Feck the Police - is Crimcode worth it?

[Synthesis]

You -can- have all-out clan warfare in the streets, as long as your homies can sneak back to the clan hall afterwards.

[In Dreams]

They're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

[RogueGunslinger]

Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

[Barzalene]

I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

I'd risk my 1000 hour pc. I'm not everyone of course, but I'm also not so special. I'm also fine with consequences.

They're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

This is exactly what I've been trying to say.

[whitt]

I'm not everyone of course, but I'm also not so special.

This is a lie.   

I'm also fine with consequences.

Proof.

[CodeMaster]

Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

Another idea in this vein would be to make 2v1 fights much more advantageous for the team of 2.  That way, buddying up with another 5-day warrior would serve as an effective (and probably more interesting) alternative to solo-grinding for 50 days.

Realistically, being attacked by multiple opponents is no joke (getting immobilized or hit in the back of the head is going to wreck your day -- I don't care if you're Bruce Lee).  I feel like two committed 5-day warriors should pose a serious threat to a 100-day warrior, even if the 100-day warrior would blick either of the 5-day warriors in a duel.

Just a thought.

[absurdist]

They're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

Yeah, I agree. It's definitely a combination of the two. Archaic crimecode that cuts down on possible conflict/roleplay and a combat system that further reinforces the 'sit back and let them store' mentality. Clans don't give people a reason to fight, there is no struggle over resources or competition, etc. And most of this is coming from an old codebase/setting and doesn't have anything to do with the current staff. But it'd be very nice to see some changes.

Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

Another idea in this vein would be to make 2v1 fights much more advantageous for the team of 2.  That way, buddying up with another 5-day warrior would serve as an effective (and probably more interesting) alternative to solo-grinding for 50 days.

Realistically, being attacked by multiple opponents is no joke (getting immobilized or hit in the back of the head is going to wreck your day -- I don't care if you're Bruce Lee).  I feel like two committed 5-day warriors should pose a serious threat to a 100-day warrior, even if the 100-day warrior would blick either of the 5-day warriors in a duel.

Just a thought.

Agreed. I think other (since dead) RPIs have done this rather well without making combat a bore.

[whitt]

Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

I would propose a better solution is to reinforce the value of not resorting to killing your enemy.  Sadly, because the usual result of not killing an enemy is that said enemy kills you... I'm not sure how that works out regularly. 

Making it easier to become proficient would remove any sense of risk to the potential griefer.  The slow grind, IMHO, is what stops many folks from putting their characters in positions where they are likely and willing to die unless it is really worth it.  This is realistic.  No slow grind and I have a one-four-shot of pulling off something "epic".  Why not just blitz through the iterations until you win?

I'd be all for a generic boost to guild primary skills at start-up (yes CGP allows for this already) but not so PK'ing is made less risky for the instigators.

[absurdist]

The slow grind, IMHO, is what stops many folks from putting their characters in positions where they are likely and willing to die unless it is really worth it.  This is realistic.  No slow grind and I have a one-four-shot of pulling off something "epic".  Why not just blitz through the iterations until you win?

It's far more convenient to simply ban the griefer (and can always rez casualties if the perpetrator is a blatant unsavory). Yes, past RPIs with more realistic combat systems have dealt with 'revenge characters' and they're dealt with pretty easily. More sensible than forcing everyone to go through this perceptual state of supposed realism where they never risk anything to make shit happen because there's no reason to take the risk in the first place, etc etc.

tldr; the slow grind is shit and 'muh risk-taking realism' is shit because at the end of the day this is a pretty stagnant game that has been running for around two decades and could use some life.

Reinforcing the value of not killing your enemy doesn't do shit, because this game's combat system is geared to exactly that. QUICK, BRUTAL DEATHS. Not with bone swords. With arrows, fireballs, extended weapons, poison daggers. One or two hit kills. (edit: this is where you either change the codebase/get rid of the slow grind OR embrace this aspect of the code and make it easier for characters to get into the action and make shit happen ie. removing crimecode, implement reasons for conflict, less grind, progressive storyline, etc.)

[whitt]

It's far more convenient to simply ban the griefer

Not simple or convenient.  As a griefer will gladly play on multiple accounts, IPs, or whatever is necessary all while happily explaining how foolish and/or pathetic staff attempts at banning are.

