OMG magicker thread!

[CindyLou]

Those criminals and "unsavory" magickers do frequent other taverns (in my experience and observation), but they simply behave less unsavory when they're there. Criminals can't commit a crime unless they have a mark, afterall - and what better place to find a mark than in a crowded tavern of the more civilized variety?

On the other hand, while they're -not- in those more civilized places, I would mention that there already exists a place for them. If they're truly as unsavory as we would hope they are, they'd already know about this place, and be hanging out there.

On the OTHER hand (I'm grabbing mansa's hand and tossing it in the pit, meh) , some of these "less civilized" folks have no desire to go to that area, and for good reason. So I agree, the elemental quarter would have much more functionality if there was a place they could go. In fact I even have a location or two in mind.

[Anonymous]

A lot of magickers, freaks, criminals and generally seedy types don't hang around in the main taverns because it isn't the kind of place most of them would be comfortable.

If that is really the case then why was Rindan's idea originally turned down on the basis that it would spread the playerbase thin?  Every gemmed magicker I played went to taverns at nighttime and I can think of a lot of others who did so as well.

I haven't really played heavily in Allanak in about a couple of months so if things have changed I wouldn't know.

[Rindan]

It probably can not be denied that at least a small portion of current residents of the taverns would up and leave to a new one.  My point is that it would not be that bad because in the end net a higher concentration of players and more interaction.

Sit down in the Bard's Barrel (where most of the Allanak population is these days) some time and just count how many people come in and out over the course of a RL hour or two.  Count how many of them would belong in this new tavern.  You are going to count a LOT of house people, a few militia, some merchants, a few militia, and a few Byn.  You might get lucky and catch a Gemmed.  You might get an elf or two who spends only a few moments in there, and you might get some other unsavory folks.  However, these folks will be far and few in-between.  Further, if these folks had business in the Barrel, regardless if it is pick pocketing or meeting someone with a few 'sid to rub together, a new tavern would not have effected their behavior.  The Barrel is still the place to go where the upper and the lower classes can mingle.  It is still where you would look for upper class work and where you go to steal from upper class people.  Take out the unsavory element and the population of the Barrel is not going to even flinch.

Another thing to observe is just how much interaction the few who come by who would belong in this over tavern do.  Generally they come on business and interaction with their business associates or they sit alone doing nothing.  For these people this is a pretty low level of interaction.  They rarely have much in the way of interpersonal relationships because their numbers are so low that they can't find one another.  I don't think that the quality of interaction for these people is particularly high.  They are prohibited for even hinting at their line of work.  They serve mostly as center pieces for other people to RP off of.  A Gemmed sits down and people emote how they react.  That is the extent of the reaction.  The Gemmed can't do much more then take it, as anything else is just going to bring a Templar down on them.

Now, with an alternative tavern of outcasts you can increase their interactions and in increase their interactions with the rest of the MUD.  One of the hardest things to do in Armageddon is get like minded people together and do something.  This is hard simply because if you want to do something that is not commonly accepted in the tavern of choice someone is going to come down on you long before you gather any sort of support.  Starting anything dark and underhanded in Armageddon as a non-house person is very hard.  Criminal activity in general is very hard, and organized criminal activity is even harder.  There is just no good way to meet like minded people and get things moving.

If a place is offered up where gemmed and unsavory folks can meet there suddenly becomes an avenue for another type of interaction opens up.  Gemmed can interact and create various plots and criminals can do the same.  The two might even find themselves combining forces to do things together.  Instead of being RP posts for people to show how much they hate gemmed, they now have a place where they can actually attempt to be movers and shakers on the MUD.  When things start to move other people can't help but be pulled in.  This is why I think it would benefit interaction over all.  You draw together a very fractured group that is rarely seen in public and never seen together into something cohesieve that can interaction with the rest of the MUD.  It is like rounding up all the hunters into a hunting party.  It doesn't steal from interaction, it makes interaction possible.  It makes a cohesive force that can act with the rest of the MUD instead of bunch of splintered individuals waiting to be used.

You might never see a noble, but that doesn't mean that nobility don't have any influence on the game.  This is sort of like nobility in reverse.  True, you might never see some of the people who frequent this seedy tavern, but as soon as they start to make things move you will see the effect.  I would personally rather have things be moving then have them act as RP posts.  Throw this tavern in and there is the potential for an undercurrent in Allanak is a very political place these days.  Everyone is in a house uniform as servants, advisors, or some such.  The dark, gritty, hard edge of Allanak is dull.  This seedy little tavern would be a perfect way to help the darker underside of Allanak thrive, and in the end interact and affect the clean cut political side.

As to the actual numbers of taverns, I think people worry too much.  A tavern is not hurting the player concentration unless people are picking an unpopulated tavern over a populated one.  Tuluk might have six taverns, but only two of them are used.  The tavern in the bards section of town isn't sucking the life out of any other place.  The same goes for the 'rinth taverns.  The 'rinth taverns might be there, but it isn't like they are hurting the patronage of the Barrel.  This Gemmed tavern might come into existence, but I honestly don't think anyone would even notice as the people who would use it either wouldn't be caught dead in the Barrel, visit it only on business, or are so few in number that it doesn't mater.

[Angela Christine]

Bah, just take over the Gaj.  There is hardly anyone but elves and newbies in there these days, PC-wise, and when have the Templars ever given a damn about the Gaj?

AC

[aruna]

First of all, I  really, really like Rindan's idea. I just have some food for thought.

I'm in agreement with how AC feels (in regards to just taking over an existing tavern).

In my opinion, a shady tavern like this would have to come about naturally.  As I see it, a tavern with shady dealings and shady people would have become that way over time (say "taken over"), and not because someone somewhere decided to build a place where the freaks could go. Something like that would probably be incredibly difficult to do, depending on who you are/what your motive is.

