Feck the Police - is Crimcode worth it?

[nauta]

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I think the idea was to create another arena for Murder (the city), or at least make Murder a little easier in that arena.

[Armaddict]

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I think the idea was to create another arena for Murder (the city), or at least make Murder a little easier in that arena.

Right, but what I'm saying is that while it sounds well and good, the places that already have similar scenarios seem to push away players, not draw them in.  It's great that people want to be able to react to a guy saying 'fuck you' by outright attacking him in the streets, but the fact of the matter is that Tektolnes is a despot who doesn't like a disorderly city for whatever reasons.  I'm alright with the idea of less soldiers, but don't think every joe shmoe should be able to just get away with murder either.  People who want to get around criminal code without learning criminal code is...irritating.

Study patrol routes.  Find opportunity spots.  Learn how things interact.  And use it.  Like a criminal should.

[wizturbo]

I would like to see crim-code have a percentage chance to not 'stick' based on what crime is being committed, and if possible, the social status of the victim in the location in question.  

How do we create these social status values?  Items and racial values!  Basically every clan and social status comes with some item to declare it to the world at large.  These items can have coded social status values attached to them that offers more crim-code protection while you're wearing them.  They shouldn't stack, but instead choose the highest item on you as your social status value.  This code could be used for a lot more than just crim-code, but this is probably the biggest opportunity area for it.

Mathematically speaking, crim-code triggers could look something like this:

If(1d100 + {victim's high social status affecting item} + {racial modifier} +  {crime modifier}) >= 100) then crim-code is activated.

Here are some example values to plug into the formula:

Human:  +40
Half-giant:  +30
Dwarf: +30
Elf: +20
Desert Elf:  +10
Half Elf:  +10

-----

Borsail Signet Ring: +60
Kadian Family Signet Ring: +40
Oash Junior Aide Cloak: +20
Kadian Hunter Uniform:  +15
Byn Aba: +5


-----

Steal:  +0
Assault:  +35


Example 1:  Unaffiliated human

40% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 75% chance versus assault.  Being human gives you some modicum of protection in Allanak, but being a nobody, you can't really rely on it.


Example 2:  Half-breed Byn runner

15% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 50% chance versus assault.  Chances are, they're not going to get much help from the NPC/Virtual law enforcement for theft.  They're aware of who just tries to rob them, but they'll have to report it to a PC or take matters in their own hands if they want justice.  As for assault, it's a coin toss on whether or not anyone will give a damn to help.


Example 3:  Human Oash Junior aide

60% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 95% chance versus assault.  Most of the time, the law will respond to someone trying to steal from an Oashi aide, but not always.  Of course, reporting the crime might prove successful.  If a fight breaks out however, help almost certainly will be forthcoming.


Example 4:  Human Borsail Noble

100% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 135% chance versus assault.  If you get caught, there will be a response.



Some abuse is possible (an elf wearing a noble's signet ring) but since it only provides defense, not offense, the abuse is pretty limited.  There are also cool things that can be built on top of this kind of system, such as brands/marks that might have negative modifiers on future crim-code calculations.  A criminal with a brand or marking, might now have a negative crim-code item on their character which reduces or removes the probability of them receiving help from the law in the future.  This could be a lasting and real punishment for continuously being on the wrong side of the law, or it could be issued for other reasons that are completely unfair.  There might even be opportunities for magickal, psionic, or other non-magickal effects that create permanent or temporary negative crim-code modifiers on people, or in certain areas, for all kinds of creative uses.

Sure, a system like this would take a lot of work, but honestly any tweaks to crim-code are going to take a lot of work.  This seems to be (from my limited perspective) a realistic implementation as you're basically just attaching a Yes/No trigger on whether existing crim-code is activated or not, rather than reworking the entire system.

[CodeMaster]

There's something to be said for people feeling reasonably safe going AFK after the dogs knock something over or whatever.  Especially in a game with permadeath!

[CodeMaster]

I would like to see crim-code have a percentage chance to not 'stick' based on what crime is being committed, and if possible, the social status of the victim in the location in question.  

Exists, but maybe not in exactly the way you specify

[Clearsighted]

The prevalence of guard NPCs, especially in Red Storm, is ludicrously over-prevalent. It's beyond stupid. Allanak has way too many half-giant guards as well. Should be 5 humans for every half-giant, not the opposite.

[Armaddict]

I can get behind things that makes conflict WITH soldiers more prevalent.

Less half-giants and such.  In the absence of an external war to keep the Arm of the Dragon occupied (which has been notoriously hard to do over the years, coming in short bursts aside from during the Rebellion era), I'd rather see criminals actually able to target soldiers and fight soldiers, and thus more thugs able to commit their crimes.

