A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Renenutet]

Since it apparently didn't belong in the former thread:


Many many years ago a clan was once created because a player lied to staff about how they were going to die of cancer and wanted to play this limited-time awesome-cool-clan as part of their bucket list.

That clan is still in the game.


Modern Staff: Dedicated volunteers bringing a professional standard of conduct to the management and growth of the game world, or heartless orphan-baby-eaters who are out to get you?

I've only eaten two babies so far...

Still, if you'd like to send in a request about this matter, perhaps we might find some more information about what you're talking about?

We can send in staff requests to get babies eaten?

Yours or someone else's?

[Malken]

Malken, you're posting bitching so much that it almost looks like you're playing again.

I'm trying to cram 352 pages of Japanese history for my midterm Wednesday. Any excuses not to study is a great excuse!

Also,

[Nergal]

IMO, keeping players engaged is equally as important if not moreso as keeping staff engaged, for a couple of reasons:

1) There are far more players than staff (who are also players, but for the sake of this thread, let's just call us staff for now)
2) Without players, there would be no staff, and there would also be no game

So with that in mind, we are absolutely open to receiving advice, ideas, and criticism. The problem is when this criticism is nonconstructive or hyperbolic, or comes off as insulting, or as an attempt to divide and conquer. We can't improve if conversations are cluttered, or lost in the pagerolling void of RAT, or players don't bring up their concerns clearly and directly in some form. We can do literally nothing if disgruntled former players decide to start lying about their situations via other means of communication and current players drink from the poisoned well. So while staff can be, should be, and ultimately are committed to helping players have fun, and keeping them interested in and engaged with the game, we also need some open and honest talk from the players who feel slighted or hurt by staff decisions. We need to read clear thoughts rather than vague ideas. We need to see suggestions for improvement instead of accusations and insults. And I'm not singling out any player in particular for doing something bad, and I think this thread has been fine so far. On a similar tack I hope players will treat staff with the same respect (and they largely do).

I think our game has seen a net positive improvement over the years, it has become OOCly more fair to its players, and it's my wish that the game gets better at accommodating everyone.

[Desertman]

I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.

I think if those players do come back they should have their account marked in some way so that the pair of staffers who were designated to bring them back are the ones who handle them and their requests for their first year back. (or some other length of time)

You can call these staffers the, "Public Relations" staffers. They are new fresh faces that haven't developed a "persona" with past scorned players and their job would be to try and mend up old relationships. Old players coming back wouldn't be facing someone they have been taught to hate, and they wouldn't even have to deal with them for a long time after they come back. The staffers who took on this role would be two people who were truly interested in being these emissaries and not two people who have learned to hate these old players due to past petty arguments.

Basically...it would be a clean slate for returning players who are working on a truly clean slate with "clean staffers" who haven't been taught or haven't learned to have a pre-conceived opinion about the players.

Will some of those players screw up no matter how many new chances you give them? Yes. But, will some of them redeem themselves and possibly build a new relationship if given enough time in game without having to "face old demons"? I would wager some will.

It might not be a perfect idea but it would probably get us further than both sides just pointing fingers and calling the other side liars back and forth into infinity, which is what we have now and it accomplishes nothing.

[Malken]

The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

[Desertman]

The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

[wizturbo]

I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.

I agree with this in concept, but would go about it completely differently.  Spending a bunch of time and effort writing emails and extending an olive branch doesn't really create value for the returning player...

Why not have these two staff sponsor a role call that targets inactive/retired players instead?  Handle the role call, and then support the roles...  No problem with making the sponsorship temporary too, so it doesn't have to be very long commitment.  Here's an example of what that might look like:

Dear Former Player,

Something wicked is brewing in Armageddon, and we want you to be part of it!  

We have a secret role call going on right now, and it's only for returning players.   Why only returning players you might ask?  Well, we need some players who aren't attached to their current roles, and don't have any previous dispositions towards existing characters.  I.E. players who don't have any problems with getting their hands dirty

Applicants beware, that while these roles will be capable of living full and interesting lives, things might get a bit...bloody... so apply at your own risk.  

These roles have no karma requirements, but some karma-only options are available.

<Insert a bunch of rules, contact information, etc, etc....>

Personally, something like this would more likely to entice me back into playing the game than getting an email from a random new staffer I've never worked with trying to smooth over issues that might be years old by now.

[manipura]

I think you should take a single or possibly a pair of staffers and appoint them with the duty of reaching out to past scorned players in an attempt to get those players to come back.

I agree with this in concept, but would go about it completely differently.  Spending a bunch of time and effort writing emails and extending an olive branch doesn't really create value for the returning player...

Why not have these two staff sponsor a role call that targets inactive/retired players instead?  Handle the role call, and then support the roles...  No problem with making the sponsorship temporary too, so it doesn't have to be very long commitment.  Here's an example of what that might look like:

Dear Former Player,

Something wicked is brewing in Armageddon, and we want you to be part of it!  

