Master Weaponcrafters

[shadeoux]

I was wonder what you all thought about breaking the Master Weaponsmiths up to provide more varity in the subguild overall.

My Proposal; 
Master Weaponsmith Subguild 1;
This would consist of, Slash, Pierce and Chopping (Arguably the most used) and remove making Arrows.

Master Weaponsmith Subguild 2;
This would consist of, Clubs as well as all archery items. (Bows, Slings and Arrows)

The reasoning is, there is no way to Mastercraft a Bow or Clubs without being a merchant, and with a couple tweeks this could change for the better.

Thoughts on the idea, good bad or indifferent...

[RogueGunslinger]

I say just give them all to the current extended subguild.

[BadSkeelz]

"Breaking the Master Weaponsmiths up to provide more varity in the subguild" just translates to more "shit you'll never be able to accomplish for arbitrary code reasons." One of the selling points of the extended Subguilds is how they let our characters accomplish stuff that'd normally be impossible.

Rather have bows added to the extended Subguild than it being broken up.

Sorry, not a fan of this idea.

[Synthesis]

There's no Master Woodcrafter extended sub, yet.

Give it fletchery branching to bowmaking.

Give it lumberjacking.

Give it woodworking branching to club-making.

The only small problem is that there are a whole bunch of fletchery recipes that don't involve wood at all, and there are a lot of club-making recipes that really are 90% stone and 10% wood.  But whatever.

[Delirium]

Master Bowyer

- bow crafting (master)
- fletchery (master)
- featherworking (advanced)
- woodworking (advanced)
- lumberjacking (advanced)

[Synthesis]

No reason why a master bowyer would be a boss at making chests and furniture.

It'd be better to lump the wood-heavy crafting skills into a single Master Woodcrafter extended sub.

[hyzhenhok]

I'd just make the Master Bowyer almost entirely focused on crafting bows and arrows, but then allow him to branch Archery to give it an interested twist compared to the others and to make up for its limited crafting profile.

[Synthesis]

I'd just make the Master Bowyer almost entirely focused on crafting bows and arrows, but then allow him to branch Archery to give it an interested twist compared to the others and to make up for its limited crafting profile.

I'm not sure archery would really be a valuable addition.

Merchants would never take this subguild, because it's a relatively easy branch.

Warriors and rangers already get archery, so they'd only be taking it for the crafting.

A few assassins might take it, but 99 times out of 100, they're just going to roll with Outdoorsman if they want to shoot people/things (also gives skinning, so they have a reason to hunt), and if they're going to be city-based and want a crafting skill...a wood-heavy crafting subguild seems like a poor choice in a city with a notable absence of easily-available wood.

I can't really imagine why a burglar or pickpocket would want to craft bows and to shoot things.

Magickers...meh...maybe?  If I were a gemmer, I wouldn't want to count on begging people in the Gaj to go forage branches for me.

[Delirium]

No reason why a master bowyer would be a boss at making chests and furniture.

It'd be better to lump the wood-heavy crafting skills into a single Master Woodcrafter extended sub.

You know why I included it though, and it makes sense enough that they'd learn some woodcrafting tricks while shaping it for their fletchery and bow-making purposes.

[Synthesis]

No reason why a master bowyer would be a boss at making chests and furniture.

It'd be better to lump the wood-heavy crafting skills into a single Master Woodcrafter extended sub.

You know why I included it though, and it makes sense enough that they'd learn some woodcrafting tricks while shaping it for their fletchery and bow-making purposes.

I can think of one reason, maybe...but that's lumberjacking, not woodworking.

And anyway, there's no rule that says a subguild has to be able to craft its own precursor items.  Weaponsmiths don't get lumberjacking, even though the vast majority of complete spear recipes require a wooden pole.

I still think it would make more sense for the wood-heavy crafting stuff (lumberjacking, woodworking, bowmaking, at least) to be put in one extended subguild, unless they're planning on doing multiple new mastercrafting subguilds (e.g. one with lumberjacking and woodworking, one with bowmaking and fletchery).

[Delirium]

I can get behind that.

[aeglaeca]

I just think the help file should be adjusted a bit. Saying 'including x y and z' implies you're able to craft other types of weapons. Which may be true and you just can't master it? But the file being easily misread is, for me, another reason not to play a crafter. That's on top of the crafting system already being very frustrating and unintuitive.