(and can always rez casualties if the perpetrator is a blatant unsavory)

And also requires staff intervention and a revision on Rez policies, investigation of "blatant unsavoriness", and etc...  If the player on the receiving end doesn't just up and quit without ever filing a complaint.

tldr; the slow grind is shit and 'muh risk-taking realism' is shit because at the end of the day this is a pretty stagnant game that has been running for around two decades and could use some life.

I'd rather have a game that'll still be around in another two decades.

[absurdist]

That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

It boils down to a unique setting, stable code/server and active staff.

I'd argue that multi-accounting and griefers are more effective in Armageddon compared to other RPIs, given the complete lack of resurrections and the lack of conflict/scarcity of resources. Meanwhile, banning a butthurt bloodthirsty revenge account is really trivial. But yes, I would prefer staff intervention and staff involvement in story/conflict over what we have now. Unfortunately, that sort of involvement is what burns staffers out. Hence the stagnation that Arm has seen.

[whitt]

That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

Nope.  Implying that the lack of repetitive PK I'd expect in a hack 'n slash, therefore allowing for builder and social characters to survive is what has kept players around.

And since they're still around, there's plenty of targets for the folks that get their kicks out of playing against other players.

[BadSkeelz]

Only if we play something other than "warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds," at least in the cities.

[absurdist]

That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

Nope.  Implying that the lack of repetitive PK I'd expect in a hack 'n slash, therefore allowing for builder and social characters to survive is what has kept players around.

And since they're still around, there's plenty of targets for the folks that get their kicks out of playing against other players.

Yep, this game is definitely still around because of all the merchants. I'm glad we're experiencing the same game.

Also, you're exactly right. All conflict should be 'spooky sneaker/raider versus wizened crafter victim'.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

[whitt]

Also, you're exactly right. All conflict should be 'spooky sneaker/raider versus wizened crafter victim'.

Because, I said that.  But good point.  No more food.

[NemesisX]

Yes, crime code is worth it. There should be consequences for our actions. We live in a military police state. It does bring up RP. You want to kill someone and get it done. RP with others. Get others involved with your cause. Have friends cause problems in other part of the city to kill the person your after or steal from that noble. I know over the years they've actually slowed down the guards jump in and kill everyone reaction time. People think someone is after them hire bodyguards. I think people should be using creativity inside of the game.

[ibusoe]

*bunch of awesome stuff*

Wow, it takes guts to right a post like this.  Sorry that I haven't been able to read through all of the replies, but I quite like this idea.  Like maybe if it were phased into certain areas, or if there were otherwise a trial run or a phased roll-out or something.

I can say for sure that there are a lot of people who do thinks like hang out in the Gaj, when it absolutely doesn't suit the character (and let's be honest, it often doesn't fit the players who hang there) so if there was just a few more stabbings per capita, it would make the game more lively.

[Inkspots]

It might be nice if, rather than taking crimcode away in places, different crimes added to a crime score  Maybe a little like GTA, but less extreme.

Get caught picking the pocket of-
Some independent: low addition to your crime score. Soldiers don't care unless you do it a bunch of times in a relatively short amount of time
A noble's aide or GMH family: larger increase to crime score, but still not enough to warrant instant reaction
Noble's pockets: in for a world of hurt
A half-elf: no one cares
An elf: actually reduces your crime score

And for the scale,
0-3: no one cares
4-5: NPCs verbally acknowledge the criminal, drawing PC attention to them
6-8: mercy on, attempts to arrest
8-10: no mercy, but will still attempt arrest

[Inks]

Inkspots your name is too damn similar. But your idea is okay.

[Inkspots]

Inkspots your name is too damn similar. But your idea is okay.

I beat you to it by 1.5 years

But thank you.

[Inks]

Alas...I didn't have gdb account for first 3 years of arm.

Also less guards in RS too please. Cut in half at least. How can we moss eisley cantina?

[Fujikoma]

Also less guards in RS too please. Cut in half at least. How can we moss eisley cantina?

No, just, no. While that might be convenient for citizens of Red Storm, it removes the coded NPC threat to people who would just go bounty hunting in the streets otherwise, and you know they would.

