Combat Skill Progression Revamped

[Is Friday]

You could just change weapon skills to scale similarly on the pass/fail routine that two_handed and dual_wield work on. Just slow down how fast you progress but make the "fail" criteria consistent. You'll fix the city-bound clan problems and put them on even footing with indie hunters. Indie hunters will get their fails no matter what, believe me.

edit:

That would be the easiest, simplistic code solution that I can think of with very little work from the other admins. The fact that you can't consistently get "dodges" in military clans is downright silly because it's the only way to progress your weapon skills. And realistically, military clans should be producing the best warriors. Not Stilt Lizard Academy.

A more dynamic, desirable solution would be to scale the failure/skill progression to work as follows...

Unclanned: 1.0 skill gain on fail
Hunting Clan: 1.1 skill gain on fail
Military Clan: 1.3 skill gain on fail

[Asanadas]

I think all clans should get a tregil spawn in their sparring hall. That would be the simplest, least effort the staff could make.

[Delirium]

I appreciate why combat skills are slower to raise, but I think they need to be tweaked to make them easier to raise for the average player.

Certain skills just promote spamming and bad form due to the way they raise, forcing a player to choose between sucking at it for an inordinately long amount time (or perhaps forever, if they're particularly unlucky or unused to how the code works), or resorting to extreme danger or questionable measures, i.e. specific creatures or circumstances.

Skills aren't the end all be all of Armageddon, but they ARE important - this is an RPI, not a MUSH.

It's a fun challenge to ignore skills, but you can't expect that to work for every concept.

[Ender]

I suppose the question I have is what is the staff perspective on this issue.  It's pretty much a fact if you want to reach the upper echelons of fighting skills you have to do one of two things:

1.  Fight specific critters under somewhat silly conditions.

2.  Beg the staff for skill gains.


This system just seems for counter-intuitive for a number of reasons.  A hardened battle guy who spends day in and day out fighting with other tough battle guys should logically be better at fighting people than the indie dunehopper who only fights obscure critters.

[Synthesis]

There are plenty of non-indie warriors and rangers who train by the same methods.  My uber-warrior was technically clanned for probably 99.9% of his time in game.  Byn, Salarr, Oash.  Mastered and branched from every basic weapon skill except piercing.

[Delirium]

Yeah, but you're Synthesis.

[Synthesis]

Still no match for fire kanks.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, really, wouldn't it just make more sense to also learn from success? A rather reduced chance, but still, a chance.

[Delirium]

A chance to learn from success would be great and pretty much solve every problem with everything.

Having to fail to progress, while amusing on a meta level, gets downright silly.

[Synthesis]

The "simple" fix would be to change the definition of what constitutes a failure for these skills.  It maintains the "fail-to-learn" mechanic, and fixes the "sparring doesn't work" problem.

[Delirium]

So, a block or parry should count as much as a dodge? Because I don't see a reason to be coy about that. And I'd agree!

Still, I think success should give a small chance of a raise across the board. It isn't just combat that suffers from this fail mechanism.

[Synthesis]

I'm sure the coders could figure out a logarithmic skill progression for any given underlying mechanic.  The question is whether they care to or not.

[Aruven]

I don't know about coding or its implementation:

When I see threads where people are like: Ten plus years of not fixing this... or that...

The staff are just people with lives. How hard is it to literally MAKE this change yourself and then just send the script or know-how to the staffers and be like ; "Look compadres, I fixed it. Let me know if your implementing it so I can spec app first"



--> I like failing is already a factor. We could add a few in for the aforementioned 'journeyman':

- Small fractional increase for successful parry.

-Add a one or two second delay somehow for solid shield-blocks (This successful shield block is rare but would also add a fractional increase)

-Maybe we could actually reward people for enduring fights, also. Maybe if the combat goes through so many cycles there are milestones where skills are rolled for a potential increase. (Say you have each parried or dodges each other 30+ times each in one match) you get some sort of fractional increase.

This is my 5 minute 2 sids addition.

[Delirium]

Well you can't just separately code something and add it in.. that's not how it works.

I'm sure that working with Armageddon's code is a gnarly endeavor much like diffusing a bomb. Some things are easier than others.

Coders also have real lives that get interrupted.

We can still speculate, suggest, and dream, but it'll take a coder with the time and know-how to do it.

[Aruven]

a coder with the time and know-how to do it.

I have one of these things.

[lostinspace]

You all speak of a glass ceiling, and I get that, but I had thought I was hitting a very real ceiling when it came to sparring with sparring weapons.

[Asanadas]

A change would be nice. PCs in a military clan following a strict sparring schedule will (most likely) never reach the level of capability that these wandering dwarves do when they're swinging at jozhals and stilt lizards, or, if so, definitely not on the same speed. That is, unless they're twinking themselves.

The argument is that characters locked safely in their clan halls shouldn't be able to get as powerful as a character out there risking their lives. This is a "feelings" argument. I feel that if a player puts the time into a clan and brings it to life, they should be rewarded with the competency that comes along with it.

[Ender]

I feel that if a player puts the time into a clan and brings it to life, they should be rewarded with the competency that comes along with it.

A million times this.  The current system goes as far as to discourage you from involving others on your hunt, as you might give up precious dodges.  In a game where we constantly ask players to involve others in their plots, our coded system should reflect that ethos.

[RogueGunslinger]

I just wish the code for skill progression would be as fun as it is intuitive and realistic. Right now I think it's lacking in all three departments.

