The Gaj

[Inks]

I guess that makes sense now you mention it..I am still not sure. But either way I said if am aide is there I am sure they have reasons and it isn't my place to judge.

[Bast]

Reds isn't really for nobles. Once upon a time before the Traders burned down Nobles were next to never in Reds. I think remember it actually been written down somewhere that Reds is the sort of Place a noble would only go in on a dare. I do remember a time when the Bards Barrel was were most players hung out. The only people I think you should see in the Gaj are Byner, breeds, elves and gemmed. Everyone else should hanging around Reds...save the nobles..Maybe I'm an old school snob like that but I miss the days when Noble would get verbally ripped to shreds by his or her peers for visiting places like that.

[CodeMaster]

A couple of the places I went to in India had these "upper deck" sections where the food/ticket prices are much higher (something like triple?), but the seats and cutlery are better and you might even get air conditioning.  All in the same restaurant!  I could see the Gaj doing something similar with a second floor or a sectioned off booth.

I think it's probably healthy for the game to have these kinds of social hubs or bottlenecks that bring players into contact with each other.

[Bast]

I do think there should likely be an upper class tavern and lower class tavern and that its in regards to the size of the player base..However as it stands I just don't think Reds qualifies as anything remotely near an upper class establishment. I certainly would rather be bored and alone then be caught dead in there where i playing a noble pc. At the same time I think the Gaj should be kept the filthy rat hole it is. Anyone who spent he vast majority of their time around Estate or in cleaner environments is going to throwing up in their mouth a little every time they pass the place just from the stench.

[Lizzie]

Reds isn't really for nobles. Once upon a time before the Traders burned down Nobles were next to never in Reds. I think remember it actually been written down somewhere that Reds is the sort of Place a noble would only go in on a dare. I do remember a time when the Bards Barrel was were most players hung out. The only people I think you should see in the Gaj are Byner, breeds, elves and gemmed. Everyone else should hanging around Reds...save the nobles..Maybe I'm an old school snob like that but I miss the days when Noble would get verbally ripped to shreds by his or her peers for visiting places like that.

Before Trader's burned down, there was Trader's. Commoner PCs were codedly able to go inside (except for elves, I believe), to meet with their noble bosses or potential bosses for interviews, or to bring news, or to bring products that the noble was buying from them.

Now that Trader's no longer exists, there is only the Atrium and the Arboretum. In both cases, commoners who aren't either members of the Atrium themselves, or escorted in by those nobles themselves, are not codedly able to get in to meet with those nobles. There exists no such place, except Red's or the Gaj, or the Silver Ginka. The Ginka might as well not exist, since no one ever "hangs out" there, ever. Sometimes someone will go there hoping to get other people to hang out there, but it always fails, and it becomes "that place where you can buy a cup of tea for the noble who is hanging out somewhere else" again.

The situation has changed, and now Red's is the most appropriate place for a noble to meet commoners. And yes, sometimes they do need to meet them.

[Beethoven]

This discussion comes up a lot, doesn't it?

I don't think it's horrid for nobles to hang out at the Red's as long as they treat it appropriately, aka acknowledge that they are slumming, complain, be condescending about the "rustic" or "quaint" atmosphere, etc. Some of them may actually enjoy it, you know, watching the commoner in his natural habitat and all. Aren't they amusing? It's not really fair to say that a noble would never go to a place so far beneath them or the lifestyle to which they are accustomed. If they've been sheltered their entire lives, perhaps they're curious about how the other half lives. Perhaps being a bit slummy is part of the character. Maybe they loathe every moment of it, but it's SO important to them to personally get their face out there and become beloved to the common rabble that they're willing to stomach it. There are some nobles that would be shocked and appalled at being spotted in such a place, and there are others that would be fine with it, even enjoy it. I've even seen groups of noble NPCs, from multiple Houses, conversing with noble PCs at the Red's.

Also, the fact that some nobles are (v)NPCs and some are PCs has an IG explanation, and it's called "being public." PCs are "public" nobles. They're expected to mingle with commoners a bit more than Lord Slackjaw who loafs around in his estate all day and drops by the Atrium for the occasional cream tart. The extent to which each noble player takes this is up to the them, and of course may open them up for many a pointed barb from a rival. If your noble PC personally thinks it should be verboten, I think it's more of a matter to be resolved IC rather than discouraged OOC: shame the Red's-sitters!