More muls, pls.

[perfecto]

My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction.

I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY

I had a blast reading through all of these responses but Faithi yours struck a funny memory for me.

I was playing an aide to a templar at the time, in charge of cooking and the like so there was always tons of scraps and burnt junk around that nobody wanted.  So my character, trying to be all nice to the beggars and low lives (since thats where she came from) decided to give away these scraps.. well hell.. unless they've fixed this since then.. the NPC grebber dirt kids will not "accept" when you try to give them something.  So me being the sneaky type decided to "plant" some scraps in their pockets for them to find later... BIG MISTAKE!

Sally the scrap-haired, shit face screams "THIEF THIEF" and in roll the heavies, thump thump.. I wake up in prison with a PC templar demanding to know what in Teks great name I was doing stealing from children!  LOL

Funny.. but not so funny.. I like the ideas of the lessened extent of the law for stupid shit like this to be let slide.

[nauta]

My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction.

I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY

I had a blast reading through all of these responses but Faithi yours struck a funny memory for me.

I was playing an aide to a templar at the time, in charge of cooking and the like so there was always tons of scraps and burnt junk around that nobody wanted.  So my character, trying to be all nice to the beggars and low lives (since thats where she came from) decided to give away these scraps.. well hell.. unless they've fixed this since then.. the NPC grebber dirt kids will not "accept" when you try to give them something.  So me being the sneaky type decided to "plant" some scraps in their pockets for them to find later... BIG MISTAKE!

Sally the scrap-haired, shit face screams "THIEF THIEF" and in roll the heavies, thump thump.. I wake up in prison with a PC templar demanding to know what in Teks great name I was doing stealing from children!  LOL

Funny.. but not so funny.. I like the ideas of the lessened extent of the law for stupid shit like this to be let slide.

Reminds me of one of my first PCs, a rat who liked to do card tricks, but I didn't know about the sleight of hand, and instead used 'plant' and 'steal' to hide the cards.  Well, it had predictable results.  Funny bit is, being so very new, it took me three trips to the dungeons before I realized that -that- was what was making the guards take me away.

[Chettaman]

The crim code is terrible.
Maybe we should have certain soldiers with different personalities.
ex 1:
The evil-looking human man has arrived from the north, he really fuckin' kicks your ass until you're dead!
ex 2:
The palladin of the high lord has arrived from the south, he stops your violence and asks you to follow him. (or he takes the both of you into custody) ...where you'll be dealt with off the streets.

---- I like the idea that fighting without weapons gets you a scalding and not jail time.
- multiple offenses gets you jail time.
- and it never ends up in you definitely dead, because people fight. Eh... you know.
- (optional) unless you were caught by someone who really hates elves or dwarves or whatever.

---- fighting with weapons gets you jail time. Very possibly killed.
- (optional) unless they don't like your ass.
- multiple offenses gets you lots of jail time or killed.

---- non soldier VNPCs and NPCs should mostly not care what the heck is going on
(I just wanted to clarify, vennant is an NPC and the commoners you can't see are VNPCs, right?)
- really? is bad as it sounds, even if they actually care about what's going on, Very little people will actually do anything about it. If they had cameras they'd video tape that shit. (imagines someone painting a fight in the streets)
- soldier VNPCs shouldn't exist.

That's all the ideas I came up with off the top of my head. I think I thought about this a long time ago in the shower once, but eh... at least it's coming up now.

_____________
I want to add something that wasn't mentioned (or that I was too lazy to read)

Fear. No longer will that person that just insulted you in the middle of the street be able to just turn his back and walk away. You can kick his dumb face in and then disengage because you're a responsible role player. You can subdue people and emote holding them up against walls and scare the shit out of their scrawny little bodies. You'll be able to put the fear of death into people. ... the next time one of you know it all jerks up turns your nose and just turns away from me after an insult isn't going to have to worry about a backstab. That's -too- fucking much. I'm going to bully your ass and put you in your place. Until you get a body guard to beat me up instead. Or whatever.

of course you could also just be killed during a street fight. But that deserves the crim code. Bam. People would remember the guy who killed someone else.
unless you were an elf or something, but no. Elves are VNPCs too. They'd remember you.

MORE. MORE IDEAS.