Is it wrong that I want to kill all of you?

[Kismetic]

I dunno, I actually thought this thread was about whether there was enough danger and conflict in this game.  You appear to have your own referendum.

Could I ask possibly how many of the people who think the game is too tame are actually playing it right now?

[ibusoe]

I dunno, I actually thought this thread was about whether there was enough danger and conflict in this game.  You appear to have your own referendum.

Could I ask possibly how many of the people who think the game is too tame are actually playing it right now?

You could ask that, however I think it would be beside the point.  If my opinion is needed, there is the EXACT RIGHT AMOUNT OF MCB currently in the game.  I had a glance at the original post and agree with your assessment in that sense.

However that's not what certain of other players were alluding to.  Secretive Clan-based PVP?  Apparently there's plenty.  Crime?  Plenty, my last few characters have been robbed like fuck.  Racism?  Harassment?  Yeah, lots of it.  There were some scenes in the Gaj the other day that were really mean and intense.  I love it.

But what certain of other players are alluding to is the lack of Open Clan-based PVP.  I was personally corroborating that this is largely absent, and I'll stick by my diagnosis of the issue.

I'll stop short of raising a complaint about it, because it wouldn't really improve my gaming experience for there to be more of it.  If anything, having large groups of people who simply refuse to talk to other large groups of people would be limiting.

My actual purpose in speaking up, though was out of journalistic integrity.  Plenty of people are telling them that there is lot of Open Clan-based PVP, when in fact there isn't.  It's somewhat comical that a staffer came in here to suggest that Secretive Clan-based PVP is an acceptable substitute for Open Clan-based PVP, because that's sort of a "let them eat cake" argument.

Is there an easy solution to this problem?  Maybe not.  The game is pretty much optimized in my opinion, which means that if resources were pulled to create more open conflict, that would pull resources away from the criminal plots, the political intrigues and the mercantile adventures.  Things would probably be better if we had more players, because then we could recruit more staffers and then we could do more with the game.

[Kismetic]

If my opinion is needed, there is the EXACT RIGHT AMOUNT OF MCB currently in the game.

I'm glad you said that.  I don't wanna feel like I need to start killing people for looking at my character funny or some stupid insult given.  That's not really a stretch for them, though, so ...  How does that song go?  "If you got the money, honey, I got the time!"

[Clearsighted]

If my opinion is needed, there is the EXACT RIGHT AMOUNT OF MCB currently in the game.

I'm glad you said that.  I don't wanna feel like I need to start killing people for looking at my character funny or some stupid insult given.  That's not really a stretch for them, though, so ...  How does that song go?  "If you got the money, honey, I got the time!"

For the game being what it is, geopolitically, the level of MCB is fine. And again, it's highly personal. We each largely determine the amount of MCB that we surround ourselves with, depending on the circumstances we find our characters in. Given what circumstances and opportunities currently exist in game, most characters really would need to bend over backwards to arbitrarily include more mayhem in their lives.

What bothers me, and some others, is that the current clan setup is boring, with a lack of the kind of institutional tension that once characterized rival city-states or rival tribes. With vanishingly rare exceptions, everyone is pretty much playing on the 'same side', and the main threats tend to be NPCs who everyone rallies against. There's still internal pissing contests and some deviant gets stomped now and then (with people more or less tripping over themselves to do the honor), but there's nothing like an organized rivalry of opposing PC-populated factions.

If it does exist, it's so subtle and secretive that the masses are largely unaware of it. Which might make things exciting for the elite, but a bit more dull for the rank and file.

Personally, I find the lamest conflict with another real player character more exciting than the most brilliant written conflict with an NPC (it's just the nature of 'competing' against another human), so for me, this is an unfortunate state of affairs. I remain optimistic though, because I think the issue will resolve itself, as staff acclimates to the post-Tuluk world. I say this because I've seen them make several good decisions lately about the game's direction, and I can't imagine they would overlook the void created by removing mutually antagonistic factions from the game. After all, the best part of having Tuluk, with the most fun and excitement, was when Allanak and Tuluk were really having at it, with opposing raids and patrols.

