Aviation: The Discovery of Flight

[AdamBlue]

Yeah, the subject sounds like a movie on the history of flying.

Why is it that there is a distinct lack of people attempting any measure of flight in the game using various tools at their disposal? I could easily see some attempts at hang-gliders, parachutes, or some Whirian's finding ways to propel normal blokes through the skies.

Hang-Gliders would be incredibly awesome for various assassination attempts, travel, ect.
Parachutes would be pretty goddamn incredible for the anti-hole movement. A chute-pack that automatically deploys when falling, which slows your descent to non-lethal levels and gives you more time and chance to grab onto walls and such. Has to be re-packed after every use, and has a small chance for failure on every use, which makes them good for emergencies or risky operations.

Don't tell me that you don't want to see a group of the Arm taking off from a massive tower with specialized two-person gliders, and have one of them controlling the leather and silk stretched contraption, before the bottom rung fellow unclips themselves and deploys a parachute down while the glider turns and makes their way home? Incredibly fast travel with little risk besides the chance of a parachute failure. Glider crashes, scouting, daredevils, sweet new adventuring, various monsters in the sky to try and eat those bloody gliders and parachuters.

I know this all sounds a bit whimsical, and it probably is. I'm probably just rambling at this point.


tl;dr: Bruh there are tons of really cool low-tech ways to fly around places, and with all the sky rooms there are, they should be taken advantage of.

Edit: ALSO, YO, THE SANDSTORMS WOULD BE FUCKING AWESOME TO SEE PEOPLE FLY AROUND IN, THAT SHIT WOULD BE WHACKY AS HELL AND PRETTY AMAZING.

[BadSkeelz]

Because those asshole magickers already fly and just taint and ruin it for the rest of us.

If the Highlord intended man to fly he wouldn't have let filthy magickers do it.

[Talia]

Reminder: There is no "science" in Zalanthas.

[Jeshin OR]

There are constantly flying attempts by mundanes. It's called the byn. Thus the march of Zalanthan "science" continues, right over the edge.

EDIT - In true Byn fashion the progression of "science" is to send more breeds to do it until one of them wants to live hard enough they succeed.

[AdamBlue]

Just sayin', man. Somebody's gotta realize that if you drop a feather, it'll fall in a certain way, and then think, 'why is it that the feather falls all weird and shit when rocks don't sway to the side? what if I have a ton of feathers and do this? why does sometimes cloth act like feathers? hey, you guys notice when I floof a blanket it falls kinda slowly?'

[RogueGunslinger]

Reminder: There is no "science" in Zalanthas.

What? No scientific method, sure, but no science?

[Talia]

What? No scientific method, sure, but no science?

Zalanthan "science" is science in the same kind of way that ancient Greek philosophy was science. It's a bit of observation sprinkled liberally with wild speculation, hostility to new ideas, outright superstition, rigid beliefs and routines, and categorization and taxonomy based on pure imagination. It's the antithesis of modern science.

There are practical things that individuals or organizations might engage in which would sort of fall in the "science" category, such as breeding animals or slaves. But they don't do it by "science," they do it in a particular way that has been handed down and handed down through generations before them. In general it's better not even to call this stuff "science."

This is the official staff position on science in Zalanthas. We've discussed staff-side and at some point will have a document out about it. Modern science, its methods and concepts, simply do not fit the world of Zalanthas.

[BadSkeelz]

Greeks had the knowledge and principle technology that them developing a functional steam-engine wasn't too far fetched. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile

However, when you have tons and tons of cheap slave labor, it seems there was little incentive to develop labor-saving technology.

I think Zalanthas suffers from a similar problem. Why invest time and money and effort in developing technology when you can just get some freak to wiggle his fingers and do it?

[Delirium]

I could have seen a northern house investing serious time and money into various experiments, but not an Allanaki House, unless they thought the payoff would be worth it.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of being able to tame flying beasts. I don't like the idea of flying "technology" in Zalanthas.

Really, I just came here to make the Byn joke about falling off the Shield Wall, but someone beat me to it...so meh.

[Mordiggian]

It's a race to the bottom, man.

