Is it wrong that I want to kill all of you?

[Harmless]

good topic and good discussion. good luck coming upwith novel solutions.

personally most antag concepts that are guaranteed to get kills or whatever bore me. once when i tried to roll up pcs with a background of enmity towards a certain group, the staffer reviewing it rejected in on the grounds that I had too recently been involved with said group with prior PCs to make the concept. I accepted this and accepted the possibility that I was partly OOC motivated. Since then, however, I haven't tried to roll up characters with hard enemies. I do roll characters with what I call a soft grudge.. one that need not lead to anything and one my PC wouldn't make sacrifices over. But guess what: that generates absolutely no plots.

i am unsure this one case contributes anything meaningful to the discussion. it is just food for thought, take it with a grain of salt.

[CodeMaster]

I find that the biggest barrier to long-term, interesting conflict that ends in murder is that a lot of PCs just disappear into the desert. It's so sad to make someone your new #1 enemy and then never get to see/kill them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVjkvaeFnQ

[Narf]

I'm of the opinion that even if you don't want to play a PKing antagonist you can still do your part to make the world harsher. When someone does PK, don't forget to be apathetically cavalier about it! Don't forget, you saw three VNPCs get murdered and robbed just last month. Show some lack of respect.

[Gunnerblaster]

I personally feel raider PC's are never long-lived, simply due to the fact that the player base lacks anything else to do BUT hunt them. So even if your desperate raider only steals a waterskin, chances are - That PC's going to go back to town and incite a 5,000 'sid bounty on your head, simply because they have copious amounts of indie 'sid lying around and have nothing better to spend it on.

If I were ever to make a raider-type, I'd probably try to have a 100% kill ratio because that's honestly the safest way to raid but I feel it doesn't really get the point across of the grittiness of the game, unless you go around piking up heads - Which your typical raider isn't going to do unless they want to intentionally draw attention to themselves.

[Eyeball]

I personally feel raider PC's are never long-lived, simply due to the fact that the player base lacks anything else to do BUT hunt them. So even if your desperate raider only steals a waterskin, chances are - That PC's going to go back to town and incite a 5,000 'sid bounty on your head, simply because they have copious amounts of indie 'sid lying around and have nothing better to spend it on.

Not always. My last character to get attacked by PCs barely managed to escape alive. He just marched through the city, past a PC templar even, without a word, assuming that no one would give a crap and just taking it as part of the risk of leaving the gates.

[KankWhisperer]

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If you kill indiscriminately then people bitch about the lack of roleplay and if you kill only if it makes IC sense then people bitch there's too many long lived characters.

[Gunnerblaster]

Not always. My last character to get attacked by PCs barely managed to escape alive. He just marched through the city, past a PC templar even, without a word, assuming that no one would give a crap and just taking it as part of the risk of leaving the gates.

And I genuinely wish that was the general reaction to such things, but it tends to not be, unfortunately.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It should be bad roleplay for a templar or soldiers, to give a shit about you being raided, unless you are Highborn, or possibly GMH family.

[bardlyone]

It should be bad roleplay for a templar or soldiers, to give a shit about you being raided, unless you are Highborn, or possibly GMH family.

This kind of blanket thinking does no one any good. I've had the sting of other BS like that said about my pcs before too. And why would they not care if you were an important tool to them or if the templar was secretly fucking you? Joe Shitcloak or Amos the Grebber, sure, but that's a pretty exclusionary setup you're aiming for venomz.

[MeTekillot]

Armageddon is a game of have and have-nots. Exclusionary is something we should strive to see a lot more of in-game.

[BadSkeelz]

Most players are idiots, too. Little to worry about PKing their characters.

[Clearsighted]

Raider concepts can be made to work. Like a Tuluki patriot that really hates gemmers. No need to worry about leaving survivors then. And anyone with the karma for a gemmer can probably take it in stride.

[AdamBlue]

I SWER UN ME FUKIN' MUM I'LL FUKN REK U M8.
U TINK U HAVIN A LAFF WELL WELL WELL WE'LL SEE H0W FUNNEH U'LL BE WEN I ROUND UP ME M8'S 'N SEE HOW WELL YER HED BOUNCE ON THE CURB, AYE?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It should be bad roleplay for a templar or soldiers, to give a shit about you being raided, unless you are Highborn, or possibly GMH family.

This kind of blanket thinking does no one any good. I've had the sting of other BS like that said about my pcs before too. And why would they not care if you were an important tool to them or if the templar was secretly fucking you? Joe Shitcloak or Amos the Grebber, sure, but that's a pretty exclusionary setup you're aiming for venomz.

I'm saying it because unless someone important to either the city or that templar is raided, ICly, that templar shouldn't give a shit. If I am out mining sid, and two elves come slap me, and I run in and tell a Templar, do you seriously think he should give a flying shit? Honestly, even if a GMH merchant told me, I'd be sorely tempted to come back with a "Tell you crew" line, but then I'd stop and think about the fact that the GMH merchant could gimmi silks at 1/2 price for five years or something. And obviously, Highborn can fuck your life up if you don't work with them, so baring ill relations, I'll probably care for them too.

But indie hunter #1489? Why would I risk death for that? He should have taken his ass outside with a group. Elves shoot arrows. With poison. I'm Highborn, that's a lowborn piece of shit. Nah, fuck that. And if I'm fucking that piece of low born shit who's so unconnected that nobody butme can back them up, maybe something is wrong with me. Fuck that.

