Sparring Dummy Reform

[RogueGunslinger]

They should be there, every morning and afternoon where training would occur, in every clan that has drills to practice. I see no good reason to drag them off when they are the only way two people can train some skills without a third person.

They should also allow for combat-skill gains to help make up the difference between indie hunters skilling up and a military clans skilling up, or for off-peak players who have nobody around to train with.

Do you have any ideas that can make dummies better?

[Desertman]

I like them how they are.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like them how they are.

You don't even think they should be around for guard training? 

[Desertman]

I like them how they are.

You don't even think they should be around for guard training? 

Not particularly.

They are basically a "heavy bag". Hitting a heavy bag doesn't make you better at fighting. It is there to improve your strength, your power, and your conditioning. Also arguably your technique as it relates to throwing shots with proper form, but one might argue that plays into improving your strength and conditioning more than anything else (since everyone knows using proper form makes you a lot stronger and makes you use a lot less energy, which is one of the main benefits of learning how to do it right).

Now, if you want to argue that they should potentially improve endurance and strength based on how often you use them because "realism", then I would say there is something to stand on there.

I don't think staff will ever do that, and I really don't think they should due to possible and almost probable abuse concerns.

In short....it's a heavy bag.....the only gains you SHOULD get realistically, you never will because of abuse concerns.

[Desertman]

In terms of how often they are "out", I don't care if they leave them out all day every day....so long as they don't benefit coded skills in any real measurable way on any level.

[RogueGunslinger]

 The very fact that you CAN'T train strength, endurance, technique, and form. The fact that you can't drill a sword-strike repeatedly in order to get better at it, means that there is no other method to show progressive gains in a training environment than to spar with another PC, or NPC. That itself is not in any way realistic. Sparring is not the only way to get better at things in real life.

How integral do you think the parts of your training that have nothing to do with another person are in MMA? Conditioning technique, strength, accuracy, endurance. How important would you say those things are to learning the skills you need to be a fighter? Why not represent that through skill gains on dummies?

[Refugee]

I think I have bad luck with clans, but so far, in my experience, it means you're stuck trying to work up your skills alone a lot of the time.  In clans who restrict their recruits' access to outside sparring partners or hunting alone, why make it even less appealing to forgo playing the indie?  Everything we do to make it harder on a clanned combat PC just makes for more independents.  I myself have nothing against that, but there's a lot of discussion on here about the subject.

It's interesting that different clans have the bags out for different amounts of time, too.  Some put them away at mid-morning, some at noon.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm OK with having practice dummies for guard practice in clans where guard practice makes sense.

I think I'd only be OK with better skill gains on practice dummies but only up to "novice" or something.

I'm also OK with them as they are: roleplaying props.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dummies should be replaced with instructors in clan halls. These would be scripted to prevent abuse, but assuming Armageddon's scripting capability is as good as ROM 2.4s, that shouldn't be an issue. Fighting an actual NPC, rather than a bag which probably isn't going to move very often, is a better way to attain actual ability.

[Molten Heart]

If the argument is to keep things even with independents, who risk the danger of losing their character when they go do what they do, I disagree. Clan play is relatively risk free and added bonuses justified by keeping up with the Indies isn't justified.

I think having sparring dummies around for guard practice is fine, if not ideal. Can't guard a ham sandwich? How about a bag of sand? Seems like a perfect practice tool. Overlapping playtimes in clans can be difficult to get trsining time in, Sometimes training has to happen when the prople are around or it never happens. Training dummies should be available all the time.

[Delirium]

Dummies should be replaced with instructors in clan halls. These would be scripted to prevent abuse, but assuming Armageddon's scripting capability is as good as ROM 2.4s, that shouldn't be an issue. Fighting an actual NPC, rather than a bag which probably isn't going to move very often, is a better way to attain actual ability.

I like that idea. Getting to relative 'journeyman' level from training in a compound should be a given, not something to crack down on. I also think there should be obstacle courses that you can train on, which again would only help you reach that mid-level capability, but would get you past that awful newbie stage and provide a great roleplay prop.

Climbing walls, climbing ropes, outdoor maze-like courses for training sneak and hide and tracking, etc.

Further improvement beyond advanced would require specialized training with clan members. That makes total sense and gives off-peakers and underpopulated clans a needed boost.

Unless you really want everyone running outside to train on <redacted> and <redacted>.

[RogueGunslinger]

Dummies should be replaced with instructors in clan halls. These would be scripted to prevent abuse, but assuming Armageddon's scripting capability is as good as ROM 2.4s, that shouldn't be an issue. Fighting an actual NPC, rather than a bag which probably isn't going to move very often, is a better way to attain actual ability.