[LauraMars]

I could have seen a northern house investing serious time and money into various experiments,

Even this didn't fit the theme of the game well, imo.  People in Tuluk talking about experiments, hypotheses, and the scientific method was extremely jarring.  Not sure what else they would have done since the House in question was basically set up for that, but it felt a bit off to say the least.  People on Zalanthas have discovered things that might look scientific to our 21st century eyes (breeding humans and animals for specific traits, for instance) but I think it's safe to say that the methods used look nothing like ours.  If you're going to call "the discovery of new stuff" something, why call it science?  Call it natural philosophy, alchemy, the modern disciplines, or some similarly fantastic name.

Besides, it's much more fun to watch a nobleman throw an elf off a balcony covered in feathers to see if he'll fly than it is to watch someone painstakingly prove a hypotheses about air currents via incremental testing in game.

[Asanadas]

With the gnomes genocided (Dark Sun lore), there's no real hope for fantasy aviation. 

[whitt]

With the gnomes genocided (Dark Sun lore), there's no real hope for fantasy aviation. 

Catapults not close enough?

That's not flying!  It's falling with style.

[Delirium]

I could have seen a northern house investing serious time and money into various experiments,

Even this didn't fit the theme of the game well, imo.  People in Tuluk talking about experiments, hypotheses, and the scientific method was extremely jarring.  Not sure what else they would have done since the House in question was basically set up for that, but it felt a bit off to say the least.  People on Zalanthas have discovered things that might look scientific to our 21st century eyes (breeding humans and animals for specific traits, for instance) but I think it's safe to say that the methods used look nothing like ours.  If you're going to call "the discovery of new stuff" something, why call it science?  Call it natural philosophy, alchemy, the modern disciplines, or some similarly fantastic name.

Besides, it's much more fun to watch a nobleman throw an elf off a balcony covered in feathers to see if he'll fly than it is to watch someone painstakingly prove a hypotheses about air currents via incremental testing in game.

Well, yeah. We're in agreement. I was just much lazier about explaining my viewpoint.

[wizturbo]

Why is it that there is a distinct lack of people attempting any measure of flight in the game using various tools at their disposal? I could easily see some attempts at hang-gliders, parachutes, or some Whirian's finding ways to propel normal blokes through the skies.

I'd just like to say, I've attempted this on a character, and it was hilariously fun.  It definitely didn't involve any "science" though.

[Armaddict]

What? No scientific method, sure, but no science?

Zalanthan "science" is science in the same kind of way that ancient Greek philosophy was science. It's a bit of observation sprinkled liberally with wild speculation, hostility to new ideas, outright superstition, rigid beliefs and routines, and categorization and taxonomy based on pure imagination. It's the antithesis of modern science.

There are practical things that individuals or organizations might engage in which would sort of fall in the "science" category, such as breeding animals or slaves. But they don't do it by "science," they do it in a particular way that has been handed down and handed down through generations before them. In general it's better not even to call this stuff "science."

This is the official staff position on science in Zalanthas. We've discussed staff-side and at some point will have a document out about it. Modern science, its methods and concepts, simply do not fit the world of Zalanthas.

Is this why even simple war machines I've proposed were turned down, when I was playing Tors?  Specifically...the manned barricades?  Or was that a code issue?  I never got a straight reply, just 'no'.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm trying to imagine a world that functions without science and it just isn't jiving with my brain. Bad science is still science. Experimentation, deduction, hypothesis, conclusions... These things have been around for as long as mankind has been around, even if we didn't have names for them. Every dude who got some crotch-rot is gonna try different shit out until they find something that cures it. Science. Units of measurement, taxonomy, general classification and naming... All things that are in the world right now. All Science.

I don't think I'll be able to buy that Zalanthas doesn't have science.

[Armaddict]

I'm trying to imagine a world that functions without science and it just isn't jiving with my brain. Bad science is still science. Experimentation, deduction, hypothesis, conclusions... These things have been around for as long as mankind has been around, even if we didn't have names for them. Every dude who got some crotch-rot is gonna try different shit out until they find something that cures it. Science. Units of measurement, taxonomy, general classification and naming... All things that are in the world right now. All Science.

I don't think I'll be able to buy that Zalanthas doesn't have science.