[LauraMars]

Some of them may actually enjoy it, you know, watching the commoner in his natural habitat and all.

THIS PLACE IS SO AUTHENTIC

[musashi]

The proximity to the gates and stables means it would be frequented largely by travellers, miners and merchants, as well as gmh employees due to people wanting to have a drink after a hard day's walk /ride and picking the closest bar, and merchants wanting to trade with said people.

It isn't the sort of place I see aides etc going to unless they are hipsters that enjoy irony. That being said players can play pcs however they want as long as it fits the gameworld. I would like a chance for vomit stains on cloaks etc though as long as it was really rare. Hilarious.

I think that's...exactly where aides should be.  They are literally paid to mingle with these people so their Lord or Templar don't have to.

I never thought the gripe was about whether an aide is hanging out in the Gaj or not.
I thought the gripe was about "ignoring the setting" by hanging out there in expensive clean clothing and not role playing having your stuff get puked/pissed/bled on ...

[Beethoven]

Some of them may actually enjoy it, you know, watching the commoner in his natural habitat and all.

THIS PLACE IS SO AUTHENTIC

<3

[Barzalene]

My take is that the Gaj is inappropriate for nobles. It is inappropriate for a a certain rank of GMH employee to make their main hang out (though they might need to go their occassionally for business reasons, but would probably prefer not when they don't need to.) It's inappropriate to be there if your employer has told you not to go (or teacher or superior.)
You wouldn't want to dress up to go there. You'd feel out of place. You'd worry about what you might sit in or get spilled or vomited or otherwise ejected onto you. Your nice clothes are at risk there. Mostly, you'd feel like an idiot. You'd be over dressed. Like wearing a ballgown for mcdonalds.

[Armaddict]

The proximity to the gates and stables means it would be frequented largely by travellers, miners and merchants, as well as gmh employees due to people wanting to have a drink after a hard day's walk /ride and picking the closest bar, and merchants wanting to trade with said people.

It isn't the sort of place I see aides etc going to unless they are hipsters that enjoy irony. That being said players can play pcs however they want as long as it fits the gameworld. I would like a chance for vomit stains on cloaks etc though as long as it was really rare. Hilarious.

I think that's...exactly where aides should be.  They are literally paid to mingle with these people so their Lord or Templar don't have to.

I never thought the gripe was about whether an aide is hanging out in the Gaj or not.
I thought the gripe was about "ignoring the setting" by hanging out there in expensive clean clothing and not role playing having your stuff get puked/pissed/bled on ...

I have no idea why you keep taking my replies to individual portions of the discussion and trying to make what's said in them irrelevant to the main discussion while somehow ignoring that I quote what they -are- relevant to. I spoke to someone stating that it's not the Aide's kind of place, where, by virtue of their job, it can be very necessary for them to go there and be there, which makes that statement untrue.

If you want to wrest that back into the main conversation rather than the segue that was meant to show a clear contradiction to a base point of their argument, then we're going back to the argument of the room description/setting of the Bar.  Which I think other people already put insightful discussion into, and if you want to focus on that, you should likely quote them instead of me with discussion on said setting.

So the answer to what you said with me quoted is 'yes, but so?', basically.

[Eyeball]

Reds isn't really for nobles. Once upon a time before the Traders burned down Nobles were next to never in Reds. I think remember it actually been written down somewhere that Reds is the sort of Place a noble would only go in on a dare. I do remember a time when the Bards Barrel was were most players hung out. The only people I think you should see in the Gaj are Byner, breeds, elves and gemmed. Everyone else should hanging around Reds...save the nobles..Maybe I'm an old school snob like that but I miss the days when Noble would get verbally ripped to shreds by his or her peers for visiting places like that.

Well, going by former and current room descriptions, the Reds was very much upgraded relative to the old Bard's Barrel. It's actually posh now. Although for some reason, the elf's shop to the south, which in an ill-stocked way supplied performers for the Barrel, was never detached from the Red's (even though the stage was removed).