[Taven]

I think staffers generally feel like a lot is going on as they spend most of their time observing and reacting to the hidden masterminds. But you have to see it from the perspective of Bill Bynner and Tim Tribal, or even Greg Grebber too. They see nothing going on. Maybe they'll die in some RPT, but that's as close as they'll get. Tribal pvp-rp has essentially devolved into taking pot shots at rogue gickers and not angering the Sun Runners, who lacking a credible Gith or Blackwing foil are hugely over represented, power wise.

Bill Bynner -- If Bill is some nobody who just joined the Byn, he might not know why those firekanks are being rounded up. It's his job to just be a meat shield. If Bill Bynner is a long-lived, highly-involved Trooper who has proved dependable to the Sergeant, then maybe he'd know that House Bwaha is planning on lighting House Tehehe's barracks on fire with them. But if Bill Bynner is literally some nobody, why would he know the reasons? For all the Sergeant knows, Bill Bynner is trying to be a spy for House Tehehe, and telling him would cause major problems later. Unless Bill Bynner needs to know or has earned the right, why would he know?

Tim Tribal -- Tim is a tribal. Is he from a hard coded tribe? Then maybe he can learn about what's happening from his tribemates, and help them. Tribes are close, so sharing of information for Tim might be more common then it is for Bill. But even so, Tim doesn't get a free pass. If he's not helping in some way that advances the plot, things might not be brought up to him, by his fellows. How can Tim contribute to his tribe? Or, how can Tim figure out what's happening with other tribes? If Tim is tribe A, and tribe B and C are having a spat, unless they think tribe A can help them, they're probably not inclined to tell Tim Al'A very much.

Greg Grebber -- Greg Grebber grebs. He doesn't work for a House. He's not lifesworn to anyone. Unless he makes friends with people who are oddly chatty, or Allanak is covered in riots and on fire, he's probably not going to notice a lot of plots. Even if he does, unless he has friends and influence, or some sort of affiliations, he's probably not going to have much of an impact on what happens. Why? Because... Who cares about a nobody grebber?

Firstly, the main concern is about clan-wide dispositions and rivalry which can promote mass organized rp-pvp with legitimate reasons to work against each other. Staff are great at giving pcs and npcs good and interesting reasons to oppose each other, but outside a select few, have done a poor job of setting a stage for interesting conflict for anyone who isn't their clan spymaster.

I don't know that staff can be held responsible for how clans function in relations to plots. If Lord NPCfablous tells Lady PCawesome of The Issue, it's up to Lady PCawesome to decide how she wants to handle it. Why? Because she's a leader PC. She can utilize minions and other clans however she sees fit. If she only wants to involve the clan spymaster, it's probably because she decided he's the only one with relevant skills to the issue. If you're not lifesworn, or if she doesn't know you well, maybe she doesn't want to risk exposing you to the Big Issue. That's not staff's fault. That's not even her fault! That's just one realistic, IC way to take and handle a plot.

Furthermore, not all plots even originate with staff! Sometimes, it's a PC who comes up with it to begin with. Even if it's PC-originating, that PC is making the same judgement calls. In a world full of MCB, nobody's entitled to being involved in a plot, when one wrong move can cause all the pieces to tumble apart.

Have I sometimes wished I was involved in more plots? Do I wish leadership had trusted my PC more? Absolutely. I've been there. It can suck to not feel like stuff's happening, or not be involved--But I do think the solution is to look for more ways to be involved. I think the opportunities are out there, just waiting to be approached right.

Secondly, the most obvious example of organized rp-pvp rivalry was recently extinguished by the closure of all the Tuluk clans. Closing Tuluk was a good thing, but the game needs a new more tangible rivalry for the plebs to grasp.

I mean, there's a lot of easy to grasp rivalry... Like, say, Oash and Borsail. They don't like each other. Great Merchant Houses and Independent Groups. Maybe they ignore each other, maybe one wants to murder the shit out of the other. Or, you know, the Guild. There's reasons for some people to want to use them, and for other people to want to hate the shit out of them. Zalanthas is a game that is really built around rivalries, and the potential for PCs to pursue those rivalries.

The difference is that now, it's harder to go "oh the entire city should hate these people, because they're the enemy!". Now, you have more complex, conflicting views about any group. You have more opportunities for betrayal. Because heck, maybe Informant Amos would never have betrayed you to those filthy northern scum (all 'Nakki hate them!), but you can't trust that he won't tell House Bwaha about your plans. That could make people more cautious, but it's also making Allanak's political scene more nuianced.

