How would you balance the economy?

[Barzalene]

For shits and giggles (no call for action, staff) I was thinking this over.  I'd leave water where it is, lower the price of all food except the most decadent, raise the price of everything else except what's in the starter shops.

Whatcha got you guys?

[BadSkeelz]

Change the currency to humanoid heads. Hands, ears, and fingers for smaller denominations.

[Rogerthat]

Agreed with Bad.

[bardlyone]

Give all GMH pcs the sort of discount in all GMH shops that they have in their own, to represent the unfair perks/prices/gains of insider trading and crony capitalism. It would also give them much greater buying power in all GMH stores, without having to mess with anyone's pay or any prices anywhere on any individual level.

[ShaLeah]

Give Nobles a much larger stipend to start with.
GMH members not in the selling branches should be given more perks by their superiors. Bonuses.
Limit what independent people can sell. Most independents if not all can make THOUSANDS of sid a RL day. That's bullshit.
Squash stupid items that sell for a gazillion sid.
Any master craft NOT tagged GMH or Nobility can't sell for more than X amount.
Charge more for contracts.

[bardlyone]

Give Nobles a much larger stipend to start with.
GMH members not in the selling branches should be given more perks by their superiors. Bonuses.

Also these two things.

If you can't throw down for 2 head to toe silk outfits as a noble out of your stipend without saving, how in the world are you going to continue to be a fashion plate while also having the coin to drive outside plots and/or healthy amounts of coin to throw around on random mini plots and bonuses? I would think that would be about 20k at the bottom end (just personally).

[nauta]

Economics is hard!

One driving concern here would be the casual player who has a certain character concept: they don't want to have to be playing catch-up just to afford rent and the basic necessities.

We also want to make sure that sid is spent in ways that encourages RP opportunities, e.g., sponsored roles should have enough sid to hire Byn for contracts.

I'm pretty short on solutions, but what about the simple one:

o If staff can monitor bank accounts, have staff (and who wouldn't want to be that guy?) go out and clobber Amos the Twinkmaster with  a dozen spiders, or leak that information to a templar and encourage a shakedown.  Win-win!

Although, to be fair, at least in my limited perspective, Twinkmaster the Amos -has- usually either died to a mek or realized that money can't buy you the things you really need, namely, fun RP opportunities, and transitioned into the rest of society as a result.

[Erythil]

Current noble stipends, while probably smaller than they should be relative to the rest of the playerbase, are absolutely luxurious compared to what they were a couple IRL years ago.


I'd keep water the same price.
Food much cheaper.
Low end gear the same price.
Medium end gear more expensive.
High end gear much more expensive.
I'd give GMH employees an enormous discount on their own house's offerings.
(Note that having gear appropriately price-differentiated based on its relative usefulness will avoid arcane code advantages held by some people who know how the game works from the inside, and what has +skills and high dicerolls that wouldn't otherwise be apparent.  This could even be represented by a skill like appraise, given to warriors, that lets them measure the relative sharpness of blades of strength of equipment.)

I'd add new categories of ultra-high-end luxuries like metal, small wagons for indies, rare mounts.
I'd add incentive fundraising goals for non-noble clans that would add things to their compounds, give them new wagons to replace broken ones, etc.  When I was playing in Kurac and we had a set fundraising goal yielding a set goal (re-admission to Allanak) it really gave me a lot of impetus to make as much money as possible from every sale.
I'd put more emphasis on buying low and selling high -- making more outposts at which to do this in the obscure and dangerous remote parts of the world.  Some of the most fun I had as a merchant was doing the wood/obsidian trade route and hiring people to help me get through safely, but this route is one of the only ones of its kind.  Dangerous trading trips seem to be a staple on Harshlands and is one of the few things about that game that I liked.
I'd keep the Nenyuk fee-for-service but I'd lower the rates substantially.  To balance this, I'd give templar the option to pay a fee to look up the contents of someone's bank account.  This one might not be codedly feasible though.

[Saellyn]

If you want to offer metal, it has to be REALLY specific items that aren't too big. Metal is something of a fanciful deal. It can't be weapons or armor. Maybe like small bracelets or something. I really don't want this to transition out into a metal-heavy world.

[CodeMaster]

What does "balance" even mean?

