Combat Skill Progression Revamped

[HavokBlue]

Having played a warrior with advanced/master skills, if someone told me I needed to go fight a rantarri to skill up I would have cried.

The wildlife at the high end of the threat spectrum might be complete pushovers until RNG rolls in their favor and the one single hit they land is the one that hits your head for 80 damage and reels you.

You shouldn't have to roll the dice like that to improve your skills. "Oh boy, I might maybe possible skill up, or I might get reel locked and die! Appealing choice!"

With that in mind, I agree that skilling up at higher levels of combat becomes counter-intuitive and could probably be handled better, but I need to think about how.

[Is Friday]

I think primarily the issue is "people cannot realistically improve" past a glass ceiling that exists only for city-bound characters as opposed to indie rangers. Which is inherently dumb.

[Clearsighted]

Why not try requesting a skill bump when you feel you have leveled out and your roleplay merits a boost to those skills? Maybe your roleplay that your superiors just weren't the best when they trained you. Maybe you roleplay that its particularly difficult to learn something: Because it probably is.

lol

Okay. Apparently, learning how to use a polearm in Arm is more rigorous and taxing to learn, than how to cast flaming meteors from the sky.

But no, you can spam cast nil for a couple days in perfect safety and be master of the heavens.

[RogueGunslinger]

Stabbing weapons aren't knives?

That's a whole other problem. That there's a knife-weapons branch at all is silly.

The 'highly elaborate reason' that this game emphasizes roleplay as opposed to coded skills?

Why not try requesting a skill bump when you feel you have leveled out and your roleplay merits a boost to those skills? Maybe your roleplay that your superiors just weren't the best when they trained you. Maybe you roleplay that its particularly difficult to learn something: Because it probably is.

I guess I haven't ever played a character long enough to really have a serious complaint, because if I needed it the avenues to get what I needed already exist.

The "highly elaborate reasons" he was talking about were in relation to thinking Weapons skills should require some weird-fuck twinkery, or staff intervention in order to advance but other, more powerful skills don't.

Also, I am not above discussing ways to improve the code. I am above discussing ways to make power-gaming easier by exploiting the code.

Nobody is doing that. Nobody here is discussion ways to make power-gaming easier.

[Aruven]

Why not try requesting a skill bump when you feel you have leveled out and your roleplay merits a boost to those skills? Maybe your roleplay that your superiors just weren't the best when they trained you. Maybe you roleplay that its particularly difficult to learn something: Because it probably is.

lol

Okay. Apparently, learning how to use a polearm in Arm is more rigorous and taxing to learn, than how to cast flaming meteors from the sky.

But no, you can spam cast nil for a couple days in perfect safety and be master of the heavens.

Sure, it sounds like you have some beef with the magick code. I personally don't think magick roles should be stuffed into a quarter where that's all they have to do, but hey: Lets talk one issue at a time.

[Clearsighted]

Why not try requesting a skill bump when you feel you have leveled out and your roleplay merits a boost to those skills? Maybe your roleplay that your superiors just weren't the best when they trained you. Maybe you roleplay that its particularly difficult to learn something: Because it probably is.

lol

Okay. Apparently, learning how to use a polearm in Arm is more rigorous and taxing to learn, than how to cast flaming meteors from the sky.

But no, you can spam cast nil for a couple days in perfect safety and be master of the heavens.

Sure, it sounds like you have some beef with the magick code. I personally don't think magick roles should be stuffed into a quarter where that's all they have to do, but hey: Lets talk one issue at a time.

I don't have a beef with magick code. What I do have difficulty with is someone (that's already admitted trolling the thread once) who can suggest putting in skill bump requests as an alternative to combat reform, while apparently being a tiny bit defensive over the status quo.

Not all gickers are gemmers. And guess what? It is the same issue. It's perfectly valid to point to other areas of the game where more powerful skills are raised more quickly, easily and in perfect safety, compared to others.

[Harmless]

i think things might be a bit easier if there were more young characters in military clans with good fighting skills, and obviously very good agility. That would help a lot. Diversity is always a good thing.