That, and closing Tuluk means you have all the would-be Tuluki players instead playing PCs in your area, plotting in subtler ways. 

[...] The unimportant people of Zalanthas deserve conflict and rivalry too.

Sometimes I wish staff would get away from their plot fascinations having to be these big epic affairs with mindbenders, magick, templars and dragons. A 'plot' as simple as two tribes competing over the same watering hole, or two merchant houses competing over the same caravan road or for exclusive privileges with some outpost or city would be infinitely more interesting as a change of pace. Either conflict might start small but could rapidly grow to affect many others, such as the Byn deciding whose contract to accept.

This could already be happening. But if Tim Tribal's people are fighting over a watering hole, Greg Grebber won't have any idea. Nor will Bill Bynner, because why would Tim Tribal involve the Byn? If the Merchant Houses were fighting over a trade route, Tim Tribal and Greg Grebber both might not have reasons to know. Sure, maybe Bill Bynner would know. Or maybe Merchant Moolah is just going to hire the local Guild Assassin to kill the shit out of Agent Amos. If it's the latter, then your common day person isn't going to see it.

I guess what I'm saying here is, there's a lot of different plots out there. But the more irrelevant you are to people, the more irrelevant you are to their plots. If people have a reason to involve you, if you give them a reason to involve you, then you'll see them. But if it doesn't make IC sense to tell Greg Grebber, they're not going to tell the grebber nobody.

[Kismetic]

I think your expectations are just unrealistic, sorry to say.  What you're asking for has proven time and again to be quite a bit more dull than the alternative, which is layered plotting.  What you want is the Copper Wars, which was what?  A two week affair of bloody conflict?  Then it's over.  And you're writing out these long-winded diatribes about clans and inter-clan conflict, but this is what you're asking for.  Outright, bloody conflict.  It is not sustainable, and frankly, if that's all there ever was, cyclical tactless conflict?  I'd be so bored.  I can't speak for the rest of the playerbase, but without the intrigue, I think I'd just go play a graphical PVP game, because combat on Arm is a joke.

[Clearsighted]

I think your expectations are just unrealistic, sorry to say.  What you're asking for has proven time and again to be quite a bit more dull than the alternative, which is layered plotting.  What you want is the Copper Wars, which was what?  A two week affair of bloody conflict?  Then it's over.  And you're writing out these long-winded diatribes about clans and inter-clan conflict, but this is what you're asking for.  Outright, bloody conflict.  It is not sustainable, and frankly, if that's all there ever was, cyclical tactless conflict?  I'd be so bored.  I can't speak for the rest of the playerbase, but without the intrigue, I think I'd just go play a graphical PVP game, because combat on Arm is a joke.

My expectations are unrealistic? Okaaaaay...It's completely unrealistic to expect that the game hearkens back to how it used to be for a decade-plus. I don't want a continuous Copper War. But you seem unable to separate the two-week climax of the Copper War, with the fact that, for many RL years, numerous antagonistic clans existed that don't anymore. Like, say, Tuluk and all of its factions, not to mention quite a few tribes and races.

It's not unrealistic to want some semblance of that back.

Your whole post just struck me as a completely exaggerated joke. You're not reading what I'm writing, you're just jumping to the most zany conclusions. Nothing that I have suggested is unrealistic. I merely want the game to get back to its roots in a few areas. If that's not a game you'd want to play, then I am surprised you're even still here.

Very long post.

Hey, that's great. I think you jump to a few very idealistic conclusions, but that's fine too. The heart of my assertion stays the same: There should be more PC-focused rp-pvp mundane conflicts and rivalries which are more easily understood and tangibly relevant to more of the population. An example might be the Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry. Now that the organized PC-focused Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry is no more, it should be replaced with something.

Secondly, current rivalries could stand to be a little less obtuse and a little less subtle. Not hugely, or taken to some ridiculously kismetic-esque straw man degree. But something tangible to more than just a couple opposing clan's core leadership and spymasters. The current kaleidoscope of clans in the 'South' resemble NATO more than anything else...even if countries within NATO do have occasional small scale disagreements or tensions.

