Tiered Game Objectives Thought Experiment

[ibusoe]

Different players play for different reasons.  Their goals are different.  In essence, the staff are managing several populations of players, not one population. 

Doubtlessly, this presents challenges.  I can remember teaching high school and having diverse student populations.  My students were split into several groups by the administration.  I can remember two sections of physics in particular.  One set was the overachievers and one set was the underachievers.  My assumption prior to the start of that semester was that the underachievers would be more difficult to manage.  Boy was I wrong.

Both classes presented challenges, but they were very different sorts of challenges.  With the underachievers, I did have some behavioral problems by my major problem was motivation.  With the overachievers, there was rabid cheating.  I should also mention that their attitudes were typically negative.

With the underachievers, it was tough to keep them interested in the material enough for them to study it.  They liked learning, but when it came down to test preperation they were very half-assed.  My concern was that if they didn't focus a bit more they wouldn't have long term retention.  Learning isn't enough, I needed these kids to be able to apply the material later.  In some cases, this would have been the last science class they were ever taking in their lives.  This was their last chance.

With the overachievers, it was tough to get them interested in the material at all.  They were only interested in the next test, because they wanted A's so they could impress their parents and their friends with academic scolarships.  They didn't like learning, they liked achieving.  They cheated constantly. 

I could tell the underachievers what specific questions were going to be on the next test.  This had a postive effect on retention with them.  If they knew what questions were going to be on the test, they'd drill those questions.  Drilling was what I needed them to be doing, it helped with memory and application of the subject matter.  But given that their behavior wasn't perfect, I'd have to keep an eye on things like rest-room passes, etc. to prevent them from getting into mischief in the hallways. 

With the smart kids, their problems were never behavioral.  Never a note passed, never talking out of turn, never a spitball.  But I actually had to implement operational security to prevent them from stealing answer keys and tampering with my gradebook. 

This sometimes reminds me of the application process.  I can tell that the staff are running defense.  One can only suppose that a volume of players are asking for things that they aren't really meant to have.  It's borderline comical for me.  It usually takes several communications to help staff understand that whatever I'm asking for, it has nothing to do with breaking the game.

This presents several problems.  For example, most players will agree that it's too hard to play a raider.  To successfully play a raider, you only really get to *start* raiding once you climb halfway up the combat ladder.  This doesn't make sense.  After all, people who want to play raiders don't really want to play elite warriors.  Does it make sense to have the poor schmuck who is essentially volunteering their time to create game atmosphere (as a raider) to be stuck in the same process as the twink who is working to create an elite gladiator or a Borsail Scorpion?  It does not. 

Likewise, if someone's goal is to simply drive a wagon back and forth between cities (without the associated large values of wealth and social climbing), does it make sense to hold these people to the same scale as someone attempting to found a merchant dynasty? 

What I'm actually recommending is that we evaluate all of this and consider implementing tiered ladder play. 

Next I'm going to outline what I feel are the three principle ladders in the game.  Doubtlessly I'm forgetting some.

COMBAT/MAGIC - This ladder is what allows you to explore the game, and to kill stuff.
MERCANTILE - This ladder varies but generally allows you access to buy things, sell things and accumulate large amounts of money, as well as access to otherwise exclusive types of business deals.
SOCIAL - This ladder is what allows someone to join a group (such as House Salarr) maybe as junior assistant agent, and eventually socially climb until you're Lead Personal Assistant to Lord Tektolnes

First I'll call your attention to the Social ladder, because I have a suspicion that this one is actually working.  I don't have a ton of experience playing leadership roles, so if I get this part of my reasoning wrong, please feel free to correct me.  Let's say someone wants to play a high-ranking crafter, right?  They apply for a job as a junior crafter with House Kadius, which is really easy to get.  Time goes on, they can climb to be senior crafter.  This is definitely a promotion but it's not the same as being Captain of the Militia.
It might, by contrast be more difficult to get an entry level position in the militia, but you have much more room to climb. 