Most probably, if you want to start a business this shady, you're an outcast yourself who wants to have a place to meet other outcasts, where some of the more dishonest dealings can be done without repercussions from the law,  and where you dont feel quite so out of place - while at the same time (hoping to) make a profit. So you decide to be brave and take the initiative.  I say this because if you're not an outcast yourself, your chances of getting this off the ground without any funding from the nobility and templarate, and having any -motive- for doing so, is even lower.   You're going to need help.  It's going to have to come from somewhere other than the templarate and nobility, since the aim is to create an evironment essentially free from the arm of the law, and no noble or templar that provides funding for a tavern is going to be doing it without  some sort of catch. And to get that help, you're going to have to have to be damn convincing, and find people of like mind (with money to spare) who are going to benefit from this place. You're chances of that are going to be a hell of a lot higher if you're someone that can relate... but they're still not going to be very high, just because of the type of people you're dealing with.  Is it impossible? Of course not.  There are already taverns in the 'rinth, after all. But it's pretty damn hard.

Alternatives. You could just mosey on over to the 'rinth and do your thing there, but chances are you're going to get your ass killed on the walk over, and even if you don't, it's sure as hell not going to be like a walk in the park.

Getting more to the point, I think taking over the Gaj is an interesting idea.  It's much easier, for one thing.  It's already run down, rustic, and relatively dangerous compared to the higher class establishments.  All it takes is getting in there and making it a point to show people that just because wally the warrior doesn't feel comfortable having you in the same room with him, you're still going to sit there and drink your ale. Sure, there are people that hate you, don't feel comfortable with you, and are fucking scared of you - but they're supposed to be. Eventually, more "outcasts" are going to start going there too - elves, half-elves, humans of the shadier nature, magickers, etc - and people will start to get the hint, and go elsewhere.

Now, of course there are some potential problems to this (depending on how you look at it).

1) The warriors and mercenaries that are currently the primary clientele are going to get pissed off. It wont be "their" place anymore.  Quite possibly, the place wont be called "The Gaj and Gladiator" anymore. But they'll either try to revolt (conflict rocks!), or set up shop somewhere else. Either way, I think it'd make for a lot of interesting roleplay.

2)The Gaj is on the main road of Allanak, usually the first tavern one comes across after entering the city. Again, this could create more conflict.  But eventually, it will be common knowledge that "you don't want to go there."  Hell, many people have that view of the Gaj the way it is now.

3) People might see it as a problem both ICly, and OOCly. ICly, A Templar might get wind of what's going on, see it as a problem that's getting out of hand, and try to intervene. But IMO, the job of the Templarate needs to be harder anyway, and it'll make things interesting - create a constant struggle (which is, incidentally, what armageddon is all about).  

OOCly, people might feel that it would be the start of a rise in power (if only miniscule) for the elementalists and thieves, etc, it might make their lives (slightly) easier, and more common. Some people think that these classes are harder to play for a reason - because they are the minority, and they're supposed to be that way. But why? Those classes are there as an option for a reason as well. So you can play them, and help make the world that much harsher. Conversely, speaking specifically of magickers, a part of me feels that they should be becoming more and more common, not less so.  There is an -entire quarter- set aside for these people, they're allowed citizenship in the city, and they're commonly hired by powerful people, and Houses. Eventually (if things keep progressing the way they are) they're going to be so common that they'll be at least tolerated, if not (i'm looking far, far into the future here) respected.  I don't know how I feel about this, as it doesn't exactly scream "harsh" to me: taking what has been one of the scariest parts of the game and turning it around gives me mixed feelings.  Which brings me to my next point.

Someone mentioned that the visibility of magickers, elves, half-elves - "freaks"- is becoming less and less. This SHOULD NOT be happening. This is freakin' Armageddon. It shouldn't be getting safer.  The masses aren't supposed to be able to enjoy a nice afternoon out on a regular basis. People should be -dying-. It shouldn't be a rare occasion where you get mugged walking down the street. And it sure as hell shouldn't be strange to see a tavern on a well known street that happens to be "shady".

It's time for a revolution, folks.  It just takes a few ballsy mother fuckers to get the ball rolling.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Bah, just take over the Gaj. There is hardly anyone but elves and newbies in there these days, PC-wise, and when have the Templars ever given a damn about the Gaj?

AC

I've been hearing rumors that my beloved Gaj is floundering... Sigh...

That's it! My next character is going to a rough-and-tumble, scratch-his-gonads, smack-a-halfbreed Southerner. Get ready for lots of drunken barfights, people!  :lol:

[Anonymous]

The problem with 'taking over the gaj' is that a few PCs won't account for the hordes of regular VNPC traffic that bar gets, at least not enough to account for such a shift in clientele.

[Rindan]

The problem with 'taking over the gaj' is that a few PCs won't account for the hordes of regular VNPC traffic that bar gets, at least not enough to account for such a shift in clientele.

Perhaps more of a problem is that it is a massive tavern on the most used street in Allanak on the most patroled road in Allanak.  It is like selling cocain out of a lemonade stand next to a police station.  It is just a bad idea.  The Gaj has its place as a massive mercenary/commoner bar.

[Twilight]

Whatever happened to the tavern, or at least at one point, burnt out shell of a tavern, that was on Slave's Street, right near the rinth?  If I remember right, there was no bartender or anything, but there were tables and a sort of backroom.  It was quite an excellent middle ground where people from the rinth and people from the city proper could meet for, um, business.  I mean, I know it is gone, but I seem to have missed whatever IC event caused the destruction, it having disappeared while I was playing a wilderness character.  That place, refurbished, although not in the Elementalists quarter, kind of what people thinking of?