation in the first place. I know it's easy to say that everybody who holds the opinion that the gameworld is too static is just wrong, but even if they are, I feel like that perception still needs to be addressed beyond "I did this and that to facilitate a player-run plot, so it's all in your mind." But I'm not the person to figure out exactly how to address it, because I'm not a mover and shaker.

[Desertman]

I'm going to respond to this since I was referenced.

This isn't what I'm talking about. (Not that what I'm talking about nor my opinion matters to anyone here in any way.)

Wrong or right, the people who you are giving the above option to aren't going to view it as the Staff here trying to get them back as valued players.

They will view it as you telling them, "You can come back and kiss my ass and if you do it well enough I will allow you to play my game.".

That is how that will be seen. Wrongly or rightly, that is the option you are presenting them with in their minds. I'm sure you understand that. That is the olive branch you are presenting when you think of who you are presenting it to.

Maybe it's more important to make them feel like they were "put in their place" than it is to get them back as veteran players. I don't know.

I'm sure you don't view it that way. But I want to make sure you understand that the people you are presenting it to DO view it that way.

They aren't going to kiss your ass to be allowed back into YOUR game. (especially you specifically, which I'm sure you are aware of)

I'm not saying you are right or they are right. I'm just pointing out the reality.

The option you are presenting them with isn't going to go anywhere because it's not really a genuine offer in the minds of the people you are saying you are giving it to.

If we genuinely care about pulling back those veteran players more than four or five at a time...we need to do a little more than look at it from only our point of view.

But, maybe we don't care enough to do that. I don't know. I'm just a player who wants back quality players.

It is important to consider who the offer is going to when deciding how you want to present it. The offer being presented now in the format it is being presented in now WILL be received as, "If you come back and kiss my Nyr-Ass and admit you are my bitch, you can play my game.". That's not going anywhere on the production front in terms of accomplishing a goal.

whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

Alright then.

[whitt]

But I do think it's a problem that Arm has that reputation in the first place.

Understood and agreed.  Didn't mean my response as a jab.

More as a pointing out that a lot of the most vocal supporters of that reputation seem, to me as a still relatively new player, to be people who are (in political terms) still complaining about the Democratic party's support for secession and slavery while hailing the Republicans as the Party of Lincoln.   They've never tried to do what their complaining about with current staff.  They're still fixated on things that happened, sometimes, as much as a decade ago.  When they stopped playing.

[seidhr]

Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

[Narf]

Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

[Eyeball]

I'll just repeat something I've said for a while now; I think it would really help to put greed back into the game. Tone down the crafting subguilds. Give people ways to demonstrate status and wealth (e.g. own homes, commoner titles and privileges that can be "won" (e.g. bought) from nobles and templars, steel weapons slightly available again, make it possible to purchase an exemption from the law against literacy, etc.) and characters will compete and kill for them. Bribery, robbery, raiding, clan pay, chasing after noble patronage.. all will come back in force.

[LauraMars]

Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

its just underlined

[Ath]

I'll just repeat something I've said for a while now; I think it would really help to put greed back into the game. Tone down the crafting subguilds. Give people ways to demonstrate status and wealth (e.g. own homes, commoner titles and privileges that can be "won" (e.g. bought) from nobles and templars, steel weapons slightly available again, make it possible to purchase an exemption from the law against literacy, etc.) and characters will compete and kill for them. Bribery, robbery, raiding, clan pay, chasing after noble patronage.. all will come back in force.

My question here for you is have you tried any of this?  A Noble or Templar could easily give you a title of "Kank Wrangler" but that doesn't mean anyone is going to care, unless it was backed by the Highborn.  As for becoming a Noble, that just isn't possible within the documentation/culture of Allanak.  I mean, unless you can beat a Black Robe in a card game and win a Title or if Tek decides it.  Have you ever approached a Noble and said, hey... I have this great idea to make money and steal from all these peoples, I just need your help.. blah blah blah.  If I was playing a Noble and if some commoner came to me with a way that I could make some coins and then blame the commoner and have them killed if they screw up, yes I would do it!  Who is going to believe the pissant of a commoner over my word?  No one.

What I'm saying is so many of you come up with great ideas and think you can't do them... does it hurt to ask?  Character reports are a great way to pass an idea by staff and for them to give you their opinions on it.  I know if I answer a Character Report for Indies and you have an idea, I'll try to give you some sort of feedback on how to do it in a way it would work IC and with Staff, or maybe I'll point you in another direction.  I won't tell you exactly how to do things, that's not my job, but I can at least give you information within documentation and tell you if it plausible or not.

[Desertman]

I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

10/10 - Would be unofficially too-cool-for-school again

[Malken]

Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

If you meant me, I haven't played in exactly a year and a half -IC-, give or take.

If you meant Nyr, pretty sure he still plays!

[Eyeball]

I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

Just not the same as hard-coded titles and privileges. Like being able to sit in a special section of the Arena stands, not the noble section but still separated from stinking riffraff like the Byn, breeds and 'rinthers. Like having NPCs recognize you and address you by the title. Like winning an important arena championship and appearing on an official mural. Etc.

[Desertman]

I've been given two unofficial yet public titles by sponsored roles in the past with my commoners.

Just not the same as hard-coded titles and privileges. Like being able to sit in a special section of the Arena stands, not the noble section but still separated from stinking riffraff like the Byn, breeds and 'rinthers. Like having NPCs recognize you and address you by the title. Etc.

I like the idea of coded titles that give you coded access to special perks.

(Kind of like how being in a noble/merchant House gives you access to special apartments in town other riffraff can't get into even though you are all technically commoners?)

But yeah, more of that would be cool.

[Narf]

Well if we're talking about people with strong opinions regarding the game who quit playing a long time ago, this is the perfect thread for it!

You should probably include the link part of that hyperlink.

If you meant me, I haven't played in exactly a year and a half -IC-, give or take.

If you meant Nyr, pretty sure he still plays!

I've become so used to being referenced to other threads with underlined words over the years that it's now just second nature to assume that all underlined words referencing a thread will be a link to another thread.

It was just a mistake in thinking seidhr was speaking of yet another thread.

[AdamBlue]

HOW IN THE GLORIOUS FUCK DID MY HALF-HEARTED ON RAT SPAWN TWO THREADS WITH MULTIPLE PAGES
JESUS CHRIST

[Iiyola]

I'm not even sure why I'm still reading this. It's the same stuff all over again with each page. Just play the game, have fun. Or don't and find something else to do.