[Synthesis]

If you're a warrior, with a fairly minimal time investment in training, you can probably pwn the soldier NPCs unless they dogpile you in a group of 3 or more.

If you're a sneaky-type, you should probably think about maxing out your stealth skills before you go crime-committin', especially given how easy it is to max them out.

If you're the sort who just wants to go out and fuck with people without having to put any work into it, well...tough shit.

[Clearsighted]

If you're a warrior, with a fairly minimal time investment in training, you can probably pwn the soldier NPCs unless they dogpile you in a group of 3 or more.

If you're a sneaky-type, you should probably think about maxing out your stealth skills before you go crime-committin', especially given how easy it is to max them out.

If you're the sort who just wants to go out and fuck with people without having to put any work into it, well...tough shit.

This is true, and a little known fact. I've had an elf assassin with barely a couple days play time kill a half-giant guard...10+ years ago. But there's still way too many of them wandering around.

[manonfire]

The omniscient nature of the crimcode is what I'd really like to see fixed.

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! DIDN'T YOU STEAL A PIECE OF FRUIT FROM AN ELF ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE CITY?

DIE!

..unless there's like some sort of psionic shortwave radio all AoD members are tuned into.

[Olafson]

The omniscient nature of the crimcode is what I'd really like to see fixed.

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! DIDN'T YOU STEAL A PIECE OF FRUIT FROM AN ELF ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE CITY?

DIE!

..unless there's like some sort of psionic shortwave radio all AoD members are tuned into.

A slow spread of a wanted criminal would be nice.  Some recursive algorithm with a time delay that allows each soldier to determine if and when they hear about it.  Word of mouth/way etc...Also, maybe based off the idea presented earlier by Wizturbo, each soldier would be able to determine if they care.  AOD PC's would also be included in this trail.  The criminal could now try and outrun the word of the activity.  How about bribing soldiers off their routes too?  Spreading them out?

Wizturbo's idea would be pretty cool too for those who have acquired disguises.  Have an AOD cloak?  Better chance of success.

Some of this could be done with help from the Imm's, obviously, but some hard coded help would be nice.

Olafson

[nauta]

One thought I had related to this:

It'd be nice if the system allowed for your criminal to interact more with the AoD PCs.  At present, it seems that the crimcode sort of forces your hand.  For instance, in order to avoid all those nasty giants, you pretty much have to max sneak/hide and get back to the rinth or somewhere safe like that.  But that also means you have to avoid the AoD PCs too - if you unhide or whatever to taunt them a bit or chat (while wanted) in will come the wombo-combo team of crimbimbal bashers.

I do agree with some of the voices here that the current system does allow for murder within the city, although the risk is pretty high for the reward, which is why it probably doesn't happen much.  But my main concern is that it just doesn't seem to allow for RP opportunities while doing that murdering.  For instance, in the desert or the rinth, you could potentially have a pretty prolonged fight or whatever, with a lot of opportunities for a chase.  Inside the city, you pretty much only have the daggers-in-the-dark option.  (I have a similar fuss with STEAL, which I brought up a while ago.)

One crazy thought I had would be for there to be two crimcodes: one for people with low karma and one for people with high karma, the latter of which would be basically no crimcode, the trust being on the player to not abuse the situation.

[Alesan]

One crazy thought I had would be for there to be two crimcodes: one for people with low karma and one for people with high karma, the latter of which would be basically no crimcode, the trust being on the player to not abuse the situation.

Speaking as someone with no karma, I'm not sure that kind of segregation of players sounds all that great. You get enough benefits as a high karma player in the amount of characters you can play.

[Delirium]

"Yea, the crimcode totally ignores that PC, must be a 7 karma player."

No thanks

[Revenant]

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I've seen the Labyrinth, east side, jumping at times (I was actually a part of it), last year. It might not be that they don't like it, but that they don't know how to survive there... that and possible IC considerations that change over time. For the Labyrinth to work, you can't just treat every PC you see like a disposable commodity. Sure, knock them out, take their stuff, threaten their families, enforce the frightening aspect, but, while sticking to the theme, try and be considerate of your fellow player's investment of time, effort, creaivity, and will (but only if they're FROM the rinth). When you PK another rinthi, you end a story, you end the conflict. Sure, it was efficient and effective, but if you do that enough, you start to, run out of people to play with. I mean, emote thoughtlessly stepping over the bloated remains of a child as you take a stroll through the alleys with someone else. Surely there are other means than irreversible and counter-productive code.

[CodeMaster]

It'd be nice if the system allowed for your criminal to interact more with the AoD PCs.  At present, it seems that the crimcode sort of forces your hand.

+1 ... I think if there were any direction I'd move the crimcode in, it would be in the direction of creating deeper interactions between arrester and arrestee PCs.