In that vein they could also come out, give a nicely written lesson over the course of 10 mintues, and then use teach on you.

Tor Academy would be amazing.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of an NPC that comes out and runs you through "drills" at certain times.

You are required to actually "do the drills" by typing in the corresponding commands when commanded etc....

If you do, you get the gains as if the instructor taught you with the "teach" command. If you do not, you do not get the gains so that people won't just sit and AFK the whole thing repeatedly while fapping it to pron on another screen.

[wizturbo]

Dummies should be replaced with instructors in clan halls. These would be scripted to prevent abuse, but assuming Armageddon's scripting capability is as good as ROM 2.4s, that shouldn't be an issue. Fighting an actual NPC, rather than a bag which probably isn't going to move very often, is a better way to attain actual ability.

Really like this idea.  Have a +1.

[Harmless]

I don't think that an NPC instructor is going to help my immersion or skill progress at all. If you have no clanmates to learn from, hire more clanmates. If you have clanmates but aren't learning from them, address it ICly. I don't like the idea of free teaches from an NPC. I prefer having that RP from another player. Making this an NPC activity takes away from one of the only meaningful intra clan RP topics available.

[Clearsighted]

All Allanak clans should have spiced-out rinthi elves (captured and kept in cages until needed), that they keep around for the sole purpose of having their recruits kill as part of their training.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think that an NPC instructor is going to help my immersion or skill progress at all.

Why not? How is an NPC instructor in a city suddenly more immersion-breaking than an NPC combatant in the wild? Why wouldn't it help skill progress?

If you have no clanmates to learn from, hire more clanmates. If you have clanmates but aren't learning from them, address it ICly. I don't like the idea of free teaches from an NPC. I prefer having that RP from another player.

Off-peak players and clan ebb and flow be damned, right? All the while some hunter/crafter/thief type is out there just doing his thing and excelling quickly, while all that training your soldier/merc character is supposed to be doing is completely ineffectual.

Making this an NPC activity takes away from one of the only meaningful intra clan RP topics available.

How is it taking anything away? It's not like suddenly people are going to stop training with each other, that could still be the far superior method of training. Only there might actually be someone around on "desert survival training" day to train you how to survive in the desert. Or someone around on bodyguard training day to help you train bodyguarding. That would be nicer than the mostly meaningless sparring that usually happens.

[BadSkeelz]

All Allanak clans should have spiced-out rinthi elves (captured and kept in cages until needed), that they keep around for the sole purpose of having their recruits kill as part of their training.

Arm has the arena games for that. (Though we also chased a newbie out to the desert and used him for tracking and archery training.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There is literally no reason under the sun for there not to be NPC instructors that don't immersion. I'm on my phone now, but when I get to my computer, I'll outline a basic script for what I'd expect from a NPC instructor. And yes, it would account only for training alone. The scripting would simply not allow two PCS to be in the same room, learning from it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, I decided not to work up this example. It would take too long, and I'm not in the mood to spend a bunch of time doing this at the moment. Regardless, scripting in ROM 2.4 could handle this, so I suspect Armageddon's scripting system could as well.

[Chettaman]

I don't think it was an intentional thing to do, but scheduling guard training for the afternoon and then having the dummy used for said training show up in the morning was a mistake.
This can easily be fixed by a bunch of people saying, ''eff the schedule! We do what we want!'' and then guard train during the morning (or whatever specialized training) and ''normal'' train during the evenings.

An NPC instructor would be cool. ... but to be honest, I'd prefer there weren't one. It could be like an animal that spawns and when you /actually/ kill it - it emotes limping out of the training hall or something and you have to wait for another to spawn. Still. I don't want one.

If you guys want cool ways to train your skills that are most likely not going to be trained you should become more creative and ask your leadership to do the same. Because you may not of realized, but training could mean more than combat. More than coded gains.