Most of what people mistake for 'conflict' going around lately, is PCs reacting to NPCs and vice versa. And hey, that's great. This MUD has a superb staff who are great at bringing NPCs to life and having there be consequences in the game world. But currently the game is sorely lacking in 'meaty' player vs player antagonism, beyond some wink-wink/cloak-and-dagger stuff in Allanak. This is a departure from Armageddon's historical predispositions.

[Kismetic]

Lol, now I will just clown on you, man.  When has the conflict between Tuluk and Allanak EVER been interesting for more than a few weeks, tops?

[Clearsighted]

Lol, now I will just clown on you, man.  When has the conflict between Tuluk and Allanak EVER been interesting for more than a few weeks, tops?

Nice trolling.

[BadSkeelz]

The War was a massive pain in the ass and encouraged more derptitude than good PVP. Its best bits were non-PVP focused or actually PvE.

[Kismetic]

Lol, now I will just clown on you, man.  When has the conflict between Tuluk and Allanak EVER been interesting for more than a few weeks, tops?

Nice trolling.

I'm sorry, was I trolling?  Let's harken back to those days of yore, where enemy militia was allowed to be in the same room as a sorcerer king.  All them conflicts, man.   

Instead of using this tired straw man blah blah, why don't you frame your perfect Armageddon in a concise manner so that we might know what you're talking about. 

[Clearsighted]

The War was a massive pain in the ass and encouraged more derptitude than good PVP. Its best bits were non-PVP focused or actually PvE.

In my experience, the best parts of the Allanak vs Tuluk conflict actually happened between the wars. But the point is, it existed, and it brought something to the game that is currently lacking.

Allanak vs Tuluk is only one example as well. Another example is the Pah, where over time, a large number of competing tribes have essentially been reduced to a Sun Runner hegemony, with what would ICly be their main rivals, the Gith and the Blackwing, complete non-factors.

I'd like to see some of the energy and creativity that goes into giving various NPC politicians and factions in Allanak a voice...just a smidgen of it siphoned off to give the very powerful NPC factions in the Tablelands the occasional say in what goes on around them.

Lol, now I will just clown on you, man.  When has the conflict between Tuluk and Allanak EVER been interesting for more than a few weeks, tops?

Nice trolling.

I'm sorry, was I trolling?  Let's harken back to those days of yore, where enemy militia was allowed to be in the same room as a sorcerer king.  All them conflicts, man.    

Instead of using this tired straw man blah blah, why don't you frame your perfect Armageddon in a concise manner so that we might know what you're talking about.  

More trolling. Nice. You have no idea how happy it makes me to see someone that disagrees with me acting the way you are now.

Deliberately misinterpreting someone's statements, such as assuming I was referring back to like 1998, instead of say, only a couple years ago, is also a form of trolling.

[Mordiggian]

The War was a massive pain in the ass and encouraged more derptitude than good PVP. Its best bits were non-PVP focused or actually PvE.

In my experience, the best parts of the Allanak vs Tuluk conflict actually happened between the wars. But the point is, it existed, and it brought something to the game that is currently lacking.

Allanak vs Tuluk is only one example as well. Another example is the Pah, where over time, a large number of competing tribes have essentially been reduced to a Sun Runner hegemony, with what would ICly be their main rivals, the Gith and the Blackwing, complete non-factors.

I'd like to see some of the energy and creativity that goes into giving various NPC politicians and factions in Allanak a voice...just a smidgen of it siphoned off to give the very powerful NPC factions in the Tablelands the occasional say in what goes on around them.

The Blackwing should either get their own voice, or go the way of the gypsies and be replaced by a faction/tribe that current staff can stomach.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that things are the way you think they are in regards to the tribal situation but you are about six hundred percent incorrect.

[Clearsighted]

The War was a massive pain in the ass and encouraged more derptitude than good PVP. Its best bits were non-PVP focused or actually PvE.

In my experience, the best parts of the Allanak vs Tuluk conflict actually happened between the wars. But the point is, it existed, and it brought something to the game that is currently lacking.

Allanak vs Tuluk is only one example as well. Another example is the Pah, where over time, a large number of competing tribes have essentially been reduced to a Sun Runner hegemony, with what would ICly be their main rivals, the Gith and the Blackwing, complete non-factors.