We have a secret role call going on right now, and it's only for returning players.   Why only returning players you might ask?  Well, we need some players who aren't attached to their current roles, and don't have any previous dispositions towards existing characters.  I.E. players who don't have any problems with getting their hands dirty

Applicants beware, that while these roles will be capable of living full and interesting lives, things might get a bit...bloody... so apply at your own risk.  

These roles have no karma requirements, but some karma-only options are available.

<Insert a bunch of rules, contact information, etc, etc....>

This would really only work for inactive/retired players who still lurk around on the GDB though.

[wizturbo]

This would really only work for inactive/retired players who still lurk around on the GDB though.

I meant for it to be both a GDB posting, and an email blast to inactive account emails.

[Ath]

You know, I am a bit offending by this.  I'm just going to be completely honest.  My job on the Indies Team is to represent the Indie Groups that are trying to make their way to Minor Merchant House status.  Not only this, but I have also been working closely with Nyr and Rathurstra on ways we can improve on the Player Clan system as a whole, a system that is designed to allow for players to make a mark on the world and create a clan from scratch.  It isn't easy, you do have to jump through some hoops, but it shouldn't be easy.  Nothing is easy in Zalanthas.

When I first came on staff back in 2007, there was no building allowed, no plots allowed, and basically no code changes allowed, because of the work happening on Arm Reborn.  This was understandable, why put effort into a game that is going to be closed for a new one.  The only way a player had the ability to put a mark on the world was by the Mastercrafting System, which back then it was harder to get those approved through staff.

Now players have the ability to work towards making a player clan, right now only MMH, but there is talks and things we are doing to try to expand this out to other player groups that might not be interested in MMHs, but that takes time and effort to work out.  Plus the current Player Groups that are trying to become a MMH are really helping us develop this and allowing us to work out the kinks.  (Thank you to the players that have assisted with this, you know who you are.)

Next we have Plots... Staff driven and created plots that we come up with when we as Staff members go through a process of writing up the plot, vetting it, making sure we have all avenues worked out, and then implement.  There is some time and effort that goes into these, and there are some going on right now!  Shit, I have loved to see the scared looks on peoples faces when the recent one started!  FLYING FUCKEN SPIDERS!  WTF?!  Oh, there is an end to a plot, and that end COULD (keyword here is could) have a mark on the world.  Then you have Player driven plots that can have Staff support, but at the discretion of staff.  Before Player Driven Plots were ONLY player driven, Staff support would only come in the reaction of the world.  Now Staff is more able to assist in such plots.  I can quickly count a handful right now that are Player Driven plots that could have an affect on the game world.

Oh!  Now we have building!  Wait, buildings now have roofs on them?  Staff is working so freaken hard to make this world better than ever.

Check your facts before you go talking about how players can't do things to change the word.  I see them doing it all the time and are now enabled to do so.

Maybe I am taking this a bit personal, but my main job is to make sure players can make their mark on this game world, and damn it... I'm rooting for one of them to do it.

[Lizzie]

The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Perhaps that's true but there are some former players, both staff and non-staff, who have trashed other players (non-staff) publically in other parts of the game-playing web - personally, I wouldn't want to learn that I'm playing with any of those people. I'd rather play with a whopping 10 players on average, six of whom are noobs and only one true veteran, than have even three of those players who have made very public efforts to insult players and staff by name in other fora, even if those three were hand-picked by Nyr himself and double-approved by both Sanvean and Halaster.

Why would you want to invite back people who have made it incredibly clear that they can't stand you?

[wizturbo]

Ath's post...

In my opinion, player's having the ability to make a meaningful impact on the world is better today than it ever has been in the many years I've been playing.  But as you said yourself, this capability was virtually non-existent until recently, so while the process has certainly improved it still feels like it has a long way to go.  With that said, it seems like it's on the right trajectory towards that continued improvement...so kudos there!

I think all the big picture work you're doing on this is great, but if you want to constructive criticism, I'd suggest making it easier for aspiring indie clans to get real estate sooner, either by creating more warehouses, or creating trading company facilities.  There shouldn't be a super long waiting list to get facilities, the difficult part should be gaining political/social status and fending off the GMH's...not having a place to congregate and paying Nenyuk a boat load of coin for the privilege.

[Desertman]

The problem with your idea, Desertman, is that a good percentage of those who were banned from Armageddon did so in a way that probably no Staff would ever want to trust them again no matter what.

Could you trust an ex Staff who went on to reveal a whole bunch of little secrets? Or someone who went on and revealed a whole bunch of RL gossips about Staff, ex staff and players, out of spite?

They haven't left silently, cursing the Staff deep inside, they did it in most public ways and in ways that the upper Staff probably wouldn't trust them again no matter what.