I'll define it as "add more things that players will be naturally inclined to use their money for".  Here's a few ideas:

  - Widely differential stabling and more cheaper mounts.  A beat up, withered old beetle could be slow as hell and cost as little as 5 or 10 coins to stable (I'd love to see more Byn runners riding absolute trash mounts). While an Inix, the Buick of Zalanthan mounts, should probably be prohibitive at 100 or even 200 coins (having a half-giant around should be as expensive as it is worth it).

 - Small rewards for eating good food.  The more expensive the food you are eating is, the greater your chance of getting a small +1 stamina regen for eating it (filling you up beyond the normal resting cap that you have to sleep to surpass, maybe even to full stamina).  Since this bonus would be auto-determined based on food item value, some food prices might have to be adjusted accordingly.

 - Cheaper apartments but with special guard NPCs that players can give money to using the normal commands.  But the NPC has a script that records who has given it money, and it will wander the halls lingering at doors in proportion to how much the owner has given to them.  Non-tenant burglars could also give the guard money, which would encourage it to stay at the front desk.  This would yield a kind of blind auction system that has the potential to suck up a lot of coins.

[Molten Heart]

I'd evaluate all the resources and make them more scare. This world limit foraging and hunting.

I'd expand the idea of "sim desert" to keep track of hunting, keeping a virtual population of each critter population in a zone that'd change also based seasons and over or under hunting.

I'd making foraging and other gathering depleate the world in a way that change it. Making holes in the case of foraging for rocks but also depleting sources of things, like foraging for artifacts in certain places.

I'd create a web tool that searched the crafting database and created a crafting tree for any object entered. It'd list the value of the item, the value of every object crafted from or used to craft the item, and the buy and sell price from each avsilable  merchant in the game (broken down by geographic location.) Then I'd use the tool to evaluate existing items in the game and adjust as needed.

I'd give clan leaders more ability to reward clan employees with cash bonuses and other rewards. I'd also create new things to spend money on, like automated Tor academy access (to socialize, not necessarily join as a full member but enough to socialize.) Create trade guilds that'd offer special perks like special shops/prices and other minor perks to those willing to pay membership dues.

I'd let certain merchants, like hide/skin merchants) buy an unlimited amount of things with deminidhing returns offered when sold all at one time.

[Erythil]

If you want to offer metal, it has to be REALLY specific items that aren't too big. Metal is something of a fanciful deal. It can't be weapons or armor. Maybe like small bracelets or something. I really don't want this to transition out into a metal-heavy world.

I agree.  But right now it's a completely metal-free world.  Gold and steel should be mythical and rare.  But I've seen exactly two non-noble metal items in my many years playing, and that strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive.

I think there's been an overcompensation from the peak of the CAM-era, plainsman shenanigans-accented, everybody-has-all-reaches and steel undergarments mythical eras of the past.  As it stands there's a lot of cool things that could be circulating in limited quantities that don't circulate at all.  Would people kill each other for them?  Certainly.  And I think that's a good thing.

[Delirium]

If you want to offer metal, it has to be REALLY specific items that aren't too big. Metal is something of a fanciful deal. It can't be weapons or armor. Maybe like small bracelets or something. I really don't want this to transition out into a metal-heavy world.

I agree.  But right now it's a completely metal-free world.  Gold and steel should be mythical and rare.  But I've seen exactly two non-noble metal items in my many years playing, and that strikes me as unnecessarily restrictive.

I think there's been an overcompensation from the peak of the CAM-era, plainsman shenanigans-accented, everybody-has-all-reaches and steel undergarments mythical eras of the past.  As it stands there's a lot of cool things that could be circulating in limited quantities that don't circulate at all.  Would people kill each other for them?  Certainly.  And I think that's a good thing.

Yes. Bring some of the mythical wonder back. Just not all of it. That was overkill.

[BadSkeelz]

Bring back the mythical wonder so we can kill it.

[Lizzie]

The same way I've been suggesting every time the topic comes up. Change how the NPCs buy/sell product, but mostly how they buy it. Currently: A given NPC will buy up to 5 of any given item, and then not buy any of that item again until either game reset, or a built-in script has him "sell a few things" and that particular item gets chosen as the item it sells - which means ONE more of that item can sell to the NPC, until the next game reset. And the NPC  will only buy up to 5 of those items, IF he has enough sids to buy them with. If not, you might not even be able to undervalue it to a single sid, if the NPC doesn't have a single sid to pay out. This happens frequently.