My take on what she said is basically an explanation for why science will not -advance-.  I.e. Don't try to bring in new techno gadgets because zalanthans do not advance such things.

It's not a -great- fix, but it's a way to keep people from trying to make...I don't know, flying machines or something, just because we have that here.


EDIT;  That came across snarky, OP, I intended no snark.  I was trying to be clever.

[slipshod]

I remember long ago some sort of flying contraption being built by the Templarate on top of the water temple on Meleth's Circle.  It was like a wooden gyrocopter.  I think they flew it to Tuluk for some sort of attack.  This was long ago.

[Talia]

Is this why even simple war machines I've proposed were turned down, when I was playing Tors?  Specifically...the manned barricades?  Or was that a code issue?  I never got a straight reply, just 'no'.

That would have been before I came on staff, but no, I doubt it's because of the lack of science or technology if it was just manned barricades. Probably a code issue, and/or a "the thing I want built is going to require staff to animate it 100%" issue. (Not saying that's what you were asking for, but a lot of times players want things that would require staff to animate the thing itself and the response to it on both sides.)

My take on what she said is basically an explanation for why science will not -advance-.  I.e. Don't try to bring in new techno gadgets because zalanthans do not advance such things.

It's not a -great- fix, but it's a way to keep people from trying to make...I don't know, flying machines or something, just because we have that here.

Most of the issue with players attempting to do science in game comes from the fact that they are working backward from real-world, modern knowledge, rather than starting from the actual knowledge and skill level that a Zalanthan would possess. So the process starts with "I am going to build a jet plane" or "I am going to build a telescope" or "I am going to find an antibiotic to cure the plague" or any other version of "I am going to replicate this modern thing." Players are duplicating modern science in game (or attempting to do so) and that's what we don't want to see. I've never seen any player start from anything like "a philosophic treatise on the humors of the humanoid body," or any other intellectual location near the beginning of science. It's all jumping straight to modernism instead.

[Beethoven]

I was going to write a treatise like that once but I got distracted. I get distracted a lot.

[CodeMaster]

Most of the issue with players attempting to do science in game comes from the fact that they are working backward from real-world, modern knowledge, rather than starting from the actual knowledge and skill level that a Zalanthan would possess. So the process starts with "I am going to build a jet plane" or "I am going to build a telescope" or "I am going to find an antibiotic to cure the plague" or any other version of "I am going to replicate this modern thing." Players are duplicating modern science in game (or attempting to do so) and that's what we don't want to see. I've never seen any player start from anything like "a philosophic treatise on the humors of the humanoid body," or any other intellectual location near the beginning of science. It's all jumping straight to modernism instead.

Me too Beethoven.  All I have is an anecdote.

If you look at the field of geometry, it's not hard to see from its name where it comes from.  "Geo" means earth: so early geometry was about measuring agricultural plots, or making speculative approximations about the distances between cities, and stuff like that.  It was only latently that people discovered geometry to be its own, axiomatic mathematical discipline.

No commoner on Zalanthas I know of is pursuing even these extremely fundamental questions.   Things like accurately and repeatably measuring the distances between two cities, or how the dimensions of a hide bucket relate to the volume of water it can contain, or what distinguishes animals that lay eggs from ones that don't.  I could see discoveries like these being feasible, but they would die with the PC who made them -- with the exception of the nobility.  I mean, I even find the apparent knowledge of eclipses to be anachronistic, but that one can slide because eclipses are cool.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh, I think it's fair to say that some of these basic queries have been established as facts, such as distance, and the like. We're way past that point. The thing is, we're not really to the point of Di Vinci's work, yet, though I'd surmise we're only about ... a thousand years or so back.

In 1185, or the 12th Century AD, the first instance of a vertical (maybe) windmill  was reported in Europe, but in the 1st Century AD, a Greek devised a horizontal windmill, and they were in fairly common use by the 8th Century, or 700-800 AD. Being that this is currently probably the most impressive piece of actual machinery on Zalanthas, it's probably fair to say that we're at a level of technology mildly greater than that first windmill but less than the windmills of the 8th Century. So, let's surmise that Zalanthas possesses a current level of technology in the 4th-5th Century range.