Get raided.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I suppose, though, that some Templars might care. Maybe they have bat-carved battle-masks. By and large, most Templars wouldn't care much, beyond maybe sending out a patrol.

[Armaddict]

Raiders have gotten harder over time, because as noted, people have for some reason started giving a shit about outside the gates.  City resources get allocated to going after them.  Again, my previous character was a raider that pulled off -one successful raid- before he had a templar ordering mages out after him, and the Byn was riding out in full force for -free- whenever he was sighted, for something to do.

I agree with 7DV.  There is no really no excuse for when policing the wilds becomes a good time investment for the city, aside from rogue mages and sorcererers.  There aren't much in the way of trade routes for them to get in the way of (GMH's deal, they'd have to get involved and pay someone), the grebbers of the city don't contribute to the city's wealth (again, goes to traders, who would have to pay someone to get their interest), and so on.

That said...OP, I think you're good.  Start doin' it baby.  PK's don't end plots, they make 'em, in the grand scheme of things.

EDITED TO ADD:  By the way...I don't think this is a conscious effort, the drift described.  I think people worked harder to make things more newbie friendly, and stopped doing the 'Come hunt with me, so I can take your boots.'  Things became a bit more cooperative...but it left people thirsting for those antagonists to go after, when as I recall it...everyone had a bit of antagonist in them, once upon a time.  Player against player has become some sort of taboo thing where I don't really think it should be.  At the very least...get it back so that Joe Random at the bar asking you to follow him into the hostile wilds for group grebbing is not a 'sweet, protection' deal.  That's just...way too much trust for the zalanthan world to be healthy.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

To clarify, I didn't mean to make long liveds a focal point of my argument. I was mostly stating it - like evidence that the world has gone soft. I'm not advocating them merely because they're old, and possibly suffering from dementia.

But I love some of the attitudes that have come out here. It's good to see that there's still a hunger for... the danger. (Cue profile pic change.)

[Drayab]

I think part of the phenomenon of more long-lived PCs around can be attributed to an aging player base. I play more cautiously than I used to because I have become better at assessing risk. Or maybe I've just mellowed out, I don't know.

Personally, I get most of my enjoyment out of the game from the relationships my characters form. The longer the relationship lasts, the greater the enjoyment. And I'm not just talking about being buddy-buddy, but long-term, simmering grudges are nice. When I'm getting that kind of enjoyment from the game, PKing my nemesis just isn't worth the risk to my character or the loss of well-developed RP opportunities. And honestly, I don't get much enjoyment from casually killing other characters. If I ever decide to PK someone (and I very rarely do), then you can bet your ass that I will put a lot of planning into to make it a good one. Well, I haven't PK'd anyone in years, so there's that. My last two PKs were somebody trying to kill me, but their cunning plan didn't work out...

So, although I am not personally interested in playing a raider, I think they do occupy an important niche in the game. They make the game-world seem alive and dangerous. I do think that there is a tendency for overreaction against raider characters. Like narf said, be more apathetic! Patrolling the desert should be done with some ICly-compelling self-interest in mind. Examine your motivations - don't go raider hunting just because you (the player) are bored.

[Fergie]

I'd say we have anywhere between 5 and 10 PKs per week on a regular basis. Looks like in the 5 to 7 range over the past week, based on runlogs and PK reports. Is that not enough? That's around 2 to 4% of PCs dying to other PCs per week; or around 10% per RL month on the conservative side of the estimate.

It would seem that the problem isn't the volume of PCs killed, it's the lack of sustained conflict between groups of people leading to a boring, stale game where people have no real reason to be at odds. A handful of nobodies getting popped in the 'rinth each week doesn't change that. There's a palpable stagnation in the game and lack of everyday friction between people.

[valeria]

I don't know where this frictionless game that everyone else is playing is at.

[Synthesis]

I don't know where this frictionless game that everyone else is playing is at.

Yeah, I've been raided once, had my ENTIRE INVENTORY cleaned out by pickpockets twice, and had noobs try to kite aggro mobs to me twice...all in the last month or so.

[Talia]

I don't know where this frictionless game that everyone else is playing is at.

I agree. I see tons of friction in a range from annoyance to actual hatred. With actions to go with it.

It would seem that the problem isn't the volume of PCs killed, it's the lack of sustained conflict between groups of people leading to a boring, stale game where people have no real reason to be at odds. A handful of nobodies getting popped in the 'rinth each week doesn't change that. There's a palpable stagnation in the game and lack of everyday friction between people.

Maybe you're just in the wrong place to be seeing anything interesting happening.

[BadSkeelz]

Most PVP (Whether antagonism is outright conflict) is petty kankshit that's supremely irritating to those of us who aren't trying to play Total Drama Allanak. So I can see both Talia and Fergie being true: there is PVP happening, it's just not very good PVP.

Edit: Unfortunately, the "Good" idea of PVP, of noble houses and city states duking it out, isn't particularly fun to play either (throw poison.dagger amos east). Which is why I prefer PVE.

[James de Monet]

One could probably make a case that war is just people's petty personal dramas writ large for the international stage.

The corollary, then, would be that no matter how valid, interpersonal strife may always seem petty and dumb, because of the small scope of it.




The final takeaway could be: a war, a feud, a grudge, just start something!

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Most PVP (Whether antagonism is outright conflict) is petty kankshit that's supremely irritating to those of us who aren't trying to play Total Drama Allanak.

Yeah, I got roped into Total Drama Allanak this year and wasn't exactly enjoying it. Just waiting for it to end, basically, so I could have sane interaction with people again.