The problem is, being very agile, young, and weak doesn't really give that player many advantages. being prime age allows for good strength, good wisdom, good endurance. Playing a young character isn't everybody's playstyle. For those who are in the mood to do it though, they are a great help to others to have around.

You also have elves, but the only clan you can spar with elves in for most folks is the Byn, and not everybody will want to join the Byn. Then, there are ways of making elves your enemy... but good luck with that shit.

Basically, there's no perfect solution with the current code for everybody to be able to achieve mastery, and I think that's what was intended.  If you're a veteran enough player to understand the code and how skill progression works, then you can plan a character concept who will be able to achieve what you feel is needed for the concept, or to special app for the appropriate skill bumps to get what you want. The system isn't perfect, and any system will have flaws. I enjoy things as they are myself, and think a lot of it is in the playerbase's hands -- there should likely be more weapon skill lessons in military clans, there should be diversity in the players joining those clans and more leeway given to players in coming up with drills so that they can leave the sparring session feeling happy that they have advanced a little, which we all agree is a nice feeling that comes with the game. What I want isn't a total revamp, but more variety in how fighting works, but I'm not going to cry about anything as it is. I wouldn't mind a bit more variety of fast AND dangerous creatures without going into the ridiculously deadly territory, also... something between a rantarri and a stilt lizard.

[RogueGunslinger]

Between a Rantarri and a stilt lizard? Big tarantulas.

[Aruven]

I don't have a beef with magick code. What I do have difficulty with is someone (that's already admitted trolling the thread once) who can suggest putting in skill bump requests as an alternative to combat reform, while apparently being a tiny bit defensive over the status quo.

I'm not suggesting putting in a skill bump request, that's been around for a long time and is already in effect. You can actually do that right now.

I'm also not being defensive about the status quo, i'm playing devils advocate. You're obviously not reading my posts where I am asking you questions about how the code as is is actually a detriment to your roleplay IG (Or you're just choosing not to respond). That would be a productive discussion if you maybe could point out those specifics. I've seen some interesting discussion throughout this, maybe the staff will pick it up.

I like what Harmless said about it, and I feel that's where it somewhat stands. When someone has an awesome idea to mend the flaws, i'll be all about it.

[Armaddict]

I like what Harmless said about it, and I feel that's where it somewhat stands. When someone has an awesome idea to mend the flaws, i'll be all about it.

Pretty much.  I don't think anyone has said the current system is without flaws.  My standpoint is that the flaw is at this point reasonable, and changes that have been proposed throw things pretty quickly into  worse ground than it is right now, game wise.

Having played a warrior with advanced/master skills, if someone told me I needed to go fight a rantarri to skill up I would have cried.

The wildlife at the high end of the threat spectrum might be complete pushovers until RNG rolls in their favor and the one single hit they land is the one that hits your head for 80 damage and reels you.

You shouldn't have to roll the dice like that to improve your skills. "Oh boy, I might maybe possible skill up, or I might get reel locked and die! Appealing choice!"

With that in mind, I agree that skilling up at higher levels of combat becomes counter-intuitive and could probably be handled better, but I need to think about how.

As a note, this is what I was talking about.  People are trying to get there with a sense of risk-aversion.  You don't become a master fighter in a couple years with risk aversion.  With risk aversion, you can realistically look at doing it over the course of a much longer scale of time, by plucking proportionate partners who can help you without trying to kill you.  You learn faster by actually going out and tackling those bad beasties.  By searching for the good fight, and the victory.  Even the frowned on 'gather up npc's for pack combat' is not very effective and just looks strange...as long as you are in a comfort zone, you're not learning much.

But the idea that everyone should get to mastery by staying safe in their training hall for a couple years?  That's why my tone has been perhaps coming across as more unfriendly than I intend it to be.   Because I find that idea very short-sighted.

[HavokBlue]

As a note, this is what I was talking about.  People are trying to get there with a sense of risk-aversion.  You don't become a master fighter in a couple years with risk aversion.  With risk aversion, you can realistically look at doing it over the course of a much longer scale of time, by plucking proportionate partners who can help you without trying to kill you.  You learn faster by actually going out and tackling those bad beasties.  By searching for the good fight, and the victory.  Even the frowned on 'gather up npc's for pack combat' is not very effective and just looks strange...as long as you are in a comfort zone, you're not learning much.

