Water: Nobles vs Commoners

[Snowbunny]

Here's a simple question I've been wondering for a while.. I know that Desert Elves have a larger tolerance to water than humans. But I was wondering if there would be a difference between Nobles and commoners? As I would think a commoner would have adapted to the lack of water whereas the noble is used to having it with them all the time, no? I'd like to hear you ideas, thanks.

[Dakkon Black]

NO no and absolutely no. Maybe Lord Fancy pants likes to keep his mouth wet and therefore in 6 million years may evolve into a species that requires more water. D-Elves have VERY different physiologies. And because the poor rinthi that lives off the moisture on the building in the morning gets less doesnt mean he needs less. At least not till hes evolved over millions of years. And thats what D-elves have allready done.

[X-D]

thousands of years

[Dakkon Black]

Thousands of years because its fantasy and because its magical. In RL not a chance.

[Callisto]

The difference between a line of noble blooded humans and a line of common blooded humans could be similar to the difference between a tribe of desert elves and a tribe of city elves.

Is it likely? I don't think so, but certainly possible.

[X-D]

Not a chance Dakkon? And yet homosapians, humans as we know them have evolved in only the last 50 thousand years....thats a far cry from millions.

[Carnage]

Not a chance Dakkon? And yet homosapians, humans as we know them have evolved in only the last 50 thousand years....thats a far cry from millions.

Not quite. Homo sapiens evolved from hominids, which were a mix of primates and humans (a piece of the evolutionary chain from primate to homo sapien). The earliest dated fossil of a hominid is four million years. Lucy, the oldest hominid skeleton, is 3.2 million years old.

My source:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do74lu.html

So yes, millions of years which is a very long time.

[X-D]

Of course, you would be correct if I had said anything about hominids, which, I did not, or even anything in between lucy and present man, in the time between that skeleton and homo sapians how many other species has there been?  

We are not talking about the evolution of  tregil to halfling to dwarf to elf to human, but instead a very small jump.

50k years ago (aprox) homosapians evolved, in that time they spread over the planet and EVOLVED into the separate races we have today, these races are adapted for the environments they lived in. And the differences are quite large considering the time span.


And evolution on zalanthas would happen far faster then earth, the environment is far harsher, the rate of mutation many many times higher.
Evolution happens at a rather slow rate, normaly it has a hard time even keeping up with planetary seasonal changes that happen over tens of thousands of years, but throw in a few mutations and thats like a spark to gasoline.

I think that nobles would have a lower tolorance for going without water, but not through an evolved or un-evolved reason but instead because they're minds and bodies would not be trained for it.

[Forest Junkie]

What was the original topic?...oh YEAH!!!

Well, as far as I'm concerned, there should be no water tolerance diff. b/w nobles and commoners. I think there would be only miniscule differences, if any.

Hope that helps.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4 <---- That link is for anyone who wants to continue their intellectual debate as to what humans evolved from and how long ago it was.

[Carnage]

50k years ago (aprox) homosapians evolved, in that time they spread over the planet and EVOLVED into the separate races we have today, these races are adapted for the environments they lived in. And the differences are quite large considering the time span.

Yeah, but that sort of thing is a minute cosmetic change that certainly doesn't have as big of a physiological change as people needing various amoutns of water. It's not evolving into separate races either as much as various tribes having certain features. If I breed a person with large teeth and a small mouth together to create a child with buckteeth, and then have them breed with other people with buckteeth, is that REALLY a matter of evolution or just simply a family having similar characteristics? Three generations and I can have my own 'race', as you put it.

Usage Note: The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populationsCaucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoidare now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive. (Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean "white" or "European" rather than "belonging to the Caucasian race," a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.) The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other pointssuch as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in anothermany cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact.

Calling a group of people a 'race' is a vague way of saying what you want to. It's not very scientific, as someone with a different color of skin is genetically about as different as someone with a different shade of hair.

[X-D]

A minute cosmetic change yes, but a change none the less, and an evolved one at that and over a short period of time.

Now, the human body itself is capable of making changes to adapt to extremes also, these changes include temperature regulation, water conservation and being able to increase lung capacity and blood flow, the plus the ability of the blood to transport oxygen, You can take a person born at low altitude and raise them at a very high altitude and they will develope a larger lung capacity a larger heart expanded major blood vessels, a much higher red blood cell count and more to adapt to the lower pressure/oxygen. But they will not develope it to the same extreme as the peoples who have been living there for a few thousand years, those people have evolved, maybe only a tiny bit but that tiny bit makes them much more fit to live in that area then somebody not of that particular gene pool.

There is a moth, a wood moth that used to be a basicly light brown color but over the course of just 100 years or less evolved to have a darker color to match the pollution darkened bark of trees, this is an evolved change to survive, nothing evolves without an outside pressure to do (barring mutation) so, this same moth is starting to become lighter again because the pollution levels have been dropping and the bark of the trees where it lives is lightening again.