Re: Weaponsmithing. I think calling it a master weaponsmith is misleading if you can't make/master all the weapons. If it's a balance issue, I'd prefer if weaponsmith could craft all weapons up to jman/advanced(/whatever is typical for an ext. subguild's average level) and could pick one or two areas of expertise to mastercraft. Ext. subguilds are already manually statted or something, right? Would this even be a possibility or is it too code convoluted?

[BadSkeelz]

I just think the help file should be adjusted a bit. Saying 'including x y and z' implies you're able to craft other types of weapons. Which may be true and you just can't master it? But the file being easily misread is, for me, another reason not to play a crafter. That's on top of the crafting system already being very frustrating and unintuitive.

A good rule of thumb to follow when reading the (sub)guild pages is that, if the skill isn't explicitly mentioned, you probably don't have it. Words like "including" are just window dressing, and usually don't imply there's more stuff unsaid.

Re: Weaponsmithing. I think calling it a master weaponsmith is misleading if you can't make/master all the weapons. If it's a balance issue, I'd prefer if weaponsmith could craft all weapons up to jman/advanced(/whatever is typical for an ext. subguild's average level) and could pick one or two areas of expertise to mastercraft. Ext. subguilds are already manually statted or something, right? Would this even be a possibility or is it too code convoluted?

I don't think there's a way to adjust skill caps on the fly, like you're proposing. The caps are coded in to the (sub)Guild themselves... Though given that extended subguilds already seem to be kind of manually created when you log in, perhaps there's hope.

[jcortrig]

Master woodworking doesn't really make sense for club-making, because many (most?) of our clubs are made from bone or other stuff anyways.

[Synthesis]

Master woodworking doesn't really make sense for club-making, because many (most?) of our clubs are made from bone or other stuff anyways.

Check your 'nakki privilege, son.

[roughneck]

My Proposal; 
Master Weaponsmith Subguild 1;
This would consist of, Slash, Pierce and Chopping (Arguably the most used) and remove making Arrows.

Master Weaponsmith Subguild 2;
This would consist of, Clubs as well as all archery items. (Bows, Slings and Arrows)

I do think that axemaking should be part of the master weaponsmith guild... but if you mastered swordmaking, or even knifemaking, there's no reason you couldn't make a unique cleaver-type or kukri blade that did chopping damage.

There's no Master Woodcrafter extended sub, yet.

Give it fletchery branching to bowmaking.

Give it lumberjacking.

Give it woodworking branching to club-making.

The only small problem is that there are a whole bunch of fletchery recipes that don't involve wood at all, and there are a lot of club-making recipes that really are 90% stone and 10% wood.  But whatever.

I actually think this is a good option for adding a subguild that would cover some options that aren't currently there.

[Harmless]

I'm pretty sure skill caps can be adjusted by admins in the game. I once had a skill cap brought down to 0 or 1, to effectively remove the skill from my skill list, so yeah. They could probably also be raised so that a few chosen skills could be mastered. I like this idea of choosing a specialty.

[jcortrig]

I do like the idea of having clubs and so forth be mastercraftable.  They are the simplest of weapons and we should have more options than there are, I think it's literally the rarest weapon type (at least as variety goes).

[hyzhenhok]

Master woodworking doesn't really make sense for club-making, because many (most?) of our clubs are made from bone or other stuff anyways.

The same thing should be true about bows in the wood-starved world that is Zalanthas. Non-wood composite bows are real things.

[BadSkeelz]

Bone atlatls (spear-throwers). Borrow some crossbow code and have it load javelins?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Hah. I've been meaning to write a question addressing the Master Weaponsmith's underwhelming skillset vis a vis the lack of subguilds with axe making and club making.

Personally, I think Weaponsmith should loose the arrows (seems like the odd man out skill of the group anyways) and gain axemaking and clubmaking, perhaps in a branching tree.

I also really dig the Master Boyer thing going on here, though this combo bowmaker / woodworker / why-the-fuck-not-clubmaker thing kind of has me scratching my head. Just give him bowmaking, fletchery, featherworking, and archery (ala the regular Archer subguild). If you think he needs more flavoring than that, just throw in another grab skill (knifemaking, he can make throwing daggers too), or lower the CGP cost to 2.

