Ask the Players - Third World Countries

[ibusoe]

I grew up in America, a first world country.

People whom grew up in third world countries, what do we get wrong about Armageddon?

[musashi]

... I also grew up in America ... but right off the bat I'd guess people from outside of the G8 countries probably dislike being called the "third world" 

[Suhuy]

I may not be exactly qualified to respond from the perspective of someone born and raised in the "third world" (or call it what you will), but as someone who travels the globe extensively for work I'd like to think I can weigh in with some measure of experience.

I've driven past shanty towns in Dakha, Bangladesh which are dismal enough to put the descriptions of Allanak's Labyrinth to shame (minus the muls and elves and rampant murder, I suppose, but you get the point). Before the airport in Kolkatta, India was quite recently renovated, every time I left the building and entered the parking lot I was approached by dismembered beggar women. One day it struck me, how could all these beggars be missing limbs? I can understand one or two having endured a tragic disaster, but all of them? It just seemed odd. So after researching the matter, I learned that the beggars effectively have a "pimp" who, when they're children, lops off a hand (or other body part) in order to invoke sympathy in passersby and make more money (for the pimp, not the beggar). I saw another dismembered beggar in Taipei, Taiwan once (hardly what I'd call third world) pounding -- literally pounding -- his forehead into the pavement to attract attention and pity. He had no arms or legs. It was a miserable sight and I kept thinking about who puts him out there and takes him back each day, or who feeds him and helps him to the toilet. Driving through Entebbe, Uganda is a horribly bleak affair, where the absence of running water and electricity seems pretty widespread. And this short list doesn't even crack my top ten of some of the most appalling living conditions I've had to see first hand.

The biggest issue preventing such nations from improvement is sexism. Until women become empowered -- or unless they strike massive oil as in the Gulf region -- they will always have widespread poverty. But gender issues do not play a part in the world of Armageddon MUD, so what else can apply to the game?

One thing I think will fail every American, more than many other Western nations, is the notion of hierarchy. There is a certain type of spoken language and body language expected from your seniors in Asian or Middle Eastern work places, for example. In some instances, you stand up when they enter the room, you let them eat before you do, and you speak professionally at all times (no "Hey, how you doin" -- they're not your bro, they're not your mate, even if you go bowling with them on the weekends). You can imagine how much stronger this element would play out in the Zalanthan world. I'm talking less about commoner to noble/templar RP here than I am simply within a hierarchy of any sort. Merchant houses should be seen on par with feudal societies where your employer has the legal right to beat you if you disappoint them! Yet more often the reaction to an authority figure entering the same room, is for the other character to kick their feet up on the table and be like: "Sup?" Which is where my second point comes in.

I get that we, the player, want the freedom to pick and choose which clan our characters work for. And we have that choice, OOCly. But we still might try RPing not having a choice. If you've been given a proposition by Lady Oash to be her aide, but that's not what you, the player, are really after, find some other method of declining the offer besides stating in a very modern voice that you "Are still keeping your options open" or that you're not sure working for anyone really "suits you". Yes, OOCly you know how to manipulate the code well enough to stay sustained, but repeatedly announcing that with an IC voice is a very poor method of reinforcing harsh living conditions thematic with the game world. No one's saying you have to join a clan or be part of something you don't want to, but there are a million ways you can turn the offer down while still being in keeping with a harsh desert world. Most of the commoner NPCs in Allanak are a perfect illustration of a third world environment. About the only difference between them and Rinther NPCs is the lack of a dark, hooded cloak. They look downright miserable! You certainly don't have to play your character as one of these people, but it helps when you find ways in your RP to reinforce that setting and the fact that your character is one of the very, very lucky few. That's all I'm saying.

[Refugee]

I lived for three years on an island that belonged to Portugal, which is not even close to "third world".  But the huge glaring difference between the American contingent and the local contingent there was waste, which I imagine would be even greater in poorer countries.

The very top, wealthiest locals in our area, who reminded me more of antebellum plantation owners, lived in genteel finery, and they were confident and friendly and gave me the feeling they were mildly amused with us, like tolerant and fond adults watching frenetic children at play. 

The vast majority of the people around us lived in what could only be called abject poverty, by American standards.  Growing up in the Appalachians I saw and experienced poverty, but this was different.  In Portugal, there was simply no way to change one's situation, no idea that it could be different, short of leaving the island (which most did).  And the acceptance of that was profound.  They were satisfied with their lot, they were happy with being subservient to the upper tier, they thought it was right and proper.   They were beneath the upper class in a way that's hard to explain, like it was in their DNA.  But they were a happy, warm, welcoming people who worked harder than anyone I ever saw, under conditions no one here would accept, like the plumber who had no gloves while he dug with his hands through a pile of shit from a broken drain under our cottage, or the movers who carried our heavy things up stairs without hand trucks or straps or anything but their backs.  They weren't at all sullen or whiny;  they found opportunity at every turn to sing or dance or turn bulls loose in the street that they could run from (this was great sport that everyone lined the streets to watch from behind stone walls).