[musashi]

I have no idea why you keep taking my replies to individual portions of the discussion and trying to make what's said in them irrelevant to the main discussion while somehow ignoring that I quote what they -are- relevant to. I spoke to someone stating that it's not the Aide's kind of place, where, by virtue of their job, it can be very necessary for them to go there and be there, which makes that statement untrue.

If you want to wrest that back into the main conversation rather than the segue that was meant to show a clear contradiction to a base point of their argument, then we're going back to the argument of the room description/setting of the Bar.  Which I think other people already put insightful discussion into, and if you want to focus on that, you should likely quote them instead of me with discussion on said setting.

So the answer to what you said with me quoted is 'yes, but so?', basically.

I think you've misconstrued my commentary as an attack on you, which wasn't the intention. I was agreeing with you, and then adding for clarification that I think the real issue isn't who has what rank or title, but rather who is wearing what while there.

I could even theoretically see (thought somewhat uncommon and not really playable given our game setup and player base size) a noble dressing up in common rags for the thrill of slumming it up and going to hang out in the Gaj in secret.

[bcw81]

Guys, focus on the discussion please.

[Tuannon]

I'm not sure but the elf in the Red's was put in even after it was rebuilt as a joke. Although I'd need verification from one of the involved parties and I haven't seen ale six in a donkey's age.

[Lizzie]

I'm not sure but the elf in the Red's was put in even after it was rebuilt as a joke. Although I'd need verification from one of the involved parties and I haven't seen ale six in a donkey's age.

The shop south of Red's that shares the southern/northern wall of the building has been there since it was the Bard's Barrel. There used to be a dwarf in the Barrel that used to play songs (some rather bawdy, some actually known as northern), and it was presumed that the artistic props and instruments were purchased at that shop.

There is also still a gypsy who sells brandy upstairs, and the room descriptions depict a somewhat common crowd. It's basically a cleaner, better kept Gaj that doesn't allow brawling. It's a place where commoners of various types should be hanging out - rinthis, northerners, and Byn runners probably would not be welcome unless asked, and the gemmed might possibly be tolerated until a noble shows up.

There's already been posts about this - but by all means check the submissions logs about a particular incident in the Barrel involving a unit of Arm soldiers and Lord Templar Samos, and a kalan fruit. It should be known by anyone in Allanak that Red's was renamed to honor its benefactor, Samos the Red.

Due to the lack of a Trader's alternative (where commoners don't need escort to get past the door-guard), Red's should be the catch-all - where nobility and templarate, and the "less miserable" commoner types all meet. The Allanak version of the Sanctuary. Unfortunately, the Atrium seems to have stripped most of the RP from Red's, and placed it behind a door guard where the "less miserable" commoner types have no entry. So they all end up in the Gaj, even though they might not feel comfortable there. The players seem to have shoved aside the strict keeping with the environment, for playability. Can't say as I blame them. If the Atrium closed down, perhaps Red's would be more popular.

[Brytta Léofa]

I think the right division isn't by social rank so much as by mentality:

The Red's is for commoners who do not want to get in a bar fight.
The Gaj is for commoners who do want to get in a bar fight.

[Delirium]

Or for people who live upstairs and don't feel like walking across town for a drink.

[Alesan]

Or for PCs who actually want to run into other PCs.

[Lizzie]

Or for PCs who actually want to run into other PCs.

Yes, this is how it is now. It wasn't always exclusively this way. It used to be that, plus Red's, both sharing PCs who want to run into other PCs. Red's used to be fairly popular, back when it was the Barrel. Back before Trader's was destroyed, and back before the Atrium reopened.

That's the point of this thread. To discuss the whys and wherefores of the popularity of the Gaj, even though according to the room description and the room echoes, it is not some place where people wearing fine clothing and possessed of "classy" manners would want to hang out in. They do anyway, because of OOC playability.

Also regarding the too lazy to walk to another bar for a drink - there are four other apartment buildings in the city available for PCs. Only one of them is occupied by people who typically should be expected to hang out in the Gaj. Two of the other three are occupied by people who typically would hang out in Red's. The third is not defined as such, but is -much- closer to Red's than it is to the Gaj. So laziness only accounts for the people who occupy the Gaj and that first building, but doesn't account for any of the other three buildings.