SCENARIOS! : you're a bynner - it's dawn and you're ready to beat your comrades to death! But sarge badass has a better idea... He gathers you idiots together and you run. You run to the exit of the city and you run around the city one whole time. You might even do it again. You might even sing while doing it. But no doubt you come in through the other gate and now you and your tired idiot buddies are gonna run back to the compound finally. No run skill?
: it's noon and it's time for desert survival training! This is where you learn to survive in the desert and sarge badass is the man with the plan. He gathers you idiots together and you walk. You walk into the desert with nothing but a tent, your clothes and armor and weapons. You don't know where you're going because sarge badass is going to get you lost on purpose. And then when you get to wherever the eff he wants he's going to vote/choose one of you idiots to get everyone back safely or maybe he'll alternate idiots during the event. At any rate you're in the desert and you're learning to survive.  --- let's say you did go out with mounts (like smart people) sarge badass shows you the known routes and explains each in detail. He brings you to a specific location so that you can learn and experience the place for later missions. He also belittles you a bunch. Who can't make up a reason to practice skills in the desert?
: It's noon again and sarge badass has a good idea for weapons training. You're all going to practice whatever cool combat move he tells you to do and you're going to do it until you're tired of it because you've mastered the burning dragon dance, can do it forward and backwards, and again you're really damn tired of it. Then he'll teach you idiots something about the slashing and/or duel-wield or two handed skill. You might even drill it once or twice by actually doing combat or something.
: Good morning, new boots! Sarge badass is kicking people's bunks and knocking shit all about because some idiot left some trash on the ground outside the barracks. ... at least he said someone did. Anyway he makes you low-crawl to the yard to put you through some excersize drills and then send you all back to training as usual after some belittling.
: Your sarge badass hangs up a rope out in front of the gaj. He, of course gets permission to do so because he's a rule follower, expert, professional and badass. His instructions are; if you want to go inside the gaj, you've got to climb that rope up and down one at a time. You can't do it - go back to the barracks and be mad you can't make your goals a reality and blame yourself. Giants need not do this... lessons learned after having to pay for broken balconies. You're not even on duty!? Can he really ask you to train?! ... well. He hung two ropes. Now you can race and make it a game. Now do what the eff he says and have fun.

In the event that there is no sarge badass present: Get permission from him before hand or wish up or whatever to able to do such training while he's not around. You know... vote for a leader of training that day. Take turns, pick the same person. Just make it happen. Leadership is important.

[Riev]

I would be all for a sort of an "auto-teach" NPC that runs through drills on certain days, rather than setting up sparring dummies all willy nilly. Since the teach command is based on the skill of the teacher, you could make the Tor trainer be master slashing, but the Salarr only has Jman, and you won't likely advance much past that. But in the same vein, a Salarr trainer may be a master at riding whereas a Tor trainer is unlikely to give many shits.

Even if that coding isn't there, I'd advocate for sparring dummies to be put out EVERY morning until High Sun. Sometimes, you only have a couple people in your clan and it'd be nice to do a guarding drill or something once in a while.

[Synthesis]

I don't think I've ever received noticeable skillgain from the teach command.

Anyway, this thread isn't really about dummies.

Guard and rescue are easy to train with 3 PCs.  You just have to sit down and say, "Hey, every time we get three PCs together, we're gonna run guard/rescue drills until everyone gets some fails, then we'll do whatever the fuck we're supposed to be doing."  (Since you kind of have to spar during this, you MIGHT AS WELL start your sparring day by doing Gith-Byn-Merchant, folks, otherwise you're wasting training potential.)  Yes, the assassin/outdoorsmen and the burglar/master tailors may bitch about having to do something where they don't have the necessary skill at all, but fuck them...they're sparring during it, so they can deal.

Combat skills have already been discussed.  After a point, they go up painfully slowly if you don't get yourself in the proper circumstances.  That being said, my record for getting to (journeyman) in my primary weapon and in my "style" skill is 3 days 10 hours, with average human wisdom...and basically nobody is suggesting that a dummy should get you beyond (journeyman).  You really ought to be able to do it in a reasonable time via regular sparring, unless your "days played" stat is heavily padded by mudsex and AFKing.

[Riev]

Having dummies out every day, instead of "only on Huegal and Ocandra" or some of the weird ass days, would make it easier in those clans where you might ONLY have a couple people around at most given times. Perhaps with consolidation this isn't as necessary but its still a problem.


The idea of a "trainer" NPC was for those people in a clan that maybe don't have consistent playtimes, or have a hard time finding other people. Nothing is worse than joining Salarr on all these promises that you're really a great hunter and learn well, but after a year of being there you've shown no real improvement. Though admittedly, the trouble would be making it so that a year in a GMH wouldn't NECESSARILY be equivalent to a year as a Bynner.

[Chettaman]

+1 to sparring dummies being present every day.

[Lizzie]

There is literally no reason under the sun for there not to be NPC instructors that don't immersion. I'm on my phone now, but when I get to my computer, I'll outline a basic script for what I'd expect from a NPC instructor. And yes, it would account only for training alone. The scripting would simply not allow two PCS to be in the same room, learning from it.