If woodworking really needs an extended subguild home, why not just throw it on Master Potter along with Instrument Making and change the guild's name to "Displaced Tuluki." Either that or bundle up pottery, stoneworking, woodworking (and maybe a couple other minor skills no one would burn a spec app on) and call it "Master Artisan" or something, since those tend to be the artsy-fartsy crafts anyways.

So, what I'm proposing:

MASTER WEAPONSMITH
- swordmaking
- knifemaking
- clubmaking
- axemaking
- value/barter

MASTER BOYER
- bow making
- fletchery
- featherworking
- archery
- maybe knifeworking
- value/barter

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

A displaced tuluki subguild would be sweet.

[Jihelu]

A displaced tuluki subguild would be sweet.

All it gives you is a slight bonus to  chopping.

[Molten Heart]

Forget the woodworking and lumberjacking and have more bone arrow shaft recipies that produce more than one arrow shaft added.

Code Select Expand

You are carrying:
a long piece of bone

> craft bone
You can craft a bone arrow shaft from that.
You can craft a couple bone arrow shafts from that.
You can craft a few bone arrow shafts from that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

... what I'm proposing:

MASTER WEAPONSMITH
- swordmaking
- knifemaking
- clubmaking
- axemaking
- value/barter

MASTER BOYER
- bow making
- fletchery
- featherworking
- archery
- maybe knifeworking
- value/barter

I support this.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

A displaced tuluki subguild would be sweet.

I was mostly being an ass. (Too soon?)

But I honestly would be for taking some of the carving/scuplting skills and throwing them together into some kind of master class.

MASTER ARTISAN
stoneworking
pottery /clayworking (whatever the skill is called)
lumberjacking
woodworking
maybe toolmaking and/or instrument working to round it out
barter/value

[Norcal]

I wonder if there is a cap on the number of skills in an extended subguild, which can reach masters level.

Also it would be neat to see the current master weapons maker into three different ext subguilds, one for each class of weapons. Probably not possible because some skills can produce weapons in different classes.

Or, into four separate ones Boyer (bows arrows and knives)  Point master (Spears and knives) or Edge master (Swords and axes)  Hammer master (Clubs).

I think master carpenter would be a good ext subguild:
Woodworking (Master)
Wagon making (Master)
Instrument making (Master)
Lumberjacking (Advanced)
Value/haggle (Advanced)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Wagonmaking doesn't count. It's a vestigial skill, not an actual skill. Other than that I'm not really opposed to a master woodworker. I just think that for the cost of a spec app you should get more than 1 useful skill. Same goes for the idea of breaking down the Master Weaponcrafter. Taking a class with 3 skills and turning it into a class with 2 skills doesn't seem appealing.

I personally don't see having 3-4 Mastercraft skills as being OP to the point that it needs to be broken down. Especially when you factor in the economy of the game. A person with just the Armorcrafting skill can churn out coins like there's no tomorrow. The material can be difficult to find if there are no good hunters around, but armor sells pretty high. A high-end helmet or breastplate can fetch you at least 800 on the PC market. Compare that to making melee weapons where there are 5 different skills and generally speaking the materials are a bit easier to find, but they sell for quite a bit less. If you pay more than 300 sid for a weapon, you're buying "look" dressing, not coded benefit.

Either way, I think it's a pretty square deal for the cost of a specapp. If the ability to make goods (and money) were OP, you should just take the merchant class where, for free, you can play the dainty dappens welp who makes silk corsets, diamond jewelry or - when the mood strikes - an obsidian spiked, horror shell breastplate with a carru horn & spider fang impaling spike where the breechguard should be. But since anyone with ample play times and a fair knowledge of the game can crank out a thousand coins per IRL day with just about any class, I see money as being vastly underpowered to begin with.

And actually, now that I'm rambling, why is the entire gamut of armor making (leather armor, shell platemail, wooden shields, helmets) summed up with a single skill, where-as the gumut of weapons are broken down into a series of skills?

[Inks]

I have been wanting to play a master bowyer concept I made ages ago. But sadly not yet to be.