And they wasted -nothing-.  The very trash we threw away was sorted through and used or sold.  Almost everything.  Americans throw away a lot of stuff.  The first culture shock was that there wasn't a place to rent storage on the whole island.  It took me forever to make my landlord (one of the genteel class) even understand what I was even asking for.  He couldn't conceive of it.  Of having more than you had room for, I guess.  We weren't prepared for how small our house would be, and being civilians had been allowed to ship about half what we'd needed in our middle-class American house.  So we paid to have it hauled away, and rather than being taken to the dump it was absorbed into the populace.  Which is not very surprising, why waste perfectly good furniture?  This would have happened in the back hills of Kentucky too.

But what I really remember was an incident where another American family had had a pet cat die at night, and the parents had wrapped it in a towel so the children wouldn't have to look at it and took it outside to deal with in the morning.  But in the morning the towel had been taken.

We waste far too much in Arm, and make it obvious that we do by not junking the bits we don't use.  I don't think anything would be wasted, so it's jarring to find parts of animals or unwanted grebbed items laying around (though I've certainly been grateful to find them with new PCs at times!).  I'm not advocating for there being less, just that we should not leave it laying around like it didn't matter to our low-class PCs.

And maybe there's too much melancholy.  It seems to me that that comes with the belief that there's something unjust about your poverty, instead of acceptance.  People in desperate situations are more likely to find ways to lift themselves with song or dance or other means of celebrating just being alive.  Maybe because it's so hard to stay that way.

[Eurynomos]

Enlightening posts. Thank you for sharing.

[Erythil]

... I also grew up in America ... but right off the bat I'd guess people from outside of the G8 countries probably dislike being called the "third world" 

IIRC, the 'third world' was originally meant to denote 'non-aligned;' i.e., a 'third world' besides the Cold War axis of east and west.

Only later did it take on the association with 'third rate.'


I imagine that there's little we get right about life in a poverty-stricken country, since our imaginary world is full of monsters and magic and immortal dictators.

[James de Monet]

I'm not really in favor of the constant turnover in politically correct lingo*, but I believe the currently accepted** term is "developing countries".






*If you have to swap out words every few years like spent magazines, I have a feeling that the problem is not the words themselves, but that the underlying prejudice seeps into the words, and gives them a connotation they did not originally have.  Maybe if we dealt with the prejudice rather that the language, we wouldn't have to keep consigning words to the passé dump.


**Some people still hate it.

[Dakota]

I'll write something here tomorrow.

Been to some.

[Inks]

I have lived far below the poverty line when I was younger. But in a first world country.

Arm is like a third world country if the pcs are like the merchant elite in such a country.

[Chettaman]

Suhuy. Refugee.
I got respect for you two.

I started off in the philippines, (until two years old), but grew up in America so I've got no actual knowledge of what it's like growing up /in/ a third world. But I've lived with homeless people, if that sentence makes sense, in America and so far I've noticed that Allanak and tuluk are not  third world kind of places. Maybe the dark ages without metal.

[Case]

... I also grew up in America ... but right off the bat I'd guess people from outside of the G8 countries probably dislike being called the "third world"  

IIRC, the 'third world' was originally meant to denote 'non-aligned;' i.e., a 'third world' besides the Cold War axis of east and west.

Only later did it take on the association with 'third rate.'


I imagine that there's little we get right about life in a poverty-stricken country, since our imaginary world is full of monsters and magic and immortal dictators.

Religion is a big deal in developing areas, so magic, monsters and immortal dictators are real enough by real world standards.

You're right, third world is a bad choice of words here because that's what it means. I'm from a poor first world country. There's people on Arm living in poor second world countries like China and anything else beyond the Allies or the Communist Bloc is Third World, some of which is just as wealthy as the first world. Phillipines is a first world country 

[Chettaman]

Is it? I was given the impression the philippines is like Mexico where the poor people are really poor and the rich people are really rich and there's no in between. Well... I guess people don't really consider Mexico to be third world either.

[Case]

Is it? I was given the impression the philippines is like Mexico where the poor people are really poor and the rich people are really rich and there's no in between. Well... I guess people don't really consider Mexico to be third world either.

It's because of the affiliation with US. First/Second/Third world refers to Cold War economics, not development. It's what Erythil posted about and I was confirming.

[Chettaman]

Ah. Knowledge gained.
I'm gonna stop sending those free-loader family members clothes!
xD Just kidding.

[Jave]

Is it? I was given the impression the philippines is like Mexico where the poor people are really poor and the rich people are really rich and there's no in between. Well... I guess people don't really consider Mexico to be third world either.

It's because of the affiliation with US. First/Second/Third world refers to Cold War economics, not development. It's what Erythil posted about and I was confirming.

Seems largely semantics to me though.

Over the last few decades since the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, the term Third World has been used interchangeably with the least developed countries, the Global South, and developing countries to describe poorer countries that have struggled to attain steady economic development, a term that often includes "Second World" countries like Laos. This usage, however, has become less preferred in recent years.[1]

Word meanings evolve. We know what the OP was referring to.

[Gaare]

Not really a third world country, but I live in Turkey. With mandatory military service, you can't believe how much you learn.

