Languages and the Way

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I agree, psi (emotional emote) <message> would be ideal.  With the emote being language neutral, the message being language based.

[Tetra]

100% agree with the 'psi emote' concept.

100% disagree with language barriers in the Way.

[Beethoven]

I think the Way circumventing language barriers makes perfect sense. (I also prefer it when people drop their 'accents' or speech impediments when they use it.)

However, as much sense as it makes...I would still prefer if it didn't work that way. The RP around translators and the like is so much better.

[bardlyone]

100% agree with the 'psi emote' concept.

100% disagree with language barriers in the Way.

This.

[wizturbo]

Regardless of the outcome of some metaphysical debate on whether or not the mind has its own language or not, I think making language barriers a real thing in-game would add a lot of potential for cool role play.

[Tetra]

I think the Way circumventing language barriers makes perfect sense. (I also prefer it when people drop their 'accents' or speech impediments when they use it.)

However, as much sense as it makes...I would still prefer if it didn't work that way. The RP around translators and the like is so much better.

It does seem like a nifty thing to add to the game.

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

Regardless of the outcome of some metaphysical debate on whether or not the mind has its own language or not, I think making language barriers a real thing in-game would add a lot of potential for cool role play.

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

[Beethoven]

More people will probably play linguists and translators if this change is made, which will make it easier for those groups to interact.

[wizturbo]

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

While I don't find the metaphysical discussion surrounding this to be particularly valuable, I would say that using the Way is hardly some kind of amazing psychic technique in a world where there are psionicists that can do truly terrifying things with their minds.  You're sending a one-way message, with considerable mental strain to do so.  You aren't spilling your innermost thoughts into the persons's mind, or melding with them like a vulcan...  You're just sending a telegraph.

[wizturbo]

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

I really disagree here.  Having to find a translator would make that scene way more interesting in my opinion.   This situation would, for instance, make that usually worthless half breed sitting in the corner suddenly useful.

It would also incentivize you to learn Allundean, so you can trade with these elves without a translator, which might make you a more effective merchant than the one who cannot speak Allundean.

[slvrmoontiger]

I'm a bit confused on the OP's side of things on this.

The Way links thoughts not words. Intelligent beings all think in the same sort of manner. I imagine the Way as sending pictures back and forth. Pictures are universal. If I send the picture of a ginka fruit it's going to be a picture of a ginka fruit no matter who sees it.

Languages are formed in words. Ginka in