I'd like to see some of the energy and creativity that goes into giving various NPC politicians and factions in Allanak a voice...just a smidgen of it siphoned off to give the very powerful NPC factions in the Tablelands the occasional say in what goes on around them.

The Blackwing should either get their own voice, or go the way of the gypsies and be replaced by a faction/tribe that current staff can stomach.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that things are the way you think they are in regards to the tribal situation but you are about six hundred percent incorrect.

Great! I'm looking forward to someday seeing the evidence of my being incorrect in-game.

[Kismetic]

Clearsighted, dude, I just don't care enough to sit there and write a fucking dossier for you.  Argue with Taven, she likes writing essays on the GDB ( <3 ).  The intent of the OP was to scare up some people to murder, corrupt and betray each other.  That shit is in full swing, ask anybody who's actually playing the game in a regular sense (and not playing in Morin's).  But hey, if you feel better about life because some asshole on the internet is trolling you, you're welcome.  Glad to be there. 

[ibusoe]

I think your expectations are just unrealistic, sorry to say.  What you're asking for has proven time and again to be quite a bit more dull than the alternative, which is layered plotting.  What you want is the Copper Wars, which was what?  A two week affair of bloody conflict?  Then it's over.  And you're writing out these long-winded diatribes about clans and inter-clan conflict, but this is what you're asking for.  Outright, bloody conflict.  It is not sustainable, and frankly, if that's all there ever was, cyclical tactless conflict?  I'd be so bored.  I can't speak for the rest of the playerbase, but without the intrigue, I think I'd just go play a graphical PVP game, because combat on Arm is a joke.

Rather than have this thread get locked, maybe it might be better to focus on the Copper Wars situation.  I skipped the (poorly named, they should have been a Skirmish) Copper Wars because that sort of role play didn't interest me.  Didn't people in general have a good time with the Copper Skirmish?  Wasn't that a high water mark of sorts?

The key advantages of this time were the semi-open recruitment.  People could simply create characters and then you were suddenly involved in military operations.  Is this a lot of work to organize?  Sure, probably.  Maybe it's something the staff don't care to maintain full time.  But certainly having a smaller scale, carefully tuned set of Skirmishes would be great for the sort of people who like that sort of thing?  Maybe once per (real life) quarter?

EDIT:  More edits to come.

[Taven]

Hey, that's great. I think you jump to a few very idealistic conclusions, but that's fine too. The heart of my assertion stays the same: should be more PC-focused rp-pvp mundane conflicts and rivalries which are more easily understood and tangibly relevant to more of the population. An example might be the Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry. Now that the organized PC-focused Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry is no more, it should be replaced with something.

I guess I just really don't understand what you want. I've been reading, I swear! But you seem to want:

1. Massive organized PvP
2. Small-scale plots that nobody PCs (Tim Tribal, Bill Bynner, and Greg Grebber) can be aware of and involved in
3. Plots that don't involve mindbenders, magic, templars, and dragons
4. Rivalries which are less "obtuse" and less "subtle"

I don't understand how you can have #1 without having #3. If Allanak is in a war, it's going to have templars and magic. It may have mindbenders and dragons. There's really no avoiding that. Also, #1 doesn't seem to match with #2. A massive organized PvP is not something small scale. Also, I'm really not sure what #4 means, as it seems to contradict. To me, obtuse says big, bulky, assumed and postured. Way over the top, right? But to be subtle is just the opposite. When you say that, it says to me that things aren't bold enough, that you can't tell anything is happening.

So... I guess I could just use some explanation of what it is that you're really after.

Most of what people mistake for 'conflict' going around lately, is PCs reacting to NPCs and vice versa. And hey, that's great. This MUD has a superb staff who are great at bringing NPCs to life and having there be consequences in the game world. But currently the game is sorely lacking in 'meaty' player vs player antagonism, beyond some wink-wink/cloak-and-dagger stuff in Allanak. This is a departure from Armageddon's historical predispositions.

I think you're way too resentful of stuff happening behind the scenes. I agree with Kismetic--Generally, large scale PvP conflict ends in a lot of sudden death. I don't believe it's really that satisfying. Even in the recent Allanaki-Tuluk conflict, the most interesting things happened behind the scenes, and weren't approachable to most of your run of the mill PCs.