- Care for Children
In Zalanthas children are really important. It sounds a bit cruel, but they are not that important in some cases. Especially girls, or children with small differences then others. I knew a guy, who is not sure one of his children's name. I was amazed.

But well.. from point of that man, children are born easy and die quickly. As far as I can say, at least, until some age kids mean little to some families.

- Abuse of Power & Brutality
I don't know how to put into words, but Zalanthian templars are good guys compare to some autority figures in sense of power abuse. If one can take 9/10 of your sids everytime they see you, they would -definetly- do it. They would get your apartment, they would get your rug, your lover, your child, your left hand, etc.

[Saellyn]

Not really a third world country, but I live in Turkey. With mandatory military service, you can't believe how much you learn.

- Care for Children
In Zalanthas children are really important. It sounds a bit cruel, but they are not that important in some cases. Especially girls, or children with small differences then others. I knew a guy, who is not sure one of his children's name. I was amazed.

But well.. from point of that man, children are born easy and die quickly. As far as I can say, at least, until some age kids mean little to some families.

- Abuse of Power & Brutality
I don't know how to put into words, but Zalanthian templars are good guys compare to some autority figures in sense of power abuse. If one can take 9/10 of your sids everytime they see you, they would -definetly- do it. They would get your apartment, they would get your rug, your lover, your child, your left hand, etc.

That's because all it takes is one ticked player to find an opportunity to backstab you and murder you. Most people IRL -accept- that authority figures are allowed to do what they do because they're the authority. In Arm, the player is outraged and reacts with the murderous code.

[Tisiphone]

It's also because real oppression isn't fun.

If you're in the DRC, and the local police take nine out of every ten francs you ever earn, and you live in a mud hut with your wife and fifteen children, and you don't have a job, and you're starving most of the time, and your greatest entertainment is that once in your life some crazy white man came through and got stuck and you got to watch him dig it out for hours, and you're covered in ticks and bitten by flies every moment of your life, and on top of all that every two years or so some other tribe's army sweeps through the place killind and eating half the population and demanding that you put them up and feed them by boiling your three youngest daughters, it's not fun. It's terrible.

Or if you're in Mauritania and trying to start a transport business, but you have to bribe the local authorities with more than you make on a trip half the time you make it into Atar, and the other half the time bandits come and raid your caravan leaving most of you shot or beaten nearly to death, or your bicycle you're transporting 300lbs on breaks down because it hasn't seen the inside of a shop in thirty years, and you have to pay a jizya almost at random because the local warlords enforce it on you even though you believe Allah is the only God and Mohammed is his Prophet because they're rapacious bastards, it's not fun, It's terrible.

I could give you plenty of other examples. But real examples of life in poor countries aren't fun. If we structured the game around them, it wouldn't be fun. And unlike the people who live there, who must endure through these things every day because they have no choice and no power to do otherwise, we'd just not log on.

[Case]

It's also because real oppression isn't fun.

If you're in the DRC, and the local police take nine out of every ten francs you ever earn, and you live in a mud hut with your wife and fifteen children, and you don't have a job, and you're starving most of the time, and your greatest entertainment is that once in your life some crazy white man came through and got stuck and you got to watch him dig it out for hours, and you're covered in ticks and bitten by flies every moment of your life, and on top of all that every two years or so some other tribe's army sweeps through the place killind and eating half the population and demanding that you put them up and feed them by boiling your three youngest daughters, it's not fun. It's terrible.

Or if you're in Mauritania and trying to start a transport business, but you have to bribe the local authorities with more than you make on a trip half the time you make it into Atar, and the other half the time bandits come and raid your caravan leaving most of you shot or beaten nearly to death, or your bicycle you're transporting 300lbs on breaks down because it hasn't seen the inside of a shop in thirty years, and you have to pay a jizya almost at random because the local warlords enforce it on you even though you believe Allah is the only God and Mohammed is his Prophet because they're rapacious bastards, it's not fun, It's terrible.

I could give you plenty of other examples. But real examples of life in poor countries aren't fun. If we structured the game around them, it wouldn't be fun. And unlike the people who live there, who must endure through these things every day because they have no choice and no power to do otherwise, we'd just not log on.

This is a good post. I think players, especially from the west, imagine they'd be a lot more badass and rebellious against an actually oppressive govt (no guys, we don't have oppression of this nature).

[Armaddict]

Also of note is that I think the oppression is of a different sort.

Templars already have the absolute power.  They're not worried about it.  But the economic/noble house/etc structure makes for there to be some gain to be had in letting people quibble with each other.

In a sense, I see Templars often as less of an iron grip, and more of an onlooker making sure that there are liberties to be had through action in the city...but you're going to -pay- for those liberties and push them higher up in their standing.

If you don't, they're a lawkeeper, to teach you a lesson about taking liberties without due payment.  If you do, you've filled their pockets, given a favor, or further enhanced their position...you've become their izdari piece to move around, in return for them letting that piece win against their own grudges and enemies to upgrade their usefulness as well.

[gotdamnmiracle]

One could say impoverished countries, but that's also a little touchy. Honestly, I would like to hear from countries with a still functioning class system. I think that's why there's so much argument over how separate classes IG should be treated, because it's hard to imagine if you haven't seen it first hand.