But the idea that everyone should get to mastery by staying safe in their training hall for a couple years?  That's why my tone has been perhaps coming across as more unfriendly than I intend it to be.   Because I find that idea very short-sighted.

I agree with you in principle, Armaddict.

The problem is the way high-risk wildlife functions.

I don't think the risk-reward exchange should be reduced to encounters with enemies who any skilled warrior will generally trounce, unless luck is against them and they get smashed for a big chunk of HP, or burned down by a script that ignores combat code. That's rolling the dice or flipping a coin where one side is a skillup and the other is the mantis head and let's be honest. Amos the Hunter dying alone in the woods to something nasty because he wanted master chopping and couldn't get those last few ticks doesn't really enhance anyone's fun, from a gameplay perspective.

In the interest of not handicapping city characters like soldiers or long-lived templars/nobles, it would be neat if there was a way to train yourself at high levels that was accessible to those characters. Even if the spaghetti pile that is the code were modified to reward hunting dangerous things instead of the current optimal targets, it doesn't solve the issue of city characters getting the short end of the stick, like Is Friday pointed out.

[Armaddict]

As a note, this is what I was talking about.  People are trying to get there with a sense of risk-aversion.  You don't become a master fighter in a couple years with risk aversion.  With risk aversion, you can realistically look at doing it over the course of a much longer scale of time, by plucking proportionate partners who can help you without trying to kill you.  You learn faster by actually going out and tackling those bad beasties.  By searching for the good fight, and the victory.  Even the frowned on 'gather up npc's for pack combat' is not very effective and just looks strange...as long as you are in a comfort zone, you're not learning much.

But the idea that everyone should get to mastery by staying safe in their training hall for a couple years?  That's why my tone has been perhaps coming across as more unfriendly than I intend it to be.   Because I find that idea very short-sighted.

I agree with you in principle, Armaddict.

The problem is the way high-risk wildlife functions.

I don't think the risk-reward exchange should be reduced to encounters with enemies who any skilled warrior will generally trounce, unless luck is against them and they get smashed for a big chunk of HP, or burned down by a script that ignores combat code. That's rolling the dice or flipping a coin where one side is a skillup and the other is the mantis head and let's be honest. Amos the Hunter dying alone in the woods to something nasty because he wanted master chopping and couldn't get those last few ticks doesn't really enhance anyone's fun, from a gameplay perspective.

In the interest of not handicapping city characters like soldiers or long-lived templars/nobles, it would be neat if there was a way to train yourself at high levels that was accessible to those characters. Even if the spaghetti pile that is the code were modified to reward hunting dangerous things instead of the current optimal targets, it doesn't solve the issue of city characters getting the short end of the stick, like Is Friday pointed out.

TOR ACADEMY, WHERE ARE YOU.

[Synthesis]

I think the best way to fix it (this is a pie-in-the-sky idea):

1.  Split offense capability into 6 categories:  a) base offense; b) style (single vs dual vs etwo); c) weapon skill; d) random element; e) species-specific modifier.  Relative contribution would be 50% from the species-specific modifier and 10% from each other category.

2.  Split defense capability into 7 categories: a) base defense; b) style (single vs. dual vs etwo); c) weapon skill; d) parry skill; d) shield use skill (if shield is equipped); e) species-specific modifier; f) random element.  Relative contribution would be 50% from species-specific modifier, 10% from each category, plus another 10% from shield use if you choose to use a shield.

Base defense, offense, weapon skills, wield skills, parry, shield use all max out fairly quickly...on par with how fast parry rises at the moment.  However, the downside is that they only contribute about 50% of your potential badass-itude.

In your playerfile is a list of hidden species-specific combat modifiers...for every type of critter in the game (you could lump all the humanoids together as 'humanoid,' I suppose).  Every time you fight a critter type, your species-specific modifier for that critter-type increases.  These would go up slowly.  You could split offense and defense, or use the same variable for both calculations. (I'd go for the split route, so that you could have differential subguild effects for protector vs. aggressor.)