How I'd like to see it:

The NPC will buy up to 2 of whatever he buys, from ANY PC, per game-month. So if you have 5 silky braes, 3 purple djellabahs, 7 white djellabahs, a large bag, and one of each carved wooden chest, the NPC will buy each of those wooden chests, the bag, 2 braes, 2 purple djellabahs, and 2 white djellabahs from you, for that RL week. He won't buy any more of those specific items from you until the month's timer runs out, but he will buy 2 of whatever else he buys, from you, that month (on a rolling month, not a calendar month). If 4 other people show up with the exact same stuff to sell, he'll buy the exact same stuff from them, in the exact same quantity. No more than 2 per item per PC per month.

This will help reduce stockpiling, though it won't eliminate it. It'll eliminate completely the whole "Amos's player is able to play 24/7 and therefore is always around when the game resets, that's why he gets to sell everything to the NPCs before they run out of sids, and the rest of us are fucked."

You can adjust the value max of this system, by making it so that the total payout for the month can't exceed 1000 sids (or however else) per NPC, per PC. So if you go to 20 NPCs you could effectively earn as much as 20,000 per month, assuming they are NPCs who buy the types of things you're trying to sell. But make it based on the PC who shows up to sell stuff, instead of the NPC who is there 24/7 buying and selling virtually and codedly. You can *also* tweak the haggle skill so that if a PC has already haggled to more than "x%" higher than the NPC's offer for more than 3 or 4 items, then the NPC will refuse to haggle further, and will only give you what he offers initially. He won't kick you out, but he won't let you haggle up for another month.

[CodeMaster]

I'd evaluate all the resources and make them more scare. This world limit foraging and hunting.

I think this would have the opposite effect, but I guess it depends on how you mean.  I think it was Synthesis who made the point that if you make these things (even coins) grindier to obtain, then people will just end up grinding more.  Which would exacerbate the problem you're trying to fix.  If you make these items deadlier to obtain, then I think we're onto something.

[edit: also I read your sentence in Tommy Wiseau's voice]

[wizturbo]

Yes. Bring some of the mythical wonder back. Just not all of it. That was overkill.

My #1 thing I'd like to see added into the game.  The key though, is to have it done subtly.  CAM was blatant in your face magick extreme.  The same level of magick could be introduced into the game, but placed in the hands of players with clear motivations to keep it low key.

[Molten Heart]

I'd evaluate all the resources and make them more scare. This world limit foraging and hunting.

I think this would have the opposite effect, but I guess it depends on how you mean.  I think it was Synthesis who made the point that if you make these things (even coins) grindier to obtain, then people will just end up grinding more.  Which would exacerbate the problem you're trying to fix.  If you make these items deadlier to obtain, then I think we're onto something.

[edit: also I read your sentence in Tommy Wiseau's voice]

The idea is that raw materials would become more scarce because their sources would become used up, this would make other more dangerous areas more desirable because they'd be relatively untouched. This is the way I believe the game world envisions it and is supposed to be. This would let the code back that up.

[Lizzie]

I'd evaluate all the resources and make them more scare. This world limit foraging and hunting.

I think this would have the opposite effect, but I guess it depends on how you mean.  I think it was Synthesis who made the point that if you make these things (even coins) grindier to obtain, then people will just end up grinding more.  Which would exacerbate the problem you're trying to fix.  If you make these items deadlier to obtain, then I think we're onto something.

[edit: also I read your sentence in Tommy Wiseau's voice]

The idea is that raw materials would become more scarce because their sources would become used up, this would make other more dangerous areas more desirable because they'd be relatively untouched. This is the way I believe the game world envisions it and is supposed to be. This would let the code back that up.

The game's "economic balance" is already tipped in favor of people who are available to play most often, because of game resets and crash reboots. The more you play, the more likely you are available to be the first in line to sell "five of each" to the NPC. Making it harder to acquire the materials will not solve that, and in fact will put MORE power into the hands of people who play more often, because again - they will be the first in line to use up all the resources, leaving nothing for those who happen to log in an hour later each day, or a day after the game reset. It'll only encourage spam-hunting and stockpiling, which defeats the purpose of "balancing" the economy.

