Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Nyr]

As with most changes, I feel that if a lot of the information that came out in the thread -- first of several planned changes, will take social status into account later, these are the breakdowns, we are pretending this has always been there so talk to your clan staff if you have a specific problem -- was put into the initial post, there would have been a lot less confusion and negative reaction.  At least on my part.  This isn't a complaint, just an observation.  Obligatory friendly smiley 

Answer:  the code goes as most code releases go--meaning after it is tested, reviewed, and merged in, it will go live at the next maintenance session reboot.  That was Monday.  I noticed it was live Monday morning after the reboot and put up a short post about it to reiterate what was in the weekly update on it, because someone wished up about it in-game.  I wanted to wait for Nessalin to be around to determine what information we could provide about this change--how much detail about the code is he comfortable revealing?  Often, we don't reveal the guts of what goes on with code changes, or "what's next" because pinning a timeline on free code development is a bit nebulous.  However, after we both saw that the "20%" figure was being bandied about like it affected everyone (and not those with accounts 15000-29999, which is reasonably well-off if nothing else), he put that info up, and I also indicated that yes, we have other stuff planned in relation to these changes.

Yes, generally, we do try to give more notice (or more explanation) for things that affect players.  It is difficult to do that after the fact.  We'll make sure to have more info available in the future! 

[Lizzie]

Hmmm.. singular coins or gems that are worth stacks of obsidian coins....

Pickpocket griefing begin!

Never tried pickpocketing (and it's probably some super sekrit IC info) but...

If I have 1 pile of 2000 coins

or

4 wampum beads each worth 500 sids

I'd rather have the thief steal 1 bead
rather than 1 pile.

[Saellyn]

AFAIK steal takes a portion of the money, not the whole pile, but at higher levels it takes a bigger portion. Maybe it DOES steal the whole damn pile. I dunno, I've never been a pickpocket.


And the PP griefers people talk about WILL steal all four of your wampum beads. The coolio ones will take one and cut their losses. Honestly, steal is wicked OP at max level. You can literally open peoples cloaks and shit without them noticing.

[Sunburned]

I feel like there should be some kind of info board in the bank for the sake of new players, so that they're not side-blinded when their coin evaporates upon withdrawal.  Most people tend to assume that banking in games functions with 100% efficiency unless told otherwise, and as a new implementation, it could be easily overlooked when folks are becoming acquainted with the game.

Realistically, the cost-benefit of banking with Nenyuk would be well-known to every commoner.

[Marauder Moe]

Would it?

I don't think it's terribly inappropriate for the game to screw someone out of some money with little warning.  There are far nastier surprises in the world, after all.

[valeria]

I feel like there should be some kind of info board in the bank for the sake of new players, so that they're not side-blinded when their coin evaporates upon withdrawal.  Most people tend to assume that banking in games functions with 100% efficiency unless told otherwise, and as a new implementation, it could be easily overlooked when folks are becoming acquainted with the game.

Realistically, the cost-benefit of banking with Nenyuk would be well-known to every commoner.

It's right there in "help bank".

[ShaLeah]

I don't know what would make it better for me. I for one won't be using the bank unless I need to. Most my commoners never clear a large anyway.

It doesn't 'sit right' that this change would affect big money people (GMHs and Noble Houses), after all, it's their money that's made Nenyuk in the first place (or is it Nenyuk's money that's made THEM). It never sat well with me that those in charge of money would be commoners. I always thought each city state should have a noble house do that, or better yet, the rulers, Bank of Tuluk and such.

I understand that there'd be fees incurred but I'd have felt much better if it was say, 5% of the balance an IC month.

I also think Nenyuk's made (and will continue to make) billions on keeping the sid off people who get dead.

Affiliated (clanned) people shouldn't be charged. Their organizations spend a lot of money there. *shrug*

Independent people should even get charged more. They make too much twinky sid.