Each class would have hard caps on various critter type modifiers.  E.g. assassins would have a high humanoid cap, low carru cap...warriors would have a high humanoid cap, with moderate remainder caps, rangers would have a moderate humanoid cap with high carru caps...etc. etc. etc.  Certain subguilds (aggressor, outdoorsman, protector, etc.) would increase the hidden species-specific caps.

You'd still have the problem of very dangerous PKillers arising by simply sparring, but APPARENTLY, people are willing to accept this (until it gets entirely out of hand...then everyone will be begging for the good old days).  Just to maybe change some minds, though, if you've never been instagibbed, this is how bad it sucks:

The Main Bazaar [NESW]
   The clamor, tumult, and melange of smells that make up the bewildering
chaos of Allanak's main bazaar fill the air.  Crowds jostle each other on
every side, in a constant jumble of shouts, arguments, and conversations.
Merchants from both Allanak and afar trade goods and services, throughout
the day and night.  Tents and stalls are scattered throughout the bazaar,
vendors and beggars vying fiercely for prime spots.  The dry air is filled
with the red dust kicked up into the air by the constant movement of the
crowds, as well as the mingled smell of cooking foods, perfumes, spilled
wines and attars, the reek of tanning and dyeing vats, and unwashed bodies
to every side.
A small stand has been erected here, with small fruits hanging off it.
The chestnut-haired, elderly woman sits here, cutting some cloth.

89/89, 108/115, 86/86, walking, early afternoon>  °
89/89, 108/115, 86/86, walking, early afternoon>  Your vision goes black.
                                _______                                ___
                              /\\_____//~-_                        _-~\\__
                             (~)       ~-_ ~-_                  _-~ _-~   
                            (~)           ~-_ ~-_            _-~ /-~     
Welcome to Armageddon!     (~)              `~-_ ~_======_--~~ __~       


You need to ask yourself if you -really- want -every- assassin who spars regularly to reach that kind of Fuck All Y'all level.  Where you can be standing in the middle of the bazaar, in the middle of the day, minding your own business...and then you're rolling a new PC.

[Clearsighted]

But the idea that everyone should get to mastery by staying safe in their training hall for a couple years?  That's why my tone has been perhaps coming across as more unfriendly than I intend it to be.   Because I find that idea very short-sighted.

For the record, I completely agree. I do not advocate changing the nature of sparring at all.

I think that clans which have routine sparring are already well positioned to get the most out of a possible combat reform, since they can more easily and safely (in numbers) tackle dangerous creatures.

So the GMHs, Miltia and Byn will be fine. The house guards of various noble houses might still be screwed...But let's be honest. Your first job as a character shouldn't be 'Bodyguard to Lady Borsail'. That *should* be, like the end result of a long and distinguished career in other institutions. Like a retirement package for master warriors.

What I would like to see

A system which takes into account the danger of a critter (possibly vis a vis referring to its offensive rating), and depending on how high it is, give you a 'partial failure' for failing to crit it. Similarly to when you fail to hit the neck when shooting a bow. Or a partial failure for being parried (not for being shield blocked! Parry works similarly to dodging, shielding is entirely different).

I'd be fine if it took twenty of these partial failures to equal one failure. And in fact, I'd be in favor of balancing them, such that you could not possibly master a weapon faster, than you can currently. But it does mean you will be able to belong to the Militia, GMH or whatever, and get some partial, incremental advancement now and then, which over the course of forty-fifty days playtime, would inevitably add up.

I have no problem whatsoever with 40 day warriors getting to use their advanced weapons without ever having once dueled a stilt lizard.

[HavokBlue]

In your scenario, why are city state military organizations hunting extremely dangerous wildlife?

[Clearsighted]

In your scenario, why are city state military organizations hunting extremely dangerous wildlife?

Maybe Armageddon has changed a lot since I last played, but as I recall, the Militia of both city-states would often go on patrols. They might as well, since they have so many outposts in bat-shit faraway locations. The Legion did the kryl thing.