[Synthesis]

Yet again, I have to point out that most NPC merchants have more 'sid after long uptimes than they do on reboots.  Sure, you have to diversify what you're selling to them, but that basically benefits rangers and merchants who have the ability to hunt or craft diverse shit...not necessarily any player who's logged in a lot.  And really, there's not -much- wrong with that system.

A reboot gives you a chance to dump any of the cheap shit you might've been hoarding, if you were specifically planning on catching a reboot, but hoarding in and of itself poses a huge cost in terms of either rent or bag-space, so it's not like hoarding is particularly easy.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm not too sure I'd do anything to the actual economy. I mean, nothing to vendors, banks, etc.

But I would create code so that everything wore out. Almost everything, that is.

All foot-wear and clothing, including packs, belts, etc, on a room-counter adjusted by quality and material. Repaired clothing would bear the repaired flag. Packs which were allowed to go to the farthest reachs of wear would become unusable. Sandstorms, by the way, would alter the room-counter a lot. You might go into a blinding storm with new clothes and come out of it with most of your new, unflagged gear now tattered.

All weapons, on a hit counter, obviously determined by quality. Only some weapons could be repaired - those that were would bear the repaired flag. I'd also add sharpening kits to repair edged weapons. Blunt weapons would generally not be repairable.

All armo ... wait, that's fine. I'm good with this. Also, add a room-counter.

All food would go bad, based on a IC-time counter. Raw food would go bad far faster. Dried food and nuts would remain good for the longest.

All liquid would evaporate on an IC-time counter.

All mounts would age and die.

All wagons would require repair via the wagon-crafting skill, based on a room-counter. Walla, use for wagon parts AND the skill.

All pet objects would age and die, based on an IC-time counter.

All hides would have to be tanned within an IC week, or spoil. This mirrors RL by the way, but is way more lenient. 'Tool' required for tanning hides? Salt, or brains. This is also a mirror of a real method, and the one most likely to be used by our Zalanthans.

Wood would rot, based on an IC-timer AND usage-timer. So your chair would eventually break a leg and you'd need to go buy another.

Jewlery would become dull, and require a polishing kit to return to an un-flagged status.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but you get the idea. Simply by eliminating anything that lasts forever, you create a giant money sink and you allow people to visually see the harshness of the world. You create business for everyone, and uses for things previously considered flavor.

Oh, and anything on your person when you logged out would have the counter stopped. It would be silly to have a newbs clothes go to tattered status because he stopped playing for a couple of IC years, or his food to go bad while he's off-line.

[Old Kank]

Here's what I'd like to see, though I have no idea how it would work in practice:

I'd like the basic utility of 'sid to be changed, and I'd like PCs to be the primary entry-point for 'sid getting into the game.  No more grebbing for 'sids.  No more sitting in your apartment crafting worthless shit to suck every coin off an NPC shopkeeper.  No more rolling through the scrubs and returning to town with thousands of 'sids worth of hides.

Clan leaders get a large stipend, and rules on how those stipends need to be distributed.  Payroll manager NPCs need to be loaded, adjusted, linked to clan accounts, or otherwise controlled by clan leaders.

'Sid coins are used pretty much exclusively for the following: High end GMH goods, fancy/unique mounts, NPC followers, warehouses/shops, luxury housing, and large scale projects like wagons/festivals/new buildings.

A barter system that allows the common folk to exchange their hides/salt/gems/crafted trinkets for the basic necessities like food, water, and run-of-the-mill clothing, armor, mounts, etc.  Maybe this could be done by having a second, substandard currency, and maybe 'sids could be used to buy down, I don't know.

Basically: if you work hard, you won't have any trouble making it in the world, but if you want to get rich then you'd better be ready to service your betters.

[Mordiggian]

For the record, we do encourage PCs in our tribal clans to avoid coins and utilize a barter system as much as possible 

[Bushranger]

For the record, we do encourage PCs in our tribal clans to avoid coins and utilize a barter system as much as possible 

Alcohol, spice and sex are great bartering tools but who wants alcohol, spice or sex when it comes from an elf?

[Mordiggian]

the al'seik and arabet aren't elves