Yet when you get to the combat aspect of the game, this system breaks down.  And with the mercantile aspect. 

I propose that we set up a tiered system with multiple options.  For my examples, let's suppose that any ladder has six rungs, which we'll label A-F.

So you want to play a hunter, right?  Maybe you start with combat level B.  This gives you enough power to go out and hunt stuff.  Eventually, you can climb up to level E, which is way more power than you'll need, but at least you can be a pretty good hunter.  You have a lower skill cap than the guy who is playing the elite mercenary, but then he had to start all the way at the bottom of the ladder at level A. 
Contrast that with someone who wants to play a raider.  If they're going to go beat up a low-level hunter (power level B), they'll need to start at least power level C.  Unfortunately for the raider he tends to cap rather low (power level D), but that's the price he pays for living the raider lifestyle. 

So what I'm saying, is that for things like combat and merchants (non-social climbers), the following tier system might work well:

Tier 1: Conventional Tier - Start at level A but has the power to climb all the way to the top (level F).  This is how things currently work.
Tier 2: Boosted - Start at level B but only has the power to climb to level E.  Good (yet imperfect) improvement potential without the need to start at the bottom.
Tier 3:  Flash in the Pan - You start really strong but can't improve much.  Presumably these won't be long-lived characters.

I consider this the logical extension of the Extended Subguilds system.  Between the changes to the karma system, special application system, and the stat system the staff are creating a much more flexible character build process.  It's becoming increasingly easy to build the sort of character that *you* want to play.  In my opinion, implementing the  tiered ladder system, at least for combat and commerce, will allow players better access to the sorts of characters that they're actually interested in playing.

Please post feedback below.  I'll ask people not necessarily to focus on the nuances of this - remember, staff may very well say no to this in which case there is no point in arguing.  Rather, please focus on whether or not you think this would allow you to play more flexible characters. 

Thanks!!

[MeTekillot]

I play mostly to entertain other players, whether by being funny, compelling, or something to fight against. Sometimes I'll do things to make myself laugh.

[titansfan]

I play to blow off steam from real life stressors. Honestly, I tend to play characters with high strength and combat ability just so I can go do what I want which is to kill things and collect stuff.

[Erythil]

If I TL;DR you correctly you're suggesting that we allow character archetypes that are inherently limited with a lower ceiling, but start from a higher base.  A 'casual' option that shortcuts you to a certain role while closing off the heights of power.  So you don't need to spend time grinding to play whatever it is you want to play.

[Revenant]

I definitely like it. I worry that some people may abuse the raider level to make disposable PCs that behave, not so much in a proper raiderish fashion, but to do things like repeatedly suicide attack a public place simply over an OOC grudge or other issue. While yes, these problem players could be picked out and punished, restricted, or outright banned, in a game with permadeath the damage may be already done, and potentially extensive. Perhaps the other tiers, particularly the flash in the pan, should have a minimum karma requirement, so the players playing those characters know they have a few years worth of investments to lose if they abuse the mechanic. Just a thought.

[musashi]

It seems like skill bumps might be able to roughly approximate this already doesn't it?

[ibusoe]

I play mostly to entertain other players, whether by being funny, compelling, or something to fight against. Sometimes I'll do things to make myself laugh.

and

I play to blow off steam from real life stressors. Honestly, I tend to play characters with high strength and combat ability just so I can go do what I want which is to kill things and collect stuff.

Yeah.  I can see it.  Personally, I'm a hack & slasher.  Thank you for responding.

If I TL;DR you correctly you're suggesting that we allow character archetypes that are inherently limited with a lower ceiling, but start from a higher base.  A 'casual' option that shortcuts you to a certain role while closing off the heights of power.  So you don't need to spend time grinding to play whatever it is you want to play.

Thank you!!  Wow, you said exactly in three sentences what I needed seventeen paragraphs for. 