If the Militia is just mudsexing and sparring in the barracks, then fuck em. They can all stay at journeyman. Point is, sparring clans typically have RPTs or patrols and such, where they encounter more dangerous scenarios than your average indie hunter is willing to tolerate.

[Armaddict]

Maybe Armageddon has changed a lot since I last played, but as I recall, the Militia of both city-states would often go on patrols. They might as well, since they have so many outposts in bat-shit faraway locations. The Legion did the kryl thing.

Only a prevalent practice for short periods of time.

The majority of the time, militias are for war, expansion, and in-city business...not for policing the wilds and keeping them safe for hunters.

Edited to add:

I should clarify, that's for the south.  I think the north was more liberal in sending troops outside the gates.

[valeria]

A bit of a belated warning, but... keep it civil, or I will lock this thread.  It's possible to disagree with people without resorting to name-calling, personal attacks, etc.

[Clearsighted]

Maybe Armageddon has changed a lot since I last played, but as I recall, the Militia of both city-states would often go on patrols. They might as well, since they have so many outposts in bat-shit faraway locations. The Legion did the kryl thing.

Only a prevalent practice for short periods of time.

The majority of the time, militias are for war, expansion, and in-city business...not for policing the wilds and keeping them safe for hunters.

Edited to add:

I should clarify, that's for the south.  I think the north was more liberal in sending troops outside the gates.

Well. Screw the Militia then. They get plenty of coded benefits to staying in the city, anyways. If they don't want to 'police' the wilds though, then maybe they should bring home their distant outposts. Although, I'd be hard pressed to find the logic in any city-state not having an interest in patrolling its own territory. Not to make it safe for hunters, but to enforce their own rule. If I was a Sergeant in the Nakki Militia, I would at the very least, ride out to one of our outposts and back again, now and then.

I'd still keep sparring as it is, and I'd still change it so you could get partial successes for combat skills, based on the danger of what you were confronting. And I'd be fine with the accrual of partial successes being adjusted to take however long people think is necessary.

It will still be a better alternative than the current 'all risk/no reward vs no risk/all reward' model.

[Patuk]

Zalanthan states are not modern ones, and patrols outside the city make a lot less sense in how a city of either such size would be run.

[Clearsighted]

Zalanthan states are not modern ones, and patrols outside the city make a lot less sense in how a city of either such size would be run.

I'm not talking about modern concepts. You can go back to any era in human history with a human government that was advanced enough to maintain a standing military and control territory, or wage war, and they will have an interest in patrolling their territory. Even if it's just a few assholes riding around on kanks to see if there are any rogue magickers or gith warbands about.

If the current PCs of the Militia are no longer patrolling, then fine. I could really care less. That's just poor leadership and lack of imagination or realism. It doesn't affect combat.

But Allanak at one time, had outposts from the Tablelands to the Red Desert. They still have outposts and militia NPCs in weird locations. They do not grow them like mushrooms and then magically teleport them there. A staffer has already posted to the effect that magic is not a substitute for a military's logistic concerns.

If it's really the Allanaki Militia's policy to not occasionally ride out and patrol between where the city-state is and its various outposts to safeguard the supply lines, then those outposts should be removed.

[Eyeball]

I don't know if America is raising 'sensitive wussies' but I feel like the GDB is.

I don't know about sensitives wussies, but I've little doubt it's raising arrogant cretins.

Or maybe you enjoy being dragged through a daily sparring schedule your character can't possibly significantly benefit from and call that "RP".

[valeria]

A bit of a belated warning, but... keep it civil, or I will lock this thread.  It's possible to disagree with people without resorting to name-calling, personal attacks, etc.

Sorry guys, you're done.

Edit to add: the thread is in time out until an admin can look at it and issue some talikings to if necessary, it's probably not locked forever, please be patient.

[valeria]

The trolling that was going on here is being looked into, so I'm going to go ahead and unlock this thread.  Feel free to resume your civil, trolling-free discussion.

[Armaddict]

I kinda wish that players had access to a test server where we could test code modifications rather than just theory craft about them.  I'd have to err on the side of caution in ideas like this a lot less and be able to say 'Let's try it out!'.