Here's a reason (rising to your challenging claim that there is literally no reason):

If I want my clan-mate to fail at rising in skill, all I'd need to do is show up and hide; and the scripting would cease to function. And if you allow for hiding, then I could just show up and sit down, and claim I pulled a tendon in the last sparring session and have to sit out but I'll watch (and then, watch him have to solo-emote with no coded benefits at all).

[RogueGunslinger]

First of all, lol at that scenario ever actually happening. Because it wouldn't. Because everyone who goes to training likely wants their skills to go up.

Secondly, If it did then your character would be subject to punishment for failing to follow schedule or keep healthy enough to train. More likely it would be taken as an attempt to avoid training, and the character would suffer enough repercussions that I'd find it more amusing than annoying.

Thirdly, and most importantly, that isn't a reason for not implementing the idea. Not even remotely. It's just a scenario where the idea wouldn't help.

[Lizzie]

First of all, lol at that scenario ever actually happening. Because it wouldn't. Because everyone who goes to training likely wants their skills to go up.

Secondly, If it did then your character would be subject to punishment for failing to follow schedule or keep healthy enough to train. More likely it would be taken as an attempt to avoid training, and the character would suffer enough repercussions that I'd find it more amusing than annoying.

Thirdly, and most importantly, that isn't a reason for not implementing the idea. Not even remotely. It's just a scenario where the idea wouldn't help.

I was thinking more on the order of clans where sparring isn't required on a strict schedule, OR where it's only required for recruits and "graduates" are encouraged to spar, but aren't required. Any combat character who already has skills, who can't gain anything from sparring against a new, unseasoned PC, who doesn't WANT that unseasoned PC to succeed, would be able to make use of this kind of code to their advantage by preventing the script from running just by being there.

They wouldn't even have to kill anyone - the newer, unseasoned person would simply have no way to improve during those times when the script runs and the higher skilled person is present.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There are very, very few PCS who will manage to get to the point that they can not gain something from sparring with another PC, even if the chances to gain something slow down to a crawl, and even if they have to change the way they spar.

[Synthesis]

There are very, very few PCS who will manage to get to the point that they can not gain something from sparring with another PC, even if the chances to gain something slow down to a crawl, and even if they have to change the way they spar.

What? No.

Weapon skill + base offense outpaces defense to the tune of 99.9% of the time LONG before weapon mastery.  You might "gain something" if you switch to a weapon that you don't care about, and will never actually use, just to watch it bump from novice to apprentice, so you're "technically" correct, I suppose.  But otherwise--no.  Sparring ceases to be useful for weapon and style skills before you even hit (advanced), for most people.  If you're in an elf clan, you can probably push it a little farther, but not by much.  Also, you can just plain -forget- about ever getting two-handed beyond (journeyman) if all you're doing is sparring.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I didn't say that the results would be crystal clear, or that progress wouldn't crawl along. I didn't say that it would help everyone. And maybe I exaggerated with the bit about 'very, very few'. And yes, you're not going to master a lot of stuff while sparring. But let's be honest, between you and I; there's probably quite a few fighters who aren't exactly doing everything they could, because it's either too slow, or they don't understand it all, or it takes too much time away from RPing. I know I tend to be lazy along this line, because I spend a lot of time RPing rather than maxing.

You hit on one key thing plenty of people could work on in your very first sentence. And you and I both know how.

And to trump all of this, if they are OOCly choosing not to spar someone because they won't gain anything, then it's probable that whoever they are not sparring would gain something, so they should be sparring anyway, if it's their IC job to do so.

[Synthesis]

I didn't say that the results would be crystal clear, or that progress wouldn't crawl along. I didn't say that it would help everyone. And maybe I exaggerated with the bit about 'very, very few'. But let's be honest, between you and I; there's probably quite a few fighters who aren't exactly doing everything they could, because it's either too slow, or they don't understand it all, or it takes too much time away from RPing. I know I tend to be lazy along this line, because I spend a lot of time RPing rather than maxing.

You hit on one key thing plenty of people could work on in your very first sentence. And you and I both know how.

And to trump all of this, if they are OOCly choosing not to spar someone because they won't gain anything, then it's probable that whoever they are not sparring would gain something, so they should be sparring anyway, if it's their IC job to do so.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, because I've never gone down the "do weird shit in sparring" route.  Anyway, it's entirely possible for 2 people to spar and to learn nothing.  It happens all the damn time, I imagine, otherwise there wouldn't be any sparring plateau at all.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There is literally no reason under the sun for there not to be NPC instructors that don't immersion. I'm on my phone now, but when I get to my computer, I'll outline a basic script for what I'd expect from a NPC instructor. And yes, it would account only for training alone. The scripting would simply not allow two PCS to be in the same room, learning from it.