By contrast, Leonardo Di Vinci, a commonly cited ancient inventor who drew up some semi-possible flying contraptions, died in 1519, or, the 16th Century. So we're over 1000 years away from devising flying machines, and that's ignoring the fact that magick, a force that eradicates some of the reasons technology advances, exists in Zalanthas.

[RogueGunslinger]

If anything the addition of magic would add enough new realms of discovery and application that the few discoveries we didn't have to make because of them would be tiny in comparison.

The truth is Zalanthas is varied and strange and not wholly realized in every aspect. Making comparisons to earth never really hold up.

To come back on topic the best flying contraption I could imagine for Zalanthas is a krathi/whiran hot-air balloon team, but nothing mechanical like a plane or helicopter.

[AdamBlue]

If anything the addition of magic would add enough new realms of discovery and application that the few discoveries we didn't have to make because of them would be tiny in comparison.

The truth is Zalanthas is varied and strange and not wholly realized in every aspect. Making comparisons to earth never really hold up.

To come back on topic the best flying contraption I could imagine for Zalanthas is a krathi/whiran hot-air balloon team, but nothing mechanical like a plane or helicopter.

Yeah, hot air balloons seemed more like they'd make sense, actually. And they would be probably easier to code due to the fact it would be very difficult to crash one like a plane. It's simple. Up and down, and then you let wind take you. This would make the direction wind blows super fucking important.

[CodeMaster]

Oh, I think it's fair to say that some of these basic queries have been established as facts, such as distance, and the like. We're way past that point. The thing is, we're not really to the point of Di Vinci's work, yet, though I'd surmise we're only about ... a thousand years or so back.

Da Vinci was famously literate and so might not be the best reference point.  (I feel so nerdy beating this dead fantasy horse but I'm going to keep writing...)

So I agree a templar leading an army would have these distances, and might even have logistic formulas for relating the size of an army to the amount of distance it can cover in a day.  And sure, leaders of cities and villages evidently have access to the technological (or magickal) know-how to build windmills.  But what these upper classes know is in their (concealed) documentation and is probably influenced by access to ancient libraries and magick.

I guess what I want to argue is that "what a mundane commoner knows" should be the baseline in these discussions when we're talking about inventing things.

Think about this: maybe you've been hiking in extremely varied terrain, looked at your map and seen "5 miles", and then realized how completely uninformative that number actually is to you.  It's a meaningless abstraction that can't even be used to gauge how long the journey will take.

Likewise, to your average Zalanthan commoner, "237 miles" would mean nothing to them; "2 days of travel by inix" is what people would tell each other and know.

Zalanthan commoners just don't have any kind of foothold into the abstract thinking required to invent a lot of these things that seem self-evident to us in the 21st century.

[Inks]

What is a better question is why are firepots npc only?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh, I think it's fair to say that some of these basic queries have been established as facts, such as distance, and the like. We're way past that point. The thing is, we're not really to the point of Di Vinci's work, yet, though I'd surmise we're only about ... a thousand years or so back.

Da Vinci was famously literate and so might not be the best reference point.  (I feel so nerdy beating this dead fantasy horse but I'm going to keep writing...)

So I agree a templar leading an army would have these distances, and might even have logistic formulas for relating the size of an army to the amount of distance it can cover in a day.  And sure, leaders of cities and villages evidently have access to the technological (or magickal) know-how to build windmills.  But what these upper classes know is in their (concealed) documentation and is probably influenced by access to ancient libraries and magick.

I guess what I want to argue is that "what a mundane commoner knows" should be the baseline in these discussions when we're talking about inventing things.

Think about this: maybe you've been hiking in extremely varied terrain, looked at your map and seen "5 miles", and then realized how completely uninformative that number actually is to you.  It's a meaningless abstraction that can't even be used to gauge how long the journey will take.

Likewise, to your average Zalanthan commoner, "237 miles" would mean nothing to them; "2 days of travel by inix" is what people would tell each other and know.

Zalanthan commoners just don't have any kind of foothold into the abstract thinking required to invent a lot of these things that seem self-evident to us in the 21st century.