The intent of the OP was to scare up some people to murder, corrupt and betray each other.  That shit is in full swing, ask anybody who's actually playing the game in a regular sense (and not playing in Morin's).

I can guarantee you, Clearsighted, he's right. Allanak has a lot of MCB going on, and it's player-on-player. If you're not seeing it, that's because there's not really a reason for you to, or you don't have the connections to (see my previous post for a more long-winded explanation). Likewise, I agree with Mordiggity. The tribal scene is hopping as well, and rife for MCB. Does Storm have MCB going on? It sure has the potential to, if it doesn't already. Morin's, who can say about the MCB? It's not really intended to be a player hub, as evidenced by the lack of clans or living space. I'm sure MCB still happens in the scrub anyways, though. You have the Akei Ta Var out there, and who doesn't love grassland elf betrayal?

I guess what I'm saying is, there's a lot of plot stuff happening. And it's plot stuff at a lot of different levels, for different people. The thing is, to be involved in plots, you have to have a reason for people to involve you. Long-term in-your-face plots aren't really very viable, and if they happen all the time, they get old fast, in my opinion.

Argue with Taven, she likes writing essays on the GDB ( <3 ).

See, I'm a source for MCB too! Who is this commoner, WRITING things!? Why are they here? Since when are they allowed to post serious things anyhow?!  

[Clearsighted]

Hey, that's great. I think you jump to a few very idealistic conclusions, but that's fine too. The heart of my assertion stays the same: should be more PC-focused rp-pvp mundane conflicts and rivalries which are more easily understood and tangibly relevant to more of the population. An example might be the Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry. Now that the organized PC-focused Allanak vs Tuluk rivalry is no more, it should be replaced with something.

I guess I just really don't understand what you want. I've been reading, I swear! But you seem to want:

1. Massive organized PvP
2. Small-scale plots that nobody PCs (Tim Tribal, Bill Bynner, and Greg Grebber) can be aware of and involved in
3. Plots that don't involve mindbenders, magic, templars, and dragons
4. Rivalries which are less "obtuse" and less "subtle"

Remove #1, and you've mostly got it. That leave us with:

1. Small-scale plots that nobody PCs (Tim Tribal, Bill Bynner, and Greg Grebber) can be aware of and involved in
2. Plots that don't involve mindbenders, magic, templars, and dragons
3. Rivalries which are less "obtuse" and less "subtle"

Sounds pretty good to me!

Massive organized pvp is just one example of what happens when clans have institutional rivalries. It's an exceptional situation, and in this case, such as the copper war, developed from myriad Southern organizations being in a war against myriad Northern organizations.

I'm not saying the game needs something like that, on that kind of scale. I wouldn't be averse to it happening every couple RL years, but that's not what I'm seeking.

But it could use more relevant and tangible reasons for clans/tribes to have more everyday friction with each other.

Personally, I think staff is already moving in this direction, and I think the majority of staff want this too. But I don't think we're there yet.

As a side note? I already said that a few clans in Allanak were in a good place, which staff could be justifiably proud of.

All of this kismetic stuff about large-scale pvp, or going to a graphic mmo if that's what I want, is just trolling straw man arguments, which have little if anything to do with what I'm after. Which is simply to introduce a bit more tension into the world, that is more overt and less subtle/behind the scenes. And again? I think staff are already moving in that direction. It's still true that they're better at doing big epic stuff with NPCs than setting up mundane frictions between PCs.

[Mordiggian]

It is safe to assume that unless all of these clans are confiding in your PC their behind-the-curtain shenanigans, you don't know the extent to which they are murdering, corrupting, and betraying!

[Clearsighted]

It is safe to assume that unless all of these clans are confiding in your PC their behind-the-curtain shenanigans, you don't know the extent to which they are murdering, corrupting, and betraying!

Right.

1. Small-scale plots that nobody PCs (Tim Tribal, Bill Bynner, and Greg Grebber) can be aware of and involved in
2. Plots that don't involve mindbenders, magic, templars, and dragons
3. Rivalries which are less "obtuse" and less "subtle"

I think a lot of exciting and interesting things are going on, but they're so restrictive, that to the vast majority of the playerbase, their causes and consequences are largely irrelevant. I think staff does a great job at the cloak-and-dagger, mastermind/conspiracy level of intrigue. I'd like to see more 'grass roots' plots.