I definitely like it. I worry that some people may abuse the raider level to make disposable PCs that behave, not so much in a proper raiderish fashion, but to do things like repeatedly suicide attack a public place simply over an OOC grudge or other issue. While yes, these problem players could be picked out and punished, restricted, or outright banned, in a game with permadeath the damage may be already done, and potentially extensive. Perhaps the other tiers, particularly the flash in the pan, should have a minimum karma requirement, so the players playing those characters know they have a few years worth of investments to lose if they abuse the mechanic. Just a thought.

Wow, good catch!  But I'll say this - doesn't our game attract surprisingly few griefers these days?  I agree that there would be a ton of implementation details to sort out, and I don't think they've worked all of the bugs out of the Skill Bump process yet.  Speaking of which,

It seems like skill bumps might be able to roughly approximate this already doesn't it?

ROTFL, yeah good point.  So maybe, and I welcome anyone to challenge this, the social ladder is already balanced, and maybe the combat ladder is already balanced, but how about the commerce ladder?

Example:  A few months ago, I got the idea that I wanted to play a high stakes gambler.  The game *needs* more characters like that, bit characters, role-play characters, characters that enhance the ambience.  Maybe my character would have been like someone from Deadwood.

But I quickly realized the character wouldn't work, for one reason and one reason only  - money. 

Why shouldn't characters like this be funded?  There's like a zero percent chance my Riverboat Gambler would have gone anywhere in the hierarchy of the game.  Not cut out for warfare, not cut out to run a business, no Noble blood.

The character would be great as a break between my other long-term characters.  Maybe the character could kick around for a couple of (real life) months, being a gentleman about town, making a bit of a ruckus.  Give people something to talk about.  Eventually, my character's luck could turn.  He could run into debt.  And then what, maybe sober up and join one of the military clans, starting at the very bottom?  It would give him a cool back story.  Or maybe the character would just be quietly knifed in an ally over a gambling debt.  See my point?  The character wouldn't break the game, he'd simply give all of the tavern sitters someone to interact with who wasn't a Nenyuk merchant or a Bynner.  But I wouldn't want to spend every minute of my (real life) free time hacking obsidian just so I could get the (seven or eight thousand) necessary to kick-start this character.  I promise that I won't break the game. 

I think that policies should be liberalized for established players so that they can do stuff like this.  It would contribute to game atmosphere. 

[musashi]

So maybe, and I welcome anyone to challenge this, the social ladder is already balanced, and maybe the combat ladder is already balanced, but how about the commerce ladder?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what I would do in order to play the kind of gambling character you describe is app a merchant. I might subguild a combat role like mercenary or guard for later when he might join the militia in desperation as you alluded to, and I would spend the karma I have on skill bumps to haggle, and the most profitable economic skill based on the area of the game world that I'm playing in in so far as I know.

That way I can take my starting coin (already higher than most for guild merchants) and waste most of it gambling while saving a bit to haggle good prices for raw materials out of NPC shop keepers ... crafting that stuff into higher value stuff (without needing to worry so much about failing because my craft skill has been bumped as well remember?) and then selling those end products to characters and other NPC shop keepers (again, using haggle to get higher profits).

In this way, I think that I could have a gambling addicted man about town right out of chargen, and I wouldn't need to have the character inexplicably funded by staff, because the source of his wealth would have an in game justification as well.

Just my 2 'sids.

[catchall]

I think this is a marvelous and elegant idea.  It provides an option for the people that hate the newbie grind and think their characters should be able to start out in a more advanced stage of development, with the perfect tradeoff.

[Mordiggian]

Just want to point out that we do have options for people that want to play characters the make exceptions to typical character generation constraints:

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

[ibusoe]

Thanks guys!  Yeah,

Just want to point out that we do have options for people that want to play characters the make exceptions to typical character generation constraints:

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

Thanks.  But actually, this is kind of the *opposite* of what I think should be implemented.  What I see the Special Applications process as being, is players are able to pay some of their CGP in order to get jacked up characters, with which they are able to get into the big leagues with the other high rollers and begin fighting over money/power/plot-access or other perks. 