I agree that maybe, maybe, the average commoner who spends their entire life in the city might not understand distance well, but any hunter would. Conversely, any farming foreman would understand the average time it takes a well-bodied adult human to pick a row of ... wheat. So, these common folk, without books, could figure out things like how long it would take a group of people to travel to Luir's, given the average amount of raptor attacks, gith ambushes, feed and water breaks, etc, that they have personally experienced. The farmer could figure out how long it would take to clear a field, and, how many people he needs to get the job down in X number of hours.

They aren't cavemen. And even 'two days by inix' is far from an abstract concept, given that inix will, to those who are experienced riding them, generally stop the same number of times, cover the same terrain in the same amount of time(ish), etc.

I agree that knowledge isn't wide spread, and that people don't know a ton about stuff outside their experience or limited education, but in a mundane's field of experience, I have no issue thinking that they know details consistent with 4-6th Century RL earth knowledge.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Late to the game, but yeah - this is definitely a dwarf focus, not a thing for the game.

Don't tell me that you don't want to see a group of the Arm taking off from a massive tower with specialized two-person gliders, ...

I don't. It's a hang glider. If you jump off of Teks Tower, you'd have a range of like... a mile? What are you attacking? The ranch out by the West Gate?

All else aside, I think the biggest hinderance to scientific progress is the fact that less than 1% of the population can actually read and write. There's no way, really, to record and share ideas. You could draw it out on paper, but few people (apart from Master Crafters) are going to risk carrying paper around, since the cost of looking like you know how to read is death.

I agree that the windmills are probably the most advanced bits of machinery evident in Zalanthas. And, surprise-surprise, they're in Red Storm. >.>

[Desertman]

Talia, you may not give me flying machines. That is your decision, but you should know:

[CodeMaster]

I agree that maybe, maybe, the average commoner who spends their entire life in the city might not understand distance well, but any hunter would. Conversely, any farming foreman would understand the average time it takes a well-bodied adult human to pick a row of ... wheat. So, these common folk, without books, could figure out things like how long it would take a group of people to travel to Luir's, given the average amount of raptor attacks, gith ambushes, feed and water breaks, etc, that they have personally experienced. The farmer could figure out how long it would take to clear a field, and, how many people he needs to get the job down in X number of hours.

I wikid around real quick to be a jerk and it's worth mentioning that "averages" (and decimal fractions) as we know them were not understood during the period you mention.  Any Zalanthan using the term would probably be using it in the informal "speculative intuitive guesstimate" sense that might be accurate for small questions but no better than dead reckoning for larger questions.

They aren't cavemen. And even 'two days by inix' is far from an abstract concept, given that inix will, to those who are experienced riding them, generally stop the same number of times, cover the same terrain in the same amount of time(ish), etc.

I meant to say that "two days by inix" is something Zalanthans would grasp, preferentially to distance, and that it's not an abstract concept in the same sense that distance is.

I agree that knowledge isn't wide spread, and that people don't know a ton about stuff outside their experience or limited education, but in a mundane's field of experience, I have no issue thinking that they know details consistent with 4-6th Century RL earth knowledge.

I have no idea about 4-6th century RL knowledge in general (which I'm sure depends on which country you lived in at the time) so maybe we are agreeing.  I'm out of my depth, and you seem to know more history than I do.

But it's a fun exercise to think very carefully about what a character might know in this world, because it really makes me realize how much we benefit from the centuries of increasingly abstract human thinking that precede us.

[Talia]

Talia, you may not give me flying machines. That is your decision, but you should know:

I'm not sure why Mal seems to be standing in the doorway of the Tardis there, but I hope you know I would never even try, Dman.

But it's a fun exercise to think very carefully about what a character might know in this world, because it really makes me realize how much we benefit from the centuries of increasingly abstract human thinking that precede us.

Exactly!

I agree that knowledge isn't wide spread, and that people don't know a ton about stuff outside their experience or limited education, but in a mundane's field of experience, I have no issue thinking that they know details consistent with 4-6th Century RL earth knowledge.

I don't have an issue with this either, but I think that's a really far cry from calling it "science." I think we're agreeing here. A farmer knows how much seed it's going to take to plant the field (probably equivalent to everything she managed to save up from the last shitty harvest), but that's different from R&D on seed development and patenting your crops.