[Aruven]

[Synthesis]

You can get around these problems, by and large, if you have a leader in your clan who knows what the deal is, and lets people train appropriately.  E.g. instead of group-ganking that mob, let people take turns soloing it.  Great time to practice rescue, as well.  If someone's facerolling it, tell them to back off and let someone else have a go.  Have your defensive guy tank it and let the noobs play with the pinata.  Etc. etc.

[Ender]

You can get around these problems, by and large, if you have a leader in your clan who knows what the deal is, and lets people train appropriately.  E.g. instead of group-ganking that mob, let people take turns soloing it.  Great time to practice rescue, as well.  If someone's facerolling it, tell them to back off and let someone else have a go.  Have your defensive guy tank it and let the noobs play with the pinata.  Etc. etc.

This is exactly the type behavior that I hate in the game.  Treating the wilds like a training grounds instead of a place with real danger where anything could happen.  I hate hate HATE that the code rewards this type of behavior.

[bcw81]

You can get around these problems, by and large, if you have a leader in your clan who knows what the deal is, and lets people train appropriately.  E.g. instead of group-ganking that mob, let people take turns soloing it.  Great time to practice rescue, as well.  If someone's facerolling it, tell them to back off and let someone else have a go.  Have your defensive guy tank it and let the noobs play with the pinata.  Etc. etc.

This is exactly the type behavior that I hate in the game.  Treating the wilds like a training grounds instead of a place with real danger where anything could happen.  I hate hate HATE that the code rewards this type of behavior.

+1

[Clearsighted]

I appreciate why combat skills are slower to raise, but I think they need to be tweaked to make them easier to raise for the average player.

Certain skills just promote spamming and bad form due to the way they raise, forcing a player to choose between sucking at it for an inordinately long amount time (or perhaps forever, if they're particularly unlucky or unused to how the code works), or resorting to extreme danger or questionable measures, i.e. specific creatures or circumstances.

Exactly.

Also. I hate feeling like a fucking twink, just because I've been playing long enough to know that there are only 2-3 specific circumstances where I can expect to get a miss (after a certain point), and I hate knowing that. At the same time, because Armageddon is a harsh world and death does come suddenly, swiftly and without remorse, I feel compelled to take necessary precautions by skilling myself up.

It would be bliss if I could go about my IC job with the knowledge that provided I put myself into increasingly challenging circumstances, I could achieve at least partial, incremental progress. Such as if weapon skills racked up tiny partial failures for not critting. I would not care if it took twenty such partials to equal one fail. At least there would be some forward momentum.

If this were the case, I wouldn't care if I could get to mastery in 15 days on hawks, but took 45 days otherwise. I'd never fight another hawk again. It'd be like playing a magicker almost (except for the 45 days vs 5 days thing).

The argument is that characters locked safely in their clan halls shouldn't be able to get as powerful as a character out there risking their lives. This is a "feelings" argument. I feel that if a player puts the time into a clan and brings it to life, they should be rewarded with the competency that comes along with it.

Ironically, clan characters face a LOT more danger, without getting a corresponding benefit. That indie dwarf can pick and choose his battles (and a high percentage of those 'battles' will be with small, weak and exceedingly quick critters), whereas Legionary Amos had to follow his templar on another kryl hunt and hope he doesn't get paralyzed and raped. It's the same for other clans, like the Militia, Salarr, Kurac, Byn, etc. Gee, Sarge, we're going mek hunting? Couldn't we just hunt jozhal this one time, please? Then we'd get really good at killing stuff!

You can get around these problems, by and large, if you have a leader in your clan who knows what the deal is, and lets people train appropriately.  E.g. instead of group-ganking that mob, let people take turns soloing it.  Great time to practice rescue, as well.  If someone's facerolling it, tell them to back off and let someone else have a go.  Have your defensive guy tank it and let the noobs play with the pinata.  Etc. etc.

Perfect example of how the current system favors those with years of metaknowledge. I am one of those guys. And I have been that leader in the past. But I hate it. I hate it so much. It makes me feel dirty. At the same time, I'd rather be dirty than dead.

None of these concerns are anything magickers have to deal with. If you're not outright abusing your powers as a gicker (summoning multiple people into the silt sea on a whim) you basically can't 'twink'.

[Synthesis]

You can get around these problems, by and large, if you have a leader in your clan who knows what the deal is, and lets people train appropriately.  E.g. instead of group-ganking that mob, let people take turns soloing it.  Great time to practice rescue, as well.  If someone's facerolling it, tell them to back off and let someone else have a go.  Have your defensive guy tank it and let the noobs play with the pinata.  Etc. etc.

This is exactly the type behavior that I hate in the game.  Treating the wilds like a training grounds instead of a place with real danger where anything could happen.  I hate hate HATE that the code rewards this type of behavior.

Eh, well.  In a skill-based RPI, everywhere is a training ground, and nowhere is.  If you can't invent plausible reasons to get into circumstances where you would become more skilled, then I guess your character shouldn't be skilled.

I kind of like the fact that you have to go out into the wilderness, because contrary to popular belief in this thread, it -is- vastly more dangerous than training in a stupid sparring hall.  There's no amount of witty banter and juvenile sex jokes that can thrill more than nearly getting steamrolled by a carru or having a tembo go all Terminator on your ass across the Known World.  For my 2 fucking amazing combat PCs, I have 81 dead ones that really weren't shit.

Everyone's claiming "roleplay" and "realism," but the fact of the matter is that the real driving force is folks want it to be easier to be a legitimate badass.  If you cared so much about roleplay, you wouldn't give a shit what your skill level said.