I'm not expecting anything like this to be implemented.  I'm not even sure if it's a good idea.  But it might be interesting if AoD PCs had an "arrest" or "pursue" command that simulated a coded chase through the streets.  It would be kinda like archery, in that you could use it across rooms:


> pursue elf east
You begin pursuing the bent-backed elf east of here.
(Type 'stop' to end the pursuit.)


They might be warned:


You notice the angry-looking soldier coming at you from the west.


Then you'd begin to automatically chase after the character (through lawful rooms only).  Every time the pursuit manages to move you into the same room as your target, you have a x% chance of trying to "grab" them.  If your target is sitting, you do nothing and the pursuit ends (they 'gave up').  Otherwise you have a y% chance of knocking them into a sit, and the pursuit ends.  Otherwise, you're in the same room as them and you can attempt a subdue.

y increases the longer you've been pursuing the target to reflect other soldiers noticing and helping you; so if your target pulls you along for 10 rooms, there's a good chance you're going to get the tackle on them.  If they quickly turn a corner into a no-law room, you're SOL and the pursuit code won't help you.

The whole thing would be largely automated, but the strategy would be to pursue someone when they are deep in law-room territory to improve your chances of getting them.

[Armaddict]

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I've seen the Labyrinth, east side, jumping at times (I was actually a part of it), last year. It might not be that they don't like it, but that they don't know how to survive there... that and possible IC considerations that change over time. For the Labyrinth to work, you can't just treat every PC you see like a disposable commodity. Sure, knock them out, take their stuff, threaten their families, enforce the frightening aspect, but, while sticking to the theme, try and be considerate of your fellow player's investment of time, effort, creaivity, and will (but only if they're FROM the rinth). When you PK another rinthi, you end a story, you end the conflict. Sure, it was efficient and effective, but if you do that enough, you start to, run out of people to play with. I mean, emote thoughtlessly stepping over the bloated remains of a child as you take a stroll through the alleys with someone else. Surely there are other means than irreversible and counter-productive code.

I'd like to say that I agree, but there aren't exactly a lot of people who are just running around mugging everyone they see.  It's a question of behavior.  In the alleys, threats are no small deal.  In the alleys, there are still politics at play.  Going around acting like a tough guy who tells everyone off may be their idea of enforcing the 'feel' of the labyrinth, but it's also blatantly disregarding their place in it.  Making enemies is bad.  Doubly so for people who live in a place where there's very little stopping enemies from acting.

In other words.  Even in PvP free zones, I wouldn't call the PvP rampant, but I would call the behavior of those not familiar with a PvP free zone often out of place with lawlessness.  You don't start off a hardcore badass there, you start off someone licking boots and getting friends, not enemies.  A lot of people misplay this, and then complain that their enemy took them out, which is really a very rational thing to do in a lawless area.  Otherwise you're just waiting for them to decide to get the jump on you instead.

However, point being is that complete removal of crimcode is not a viable option.  People like the crimcode, even when they say they don't, because it keeps their enemies on an even keel.  It allows them to continue to play the game the way they want to with at least a decent feeling of security (not a complete one).  This is shown in all those currently lawless areas.  Again, however, I do support actions that make it a bit less of a death warrant for there to be open engagements.  Particularly between criminals and soldiers.  Make the Arm PC's actually feel the need to patrol.  They're the ones fit for taking on PC criminals.  Make a templar with two half-giants more scary than Meleth's circle guards.  So on and so forth.  Cutting OUT crimcode is terribly not okay.  Cutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

[In Dreams]

Cutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

While I do see some threads along this vein pretty regularly, I don't know if a lot of people actually thirst for this. I kind of suspect it's just a vocal minority.

When my PC is out in the wilderness and I could get jumped and murdered horribly at any moment. It's exciting in a way, but it's also nerve-wracking. I can't imagine I could ever play a PC that was out there all the time. If everywhere was like this, I simply don't think I would enjoy this game very much. I'd be too nervous. My PC would have to wear armor and have something wieldable all the time. All clothing objects for anyone not at invincible levels of combat skill would be obsolete. People would kill each other for insignificant reasons, just because they could.

In the current state I can go afk in a barroom without too much worry that I'll come back to the computer to find my beloved PC dead. If she likes, she can wear clothes and not have a sword drawn. If somebody murders her, it's probably something that took some forethought.

I like these things how they are. Whether everyone content with the status quo expresses it or not, I really, truly believe those people vastly outnumber their pro-free-murdering counterparts.

[wizturbo]

That's a good point.  Crim-code does reduce the stress level while playing in that area.  But there's a difference between violence related crim-code, and stealing related.  I think stealing crim-code protections being relaxed (at least against nobody commoner victims) would be positive for the game, whereas if you try to kill someone in the Gaj, it shouldn't be super easy to do.