Here's a reason (rising to your challenging claim that there is literally no reason):

If I want my clan-mate to fail at rising in skill, all I'd need to do is show up and hide; and the scripting would cease to function. And if you allow for hiding, then I could just show up and sit down, and claim I pulled a tendon in the last sparring session and have to sit out but I'll watch (and then, watch him have to solo-emote with no coded benefits at all).

Geez. Hyperbole much, girl? I have never once run into a situation like this, but I suppose it's possible. But guess what? I could account for even that, I think.

It's been a while since I've messed with the old ROM 2.4 scripting, so I might be wrong (I could even be thinking about Circle's scripting), but I'm pretty sure I could have him give you invis, weightless, unique objects as counters, reference each person carrying each individual unique counter, put timers on people as he emotes or says something, take your counter if the timer expires without you providing the correct response (which by the way, could be modified to include phrases, words, commands, etc), and a host of other things.

If I'm scripting him to use actual combat by way of teaching, as opposed to using the teach command, I could set hp thresholds for both you and him, cast wizinvis calm on targets/room with custom messages to explain why you are no longer fighting, script him to intercept any command you type, null it, and give custom responses to each one to explain the unusual state. I can even give you choices to do something; for instance, if he calmed you, and you still wanted to fight, I could script him to offer you the choice to do so through timers and echoes. Shit, I can script him to kick you out of the clan and show you the door, too.

This all assumes Armageddon has a custom scripting language as robust as this. I'm assuming it's fairly robust because of the various things I've seen scripted, but I'm also assuming NPCs are not often scripted well because of how the Staff emphasizes PC on PC interaction. I, however, have always been a huge proponent of fully scripting everything, so of course this is my answer to such a problem.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I didn't say that the results would be crystal clear, or that progress wouldn't crawl along. I didn't say that it would help everyone. And maybe I exaggerated with the bit about 'very, very few'. But let's be honest, between you and I; there's probably quite a few fighters who aren't exactly doing everything they could, because it's either too slow, or they don't understand it all, or it takes too much time away from RPing. I know I tend to be lazy along this line, because I spend a lot of time RPing rather than maxing.

You hit on one key thing plenty of people could work on in your very first sentence. And you and I both know how.

And to trump all of this, if they are OOCly choosing not to spar someone because they won't gain anything, then it's probable that whoever they are not sparring would gain something, so they should be sparring anyway, if it's their IC job to do so.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, because I've never gone down the "do weird shit in sparring" route.  Anyway, it's entirely possible for 2 people to spar and to learn nothing.  It happens all the damn time, I imagine, otherwise there wouldn't be any sparring plateau at all.

Fair enough. I wasn't suggesting you do weird shit while sparring, but I'm also not going to be blathering about code a ton, so I'll just let it be what it is. To cede you your point though, yes, sparring becomes useless for some folks after a while.

[Synthesis]

I didn't say that the results would be crystal clear, or that progress wouldn't crawl along. I didn't say that it would help everyone. And maybe I exaggerated with the bit about 'very, very few'. But let's be honest, between you and I; there's probably quite a few fighters who aren't exactly doing everything they could, because it's either too slow, or they don't understand it all, or it takes too much time away from RPing. I know I tend to be lazy along this line, because I spend a lot of time RPing rather than maxing.

You hit on one key thing plenty of people could work on in your very first sentence. And you and I both know how.

And to trump all of this, if they are OOCly choosing not to spar someone because they won't gain anything, then it's probable that whoever they are not sparring would gain something, so they should be sparring anyway, if it's their IC job to do so.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, because I've never gone down the "do weird shit in sparring" route.  Anyway, it's entirely possible for 2 people to spar and to learn nothing.  It happens all the damn time, I imagine, otherwise there wouldn't be any sparring plateau at all.

Fair enough. I wasn't suggesting you do weird shit while sparring, but I'm also not going to be blathering about code a ton, so I'll just let it be what it is. To cede you your point though, yes, sparring becomes useless for some folks after a while.

If "some" didn't equal "most," and "after a while" didn't equal "long before you are really any good at all," we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, that's fair, assuming that those did equal that. But I think the older, somewhat limited code, and the obfuscated way in which it seems to work, given my own observations, makes a lot of people think it's useless before it actually is. Regardless, I agree with you, assuming you wish that it worked in a smarter manner.