[Erythil]

Another thought -- one of the things that people have complained about regarding money is that it's easy to have more of it than you can spend.  So, from staff's point of view, limiting the money supply in this way is a logical first step towards solving that problem.

If I can point to a parallel with MMOs -- whenever a class gets nerfed, everyone who plays it howls bloody murder, no matter how minor the change.  If an underpowered class gets buffed, generally people are all right with it.  But feeling like you had your toys taken away from you is never fun.  The negative response in many quarters to this move is essentially motivated by the same instinct.  People feel like they were blindsided by a punitive measure.

I think that if this new restriction on our ability to stockpile money were coupled with new high-end rewards (metal, mounts, enchanted lederhosen) for having a lot of money, the new state of affairs would be viewed less as an annoying inconvenience and more as an interesting challenge.  It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.

[ShaLeah]

It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.

If staff hated independents you wouldn't be selling razor tipped shit and braies for 1k+. You wouldn't be able to run to Luirs and sell shit that sells in Nak for peanuts and sell it for a lump of pure silver (exaggeration). I don't think staff hates independents ENOUGH.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff doesn't hate independents, the game world hates independents. Why? Because they're independents.

[Erythil]

It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.

If staff hated independents you wouldn't be selling razor tipped shit and braies for 1k+. You wouldn't be able to run to Luirs and sell shit that sells in Nak for peanuts and sell it for a lump of pure silver (exaggeration). I don't think staff hates independents ENOUGH.

I see the nature of playing an independent in armageddon as essentially high risk, high reward.  It's much harder to establish yourself without being in a clan.  With Tuluk gone, it's especially difficult to get a toehold as guild merchant.  It's very easy for an established clan to tear you and your allies apart if you do get established.  It's also easy for a templar to fleece you senseless.  The best way to handle independents, in my opinion, is at the player level, and I've seen some of this 'handling' carried out pretty savagely IC.

[Adhira]

Staff doesn't hate independents, the game world hates independents. Why? Because they're independents.

[Desertman]

Yeah.

I wonder how many independents get killed doing independent things every RL week and how many House Family/employees get killed every RL week doing House things?

There is a reason indy folks who actually manage to survive (extremely rare) for any REAL length of time can make some decent money. They live the epitome of high risk vs high reward.

How many indies are ever truly successful? How many make names for themselves that will last through the years?

Now how many House members build monuments and end up in the history docs comparatively?

Wealth is FAR from the measure of success in this game. If you are depending on wealth to give you power, then you will never really have any power anyways. It's relationships and your ability to foster them with the right people that give you power. Money has very little to do with it.

If you are in a House and you believe some random indy making money is somehow keeping you down or hurting your ability to be successful....the sad news is, your problems have nothing to do with that indy.

[Majikal]

Most of my pc's never touch the bank before they see the Mantis head, they're living out of their tiny apartment and pocketful of sid. If you're stacking multiple thousands of sid in the bank and are upset about the taxes chances are you're not the average commoner and are only now seeing the struggle any commoner might see in climbing out of thier caste. If you don't even want to think about putting your tiny sids in the bank because of the 20 coin tax on your 100 coins, congratulations you're just as broke as 99 percent of the people in Zalanthas.

[flurry]

I really like this change, but one thing (actually from Random Armageddon Thoughts, but on this topic) caught my attention.

what if you withdraw 50 coins

Hell, what if you withdraw 1 coin.  I'll ask Nessalin if he can change it to tell the prospective bankee "don't waste my time with your piddly shit" or as Delirium suggests "That's cute."

As an alternative, I would suggest that the fee should come out of the account balance, rather than out of the amount received from the teller.

Example: Amos has 2000 coins in the bank. He withdraws 75 coins. The teller hands over 75 coins, and the new account balance is 1875 (i.e. 125 less than it was before the transaction, to account for the 75 coins as well as the 50 fee). If the starting balance isn't enough for the amount requested plus the fee, the transaction doesn't happen.