I guess that's the last I'll post on this subject.

[Delirium]

I think another way to phrase what Clearsighted is trying to say is:

If a tree falls in the forest, but 80% of the playerbase doesn't see or hear of it, does it really matter?

That said, cloak and dagger secretive plots have their place and are a ton of fun. I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive.

[Alesan]

You either have to accept that you're not important enough to see any of the conflict going on, or make yourself important enough. I don't do the latter, so I stick with the former. Armageddon is a PVE MUD to me, and that's probably all it ever will be. I'm glad there's other people who can get more out of it, though.

[Mordiggian]

If Tim Tribal is planning to fuck over Bill Bynner and Bill Bynner is plotting to backstab Greg Grebber for cutting in on his job market, and none of them tell you about it, does that mean it's not happening?

@Clearsighted I'm not sure what you want here. Because you've dismissed certain pursuits in the past as 'pretend' (in a roleplaying game where we are all pretending) and the vibe I get is that you want things to happen that are either already happening (but not involving your particular PC) or can totally happen if somebody actually pursues it? You've given examples of things in the past that you would like to see, and they were all things PCs are entirely welcome to pursue, or even things that were/are happening.

If you feel like your ability to be involved in things you find interesting is limited by role of your current PC... maybe change things up? Play a different PC? Work with your clan mates or clan staff to come up with something?

Despite the mention of a High Templar, this bit from the chronology page is about a plot that was dreamed up entirely by PCs. PCs communicated their goals to staff. PCs communicated what they were doing to accomplish these goals. PCs communicated what they thought that might need (ICly and OOCly). PCs dealt with a lot of IC adversity both from the game world and other PCs. And then PCs went out and kicked ass. I would go as far as saying most active PCs in Tuluk participated in some fashion. Just as likely, there were probably a few people who had no clue what was going on, because not every PC is going to be involved in every thing.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

[Clearsighted]

If Tim Tribal is planning to fuck over Bill Bynner and Bill Bynner is plotting to backstab Greg Grebber for cutting in on his job market, and none of them tell you about it, does that mean it's not happening?

@Clearsighted I'm not sure what you want here. Because you've dismissed certain pursuits in the past as 'pretend' (in a roleplaying game where we are all pretending) and the vibe I get is that you want things to happen that are either already happening (but not involving your particular PC) or can totally happen if somebody actually pursues it? You've given examples of things in the past that you would like to see, and they were all things PCs are entirely welcome to pursue, or even things that were/are happening.

If you feel like your ability to be involved in things you find interesting is limited by role of your current PC... maybe change things up? Play a different PC? Work with your clan mates or clan staff to come up with something?

Despite the mention of a High Templar, this bit from the chronology page is about a plot that was dreamed up entirely by PCs. PCs communicated their goals to staff. PCs communicated what they were doing to accomplish these goals. PCs communicated what they thought that might need (ICly and OOCly). PCs dealt with a lot of IC adversity both from the game world and other PCs. And then PCs went out and kicked ass. I would go as far as saying most active PCs in Tuluk participated in some fashion. Just as likely, there were probably a few people who had no clue what was going on, because not every PC is going to be involved in every thing.

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

As I've said before. Most things are fine. Most things are getting better. I'm happy with the current direction of the game. I know that concerns which were valid six months or six years ago, are no longer valid, and might even have been seen to without even having the chance to find out about it yet.

I don't think it's wrong to draw attention to the fact that the game tends to focus more on secretive/subtle/conspiracy plots at the higher echelons and has, historically, had less in the way of 'grass roots' conflicts. I don't think it's wrong to wish it was balanced a bit more to the lower scale, mundane end of things.

Perhaps some people disagree. That's fine. But I don't think my opinion is either extraordinary or unrealistic. I'm generally content, because I think the game is moving in that direction regardless. Like it did with Tuluk, even though, before Tuluk closed, there were big threads about how it would never happen.

EDIT: For the record? Most things I post have virtually nothing to do with the satisfaction or dissatisfaction I have with my current role. It's just based on years of observations. I'm loving my current role, even if there's a lot of other stuff I'd like to do too.

[Eyeball]

n/m, futile