Also, let's be honest, most of these people who've been banned are currently still playing under a proxy or a new IP.

(also, I hope that people realize that I didn't create this thread, Nyr created it and titled it - I really don't think that the game is currently "terrible" and that everything was better before)

Anyone who didn't codedly hack the game and thus weren't a physical threat to the health of the game should get a pass. Everything else is just hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Perhaps that's true but there are some former players, both staff and non-staff, who have trashed other players (non-staff) publically in other parts of the game-playing web - personally, I wouldn't want to learn that I'm playing with any of those people. I'd rather play with a whopping 10 players on average, six of whom are noobs and only one true veteran, than have even three of those players who have made very public efforts to insult players and staff by name in other fora, even if those three were hand-picked by Nyr himself and double-approved by both Sanvean and Halaster.

Why would you want to invite back people who have made it incredibly clear that they can't stand you?

This falls into hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

[BadSkeelz]

Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

[Jingo]

It's better now by a long shot.

If you wanted to get involved in any of the cool plots back in the 2000's you would have had to have Halaster or Naionia and probably some others invite you into one of their plots to get cool things to happen.

Granted, the days of the Halaster plot is over and so that comes with a toning down of some of the craziness during that era. But now staff are much much more accountable. Kudos to the administrative team for that.

[Malken]

This falls into hurt feelings, egos, and petty nonsense.

Maybe if they posted a daily vine video (that's how kids call them these days, right?) of them taking their medicine, that'd go a long way.

Let's face it, a lot of our playerbase are mentally ill and clinically depressed, so it's not like they're planning on snapping and going nuts, so if you forgive them you never know when they'll go in rabid mode once more, no matter what they say.

(I take my meds daily so I think that's why Staff tolerates me. They also know that I'm just the harmless raving madman at the corner of the street spouting nonsense that, once in a blue moon, might have some sort of hidden wisdom sent by the Gods)

- I will also gladly admit that I often use hyperbole and overly-exagerated examples in my ranting but that's just part of my weird sense of humor - just like I'm not offended that Nyr made a thread that makes it sound like I randomly lost it, I'm also hoping/thinking that he knows there's really nothing more than my usual bitching behind those words. I still think Armageddon is a great game and I'm probably just jealous of those who still have lots of time to enjoy it, you all suck for it!

[Desertman]

Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

If this were an episode of The Days of our Lives I would say this is a pretty good argument...but it isn't, and really, none of the drama matters. It gets us nothing and paying any attention to it beyond giving it a passing chuckle only shows how immature we are regardless of how immature they are.

[Jingo]

Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

If this were an episode of The Days of our Lives I would say this is a pretty good argument...but it isn't, and really, none of the drama matters. It gets us nothing and paying any attention to it beyond giving it a passing chuckle only shows how immature we are regardless of how immature they are.

I don't think it's staff responsibility to reach out to hostile players. But we shouldn't give them more attention than they deserve?

Wtf is d-man and all the sem-valid points he is making lately.

[Molten Heart]

Someone who's unable to control their feelings to the point of launching personal attacks and holding a grudge for years over a text--based roleplaying game is not someone I would trust to have the maturity and patience needed to be a good staffer, nor even be a good player. The onus is on them to grow up and apologize, not Armageddon staff or community to invite them back.

The onus is on staff to be professional.

[Jingo]

Professionalism has nothing to do with accepting or putting up with abuse. That's generally where the problem comes in.

[Desertman]

I've said all I can and care to say on the subject.

[Malken]

This was my biggest fear when I learned that Talia was gone.

She seems to have a calming effect and a sense of professionalism that was contagious to both Staff and players alike. Armageddon is always at its best when it has a motherly figure willing to offer us her cyberteats on to which we can latch and feast on the milky wisdom they have to offer. Talia and Sanvean were great examples of such.

Since she is gone it seems like the players/staff divide is slowly creeping back, like I wrote a few days ago (snarky answers and the like)

[Molten Heart]

Professionalism has nothing to do with accepting or putting up with abuse. That's generally where the problem comes in.

Being profesional is about creating working solutions. Squabbling with critics and putting them in their place is unprofessional.

[LauraMars]

[BadSkeelz]

This was my biggest fear when I learned that Talia was gone.

She seems to have a calming effect and a sense of professionalism that was contagious to both Staff and players alike. Armageddon is always at its best when it has a motherly figure willing to offer us her cyberteats on to which we can latch and feast on the milky wisdom they have to offer. Talia and Sanvean were great examples of such.

Since she is gone it seems like the players/staff divide is slowly creeping back, like I wrote a few days ago (snarky answers and the like)

Pffffffffffffft. She's been gone what, a week? Have you even played since then?

She's exactly universally missed, either. I might consider playing under the Southern team again. Nothing against her personally, I just didn't like playing under her staffing style. It's just a personality difference that I respect and play around.

So there's a flipside to everything.