[Alesan]

I think the playerbase is probably still too small for both the Gaj and Red's to be common hangouts anyway. Even during peak hours.

[Lizzie]

I think the playerbase is probably still too small for both the Gaj and Red's to be common hangouts anyway. Even during peak hours.

It really isn't. Back when the Barrel was popular, there were fewer players, on and off-peak. In fact, back then, there were three bars open and all three saw its share of PC occupation on a regular basis. Trader's was more exclusive - both due to RP and due to code - elves were not able to enter at all without being escorted in, and the only Bynners you'd see there were new players who didn't know better, and Sergeants who were summoned there to meet with nobility and templarate. So there were usually much fewer people in Trader's than in the Barrel and the Gaj. The Gaj also had apartments on top, at the time, so even then - laziness had little to do with anything, since there were people who lived on top of the Gaj who frequented the Barrel. And there were people who lived next door to the Barrel (when it was a run-down tenement house) who frequented the Gaj.

I am of the firm belief that the Atrium is at fault for removing both nobility and templarate from the routine view of the rest of the playerbase, and restricting it almost exclusively to themselves, and their aides, and anyone who is employed by the Atrium. And all of those people tend to spend more time amongst themselves in the Atrium or their apartments, and less time anywhere else. All of those people, are the same people you might typically see at Red's. And so - Red's is a ghost town and the Gaj becomes the catch-all.

[Alesan]

Either way, it appears we're stuck with it. Unless enough people "be the change" in-game that it changes in any significant way. But I'm not expecting that to happen. People who don't want to run into nobles and templars will stay in the Gaj. Those that don't mind it are isolating themselves from the rest of the playerbase anyway. Seems to be the status quo.

Maybe that's why the playerbase seems so small. A large group of it are hiding behind a magic curtain.

[Delirium]

Or for PCs who actually want to run into other PCs.

Yes, this is how it is now. It wasn't always exclusively this way. It used to be that, plus Red's, both sharing PCs who want to run into other PCs. Red's used to be fairly popular, back when it was the Barrel. Back before Trader's was destroyed, and back before the Atrium reopened.

That's the point of this thread. To discuss the whys and wherefores of the popularity of the Gaj, even though according to the room description and the room echoes, it is not some place where people wearing fine clothing and possessed of "classy" manners would want to hang out in. They do anyway, because of OOC playability.

Also regarding the too lazy to walk to another bar for a drink - there are four other apartment buildings in the city available for PCs. Only one of them is occupied by people who typically should be expected to hang out in the Gaj. Two of the other three are occupied by people who typically would hang out in Red's. The third is not defined as such, but is -much- closer to Red's than it is to the Gaj. So laziness only accounts for the people who occupy the Gaj and that first building, but doesn't account for any of the other three buildings.

At least one of those buildings (the one closest to the Red's) can't be rented by unaffiliated rif-raff, so if you're unaffiliated rif-raff, it's the Gaj for you!

[Alesan]

Or for PCs who actually want to run into other PCs.

Yes, this is how it is now. It wasn't always exclusively this way. It used to be that, plus Red's, both sharing PCs who want to run into other PCs. Red's used to be fairly popular, back when it was the Barrel. Back before Trader's was destroyed, and back before the Atrium reopened.

That's the point of this thread. To discuss the whys and wherefores of the popularity of the Gaj, even though according to the room description and the room echoes, it is not some place where people wearing fine clothing and possessed of "classy" manners would want to hang out in. They do anyway, because of OOC playability.

Also regarding the too lazy to walk to another bar for a drink - there are four other apartment buildings in the city available for PCs. Only one of them is occupied by people who typically should be expected to hang out in the Gaj. Two of the other three are occupied by people who typically would hang out in Red's. The third is not defined as such, but is -much- closer to Red's than it is to the Gaj. So laziness only accounts for the people who occupy the Gaj and that first building, but doesn't account for any of the other three buildings.

At least one of those buildings (the one closest to the Red's) can't be rented by unaffiliated rif-raff, so if you're unaffiliated rif-raff, it's the Gaj for you!

That's rich middle-class unaffiliated riff-raff to you!