Now, knowing all of that one then has to go to the arm docs.

Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Now, something I wrote before.

I think that nobles would have a lower tolorance for going without water, but not through an evolved or un-evolved reason but instead because they're minds and bodies would not be trained for it

Your dictionary definition basicly stated that pretty much no real agreement has been reached on the topic of race except with "culteral anthropologists" and even they say the "consider" it to be "more of"
Even they make no defined statement of fact.

A fact that cannot be argued is that every single culture/race from particular climates have some things in common, and these things will breed true with them, these changes evolved over many generations to help with succesful breeding and survival in these climates.

The human race on earth scientists think started in africa, and probobly looked much like the Australoidare, then the human race began spreading across the globe and adapting to environments much different from where they started, the changes may be tiny, but if you are looking for a mate when lifespans are short and child mortality high, are you going to pick someone is is just basicly healthy or somebody who is very healthy?

In a hunter gatherer sociaty A black man has distinct disadvantage through half the year in siberia, just as a white man from siberia has a distinct disadvantage in the deserts of africa all year round.

On Zalanthas, A noble, with all the power and privilage they have and with the fact that they for the most part only breed with each other, Would NEED more water then a commoner, as I said before, simply because they were used to more water.

[Carnage]

Before this goes on anymore, I've got one question for you X-D: Have you ever conceded to a debate on the GDB and admitted you were wrong?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Although I believe that the world has only been around for just over six thousand years, and that evolution, as many of you regard it, is a false and stupid concept, my addition to this subject will still have bearing.

In the various divisions of the race known as human, in the real world, there are levels of tolerance and intolerance specific to each type of human. Dark people in general, have more resistance to skin cancer, sun burn and other sun-related deseases than other types of races, due to the increased melantone present in their skins. Each race has its edge. However, they are all the same race.

Therefore, I find it a valid argument that noble families would need more water than commoners, since over centuries, they have lived a more stabgle and pampered life. However, how valid this is to be converted into an in-game feature is the matter for debate.

[Rindan]

Not to be down play anyone, but who cares?  Perhaps if Allanak is taken over by the North and all the nobles flee into the desert it might be an issue.  Outside of that though, I don't see what the point is.  If you are a noble it is going to take some serious effort on your part to die of dehydration.  I just don't see the point of using the code to make up a new race just so that they can have nobles have higher water need.  Truth be told, it would just be a marginally higher water need.  The difference between human races is very small.  VERY small.  There is more variation between people within the same race then there is between races.  So, there are more differences between two random white people then there is between the average white person and average black person.  The differences really come down to increased pigment production.  We are talking about a few genes switched on such that one product is produced in higher quantities.  It isn't a big difference.  It is the difference between having acne and not having acne, or having blond hair or brown hair.  It is pocket change.  The differences are cosmetic.  It is like the Smith family all having square heads.  It probably doesn't even hold an advantage.  It is just something common to a people with similar ancestry.  We only pick up on it because our brains are rigged with truly sick pattern recognition software when it comes to viewing other humans.

Commoners have not developed any new organs that a nobles doesn't have.  Maybe they produce some protein that all humans have in a greater or lesser amount which might result in a minor alteration as to how much water they need.  Whatever the case, if there is a difference, it is very small.  Just because we need something doesn't mean we get.  A pigment switch is a quick and easy thing for humans.  It is a few genes and it doesn't have a terrible impact on us.  Finding a new and elaborate way to make a human need a noticeably less amount of water is a much trickery deal.  I imagine that while it is true a commoner might need less water then a noble, it has far more to do with their life style then anything else.  I need more food then a starving Ethiopian.  That difference has nothing to do with or race.  It is just how we were raised.  So, in summery, who cares?

[Forest Junkie]

Wow. A post that's on topic. Huzzah, Venomz!

I must disagree, though. IMO, just because nobles drink more water than commoners, and lead a pampered life, does not mean that they'd need MORE water. In fact, since they are probably more healthy because they drink more water, it could be fair to assume that THEY do not need as much water as commoners.

Another thought: have nobles really been apart of the Zalanthian culture for thousands of years for this "adaptation" to occur?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I can see how someone would care hypothetically. However, I agree with you when you say that it is not a big deal at all when regarding our playing experience. Armageddon can benefit far more from some other forms of coding, rather than accounting for another type of human. But the discussion, regardless, is interesting.

[Rindan]

Another thing to point out is that while commoner genes might not go into noble families, they do come out of them fairly often.  With nobles tendency to screw commoners it is probably safe to say that most commoners have some noble blood in them.

[Forest Junkie]

I fold. This conversation is getting -WAY- too analytical for me.

Ow, my brain hurts.

[Socko]

Making nobles a whole 'nother "race" as it were is iffy in itself.. but if it wasn't so extreme as to become a breed of human, it's plausible.

It's not like they're an endangered breed of human protected by Smoky the Dragon's wasteland conservation team.