Another problem in general with Zalanthan technology is that there's no metal. So many of the things that we've invented and rely on on a daily basis are based on metal. I just can't wrap my brain around technological and industrial development without metal. Metal is more pliable, more durable, more conductive, more resistant to damage, and lighter (for its properties) than any of the other materials that Zalanthas has to work with. I suppose a flying machine could theoretically be built out of light-weight wood and cloth, but would it survive in Zalanthan weather? (I don't think it would. Maybe I'm wrong.) I mean, we're already stretching it with obsidian swords.

On a personal note, would I love it if Armageddon was more of a low-fantasy, weird-tech, sci-fi steampunk type environment? Yes, I would. But this game isn't about my personal preferences, it's about staying true to the vision of the world as it is.

[Patuk]

Who exactly would the Zalanthan aviators and scientists even be? It scarce has formal education, let alone actual science. The amount of people who could feasibly even be scientifically interested at all wouldn't even be a thousand, and those generally have a lot of other things to do as well.

[Nyr]

Who exactly would the Zalanthan aviators and scientists even be? It scarce has formal education, let alone actual science. The amount of people who could feasibly even be scientifically interested at all wouldn't even be a thousand, and those generally have a lot of other things to do as well.

Space vestrics, obviously.  11 karma has to go somewhere.

[Saellyn]

I call BS Talia. Obsidian swords in this game are so much more durable than titanium-steel. Just another attempt by Staff to mislead and stifle us.

Go to your dreams, Dman! Build the flying aeroplane!

[ibusoe]

I'm trying to imagine a world that functions without science and it just isn't jiving with my brain. Bad science is still science. Experimentation, deduction, hypothesis, conclusions... These things have been around for as long as mankind has been around, even if we didn't have names for them. Every dude who got some crotch-rot is gonna try different shit out until they find something that cures it. Science. Units of measurement, taxonomy, general classification and naming... All things that are in the world right now. All Science.

I don't think I'll be able to buy that Zalanthas doesn't have science.

Nor should you have too.  Let's say that you had a scientific question.  The established people to ask would depend on your class.  Lower class people would ask a Templar.  Upper class people would ask a logistician (associated with accounting or law) or a mage or a really old person, depending upon whom they thought would have a good answer.

Worth noting is that none of these professions emphasize testing out their theories before applying them, nor do they emphasize safety testing. 

Part of the nature of the apocalypse is that people won't typically invest in pure research due to a preference to solve problems not with knowledge, but with direct and brutal violence.  Progress, sustainable growth and hope for the future are incompatible with the game theme.

[Revenant]

Since flashpowder has been retconned you can no longer rocket jump, and that is why there's no non-magickal flight.

[original]

Just sayin', man. Somebody's gotta realize that if you drop a feather, it'll fall in a certain way, and then think, 'why is it that the feather falls all weird and shit when rocks don't sway to the side? what if I have a ton of feathers and do this? why does sometimes cloth act like feathers? hey, you guys notice when I floof a blanket it falls kinda slowly?'
[/quote
Very smart, except you're from a world without magic.

Im arm, when a feather falls a certain way, it is because Whira likes to play with feathers. If I want to fly, I ask Whira to make me fly. Either Whira ignores me, and I pout, or I fly... then a Templar shoots me down for my magic XD

[lostinspace]

I mean, dark sun did have cliff gliders, which were essentially dudes who killed big flying things, preserved the spine/wings/ribs. And then crawled into the ribs and controlled the wings with a couple of poles. I think the idea was rigor mortis kept the wings fully extended, and the guy just tilted them to change direction when gliding.

[Asche]

In a world where healing magic exists, we'd never have created medicine. The mere presence of an exploitable supernatural in any universe severely diminishes scientific progress within that universe. Why would anyone bother investing the money to develop the telephone when everyone is telepathic? Now, all THAT said. Flight is something we aspire to on a primal level, and its likely a product of a lack of literacy to establish a tradition to work with that we haven't developed a hang glider yet. There are no giants to stand on the shoulders of in this universe, intentionally, so that none may empower themselves to challenge the Highlord.