[Synthesis]

Cutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

While I do see some threads along this vein pretty regularly, I don't know if a lot of people actually thirst for this. I kind of suspect it's just a vocal minority.

When my PC is out in the wilderness and I could get jumped and murdered horribly at any moment. It's exciting in a way, but it's also nerve-wracking. I can't imagine I could ever play a PC that was out there all the time. If everywhere was like this, I simply don't think I would enjoy this game very much. I'd be too nervous. My PC would have to wear armor and have something wieldable all the time. All clothing objects for anyone not at invincible levels of combat skill would be obsolete. People would kill each other for insignificant reasons, just because they could.

In the current state I can go afk in a barroom without too much worry that I'll come back to the computer to find my beloved PC dead. If she likes, she can wear clothes and not have a sword drawn. If somebody murders her, it's probably something that took some forethought.

I like these things how they are. Whether everyone content with the status quo expresses it or not, I really, truly believe those people vastly outnumber their pro-free-murdering counterparts.

I've spent like...thousands of hours in the desert, and the sort of crap you're describing never happens unless you're a noob magicker or you've previously pissed someone off.

I.e. it doesn't happen unless you pretty much deserve it.

[Fathi]

My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction. I don't mind the number of soldiers around, I just think that picking a pocket should result in less of an NPC response than murdering someone. Unfortunately, Armageddon's NPC combat code seems to be pretty much all or nothing. It'd be great if there was some system that would go "oh, this criminal already has 4 soldiers chasing him, he really doesn't need any more" or whatever number.

My ideal dream that is likely not to be a coded reality is for the crim code to treat armed and unarmed combat differently, too. The brawl code helped with this, but it's got its own limitations and can't be used everywhere. I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY anytime a fistfight breaks out. It'd be neato if the crimcode could somehow be activated only if someone was injured past a certain threshold. You could beat the snot of someone to settle your differences without doing it in an apartment or bar and so long as you didn't start to murder them the soldiers would live and let live.

Sure there are ways around the crim code as is. You can train up stealth skills or be a combat guild that can kill soldiers (although bear in mind PC templars treat those NPC soldier deaths pretty seriously in my experience, it's one thing to run from the law and another thing entirely to run from the law and leave a trail of corpses). But I'm not talking about assassinating nobles or fighting great piles of NPC guards. I'd just like to be able to engage in a little casual violence without finding myself #1 on every single city soldier's most wanted list.

[Dresan]

These are the changes I would like to see:

No more half-giant NPC on the street, only in important locations such as the gates, noble quarters, or templar quarters, etc.
Don't replace the half-giant NPC with other NPC, since right now it feels like there is always a soldier within shouting distance.

While it shouldn't be open murder season on newbies and merchants within cities, right now the amount of risk to your character involved in commiting even simple crimes is way to high. By the time you train sneak/hide to mitigate those risks a bit, the rewards/risk of crime vs time investment in your character rarely make it seem seem worth doing.  

[valeria]

It would also be nice if soldier NPCs reported the sdesc or cloak style of a criminal (whichever is visible) and the crime to private+ PCs, because unless the criminal PC lands in jail, investigating crimes is really difficult.  I say from my admittedly short tenure in the Legions.  I'd like to see more crime investigation and criminal pursuit in the hands of PCs, not necessarily just a giant free for all in the low-class areas of Allanak.

[Revenant]

It would also be nice if soldier NPCs reported the sdesc or cloak style of a criminal (whichever is visible) and the crime to private+ PCs, because unless the criminal PC lands in jail, investigating crimes is really difficult.  I say from my admittedly short tenure in the Legions.  I'd like to see more crime investigation and criminal pursuit in the hands of PCs, not necessarily just a giant free for all in the low-class areas of Allanak.

More investigation would be nice, sadly, I've seen numerous times, simply being suspicious of someone = death. You don't even have to commit a crime, someone else could, and you get the blame... it's even happened to my human characters. It basically amounts to a delusional, paranoid, grandiose amount of fingerpointing over things that haven't even happened... now why do we need to do this? If the suspicions are severe enough, the AoD Sergeant can go to a thiefy type or gemmer and say, hey, Lord Templar so and so wants to know more about this crime that took place, I'd like you to spy on these suspects, then pick the most suspicious one, and keep eyes on them at all times. If something got stolen, what? If someone failed a steal attempt? So what, bad guys got away. There's no need to raise a quarter of the town over what basically amounts to nothing.

[wizturbo]

I'd rather see more crimes not investigated at all.  Real criminals, that "the powers that be" want captured, they get investigated by PC's all the time already.  The rest should be forgotten.

No one should care if Joe Grebber's coin purse is lifted, unless Joe Grebber convinces someone of importance they should take an interest.