Like remember a few years ago when a couple of dudes were trying to start a brewery in game?  Seems straightforward enough, right?  But these guys had something like 16-day rangers *before* they even started this.  I don't think this should have been necessary.  Mood and atmosphere wise, I don't think it adds to the brewer's back-story to have them as like former Salarr hunters or something. 

Back then the demographic was like:

30% social climber (House agent or House merchant, etc.)
30% soldier (mostly in the Byn)
39% hunter

I think the game would have been ever so much more interesting if it were instead:

20% social climber
30% soldier
20% hunter
20% brewers, butchers, bakers and candle-stick makers

I'm proposing that if you're playing atmospheric characters, instead of paying for the privilege to do so, or awkwardly climbing the ladder to get into the Funnel, there should be instead an alternative process where players with a certain amount of karma (maybe one?) simply promise that they won't break the game. 

I'd hope it would be understood, based upon my previous role-play, that if I wanted to play a brewer or something, that I wouldn't be secretly planning:

Step 1: play brewer
Step 2: grow hipster beard
Step 3: PK a couple of local templars
Step 4: Blackmail House Borsail
Step 5:
Step 6: Join forces with Tony Montana, go on rampage
Step 7: Profit

You know, if I wanted to play that a power character, and I have recent experience doing exactly that, I usually start by mentioning this in my application, and from there I don't expect any special favors.  Power characters are supposed to be self-made, right?

[Mordiggian]

To clarify my previous post, I am referring to Special Applications and not Extended Subguild/Skill Bump apps.

A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things.

Beyond special applications, we (staff) can and have supported certain 'flavor' roles within the last year. If someone submits a special app to come in game with a "brewery" or a gambling den or whatever, we're going to politely say no and direct you to the help file on starting a Minor Merchant House, for a variety of reasons, but special apps do exist. To use your gambler example, an app might ask for X additional starting coins in exchange for something they would typically get. Spec apps are reviewed and approved on a case-by-case basis so don't take that as me saying that particular concept is guaranteed approval, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd kind of like to be able to app in as a journeyman warrior/ranger/assassin whatever, entering the game at at a level where you're codedly useful in exchange for never being able to advance your skills. How you start is the best you'll do. The CGP and skill bump system does a little bit towards mitigating the grind to usefulness, but doesn't eliminate it by any means.

[Dresan]

I've always thought 1 CGP should give a single skill two bumps not one. If that changed the CGP system would be perfect.

This is because getting to novice to apprentice takes almost no time at all anyways, its really apprentice to journey man where you see value for your dollar so to speak.

[ibusoe]

To clarify my previous post, I am referring to Special Applications and not Extended Subguild/Skill Bump apps.

Beyond special applications, we (staff) can and have supported certain 'flavor' roles within the last year. If someone submits a special app to come in game with a "brewery" or a gambling den or whatever, we're going to politely say no and direct you to the help file on starting a Minor Merchant House, for a variety of reasons, but special apps do exist. To use your gambler example, an app might ask for X additional starting coins in exchange for something they would typically get. Spec apps are reviewed and approved on a case-by-case basis so don't take that as me saying that particular concept is guaranteed approval, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.

Sir,

Trying to illustrate a point?  That was actually a pretty good explanation.

Thanks, that clarifies things quite a bit.  After review, some suggestions from yourself and other players including Musashi seem to make the idea redundant, at least from the standpoint of what I'm attempting to accomplish in the game right now.  That being said, it seems that a couple of other players have some interest in the idea or in variants.

Regardless, thank you for clarifying.  While I doubt anything that I'm working on right now would be of especial interest to you, please don't hesitate to hit me up if I can return the favor.

EDIT: ...and it just goes to show how flexible the application process is after recent innovations such as Karma Generation Points, Extended Subguilds and Skill Bumps.  Definitely a lot of strong improvements.