(As a real life parallel, if you withdraw $50 from an ATM with a $2 fee, you still physically receive $50, not $48. The fee just comes out of the account balance.)

Of course the player can math it themselves to get the desired result, but I think this way is much more intuitive, and will prevent some newbie frustration.

And if I misunderstand and this is already how things work, then disregard this.

[Alesan]

I really like this change, but one thing (actually from Random Armageddon Thoughts, but on this topic) caught my attention.

what if you withdraw 50 coins

Hell, what if you withdraw 1 coin.  I'll ask Nessalin if he can change it to tell the prospective bankee "don't waste my time with your piddly shit" or as Delirium suggests "That's cute."

As an alternative, I would suggest that the fee should come out of the account balance, rather than out of the amount received from the teller.

Example: Amos has 2000 coins in the bank. He withdraws 75 coins. The teller hands over 75 coins, and the new account balance is 1875 (i.e. 125 less than it was before the transaction, to account for the 75 coins as well as the 50 fee). If the starting balance isn't enough for the amount requested plus the fee, the transaction doesn't happen.

(As a real life parallel, if you withdraw $50 from an ATM with a $2 fee, you still physically receive $50, not $48. The fee just comes out of the account balance.)

Of course the player can math it themselves to get the desired result, but I think this way is much more intuitive, and will prevent some newbie frustration.

And if I misunderstand and this is already how things work, then disregard this.

+1

Much more intuitive, I like it.

[Molten Heart]

Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.

[Nyr]

Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.

You mean something like this?

Code Select Expand


= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

Because that is what it does now when you check your balance.

[wizturbo]

Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.

You mean something like this?

Code Select Expand


= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

Because that is what it does now when you check your balance.

I think he means something like this, which is what I'd like to see as well:

Code Select Expand


= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."


[aeglaeca]

This is a pretty tiny suggestion, but I also think decimals are a bit weird to see in the world of Zalanthas. I'm not even sure if percentages would really exist/be used? It would be cool if it was more like:

Code Select Expand


The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large, we will be assessing a fee of 15 coins for every 100 taken out."


[Alesan]

This is a pretty tiny suggestion, but I also think decimals are a bit weird to see in the world of Zalanthas. I'm not even sure if percentages would really exist/be used? It would be cool if it was more like:

Code Select Expand


The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large, we will be assessing a fee of 15 coins for every 100 taken out."


I like this. If that fee could be taken out of the balance and not the withdrawal as suggested a few posts earlier, I would like the overall bank change a lot more. As it is, I don't like it a whole lot.

[Molten Heart]

Code Select Expand


= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."


Exactly what I meant. I'm imagining a discussion a merchant might have when they ask their potential customer what their price range is and they aren't sure because they don't know how much -real- money they have in the bank.

[Eyeball]

Have to wonder why people think that every PC should either be a clan leader or a clan minion with his/her lips firmly planted on a clan leader's butt, and if they don't, they should be punished, punished, punished (looking at you, BadSkeelz). Maybe it's born of the frustration some clan leaders have had trying to recruit people and not finding it to be totally an employer's market the way they'd like. In which case I'd suggest restructuring things to increase the incentives to join rather than decreasing the incentive to play independently.

[Miko]

Have to wonder why people think that every PC should either be a clan leader or a clan minion with his/her lips firmly planted on a clan leader's butt, and if they don't, they should be punished, punished, punished (looking at you, BadSkeelz). Maybe it's born of the frustration some clan leaders have had trying to recruit people and not finding it to be totally an employer's market the way they'd like. In which case I'd suggest restructuring things to increase the incentives to join rather than decreasing the incentive to play independently.

This post made me really happy for the change. I still support it. Clan lockers are looking mighty sweet right now.

[flurry]

Code Select Expand


= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."


I think it's a good idea in principle, but awkward if the command to withdraw 8500 remains as 'withdraw 10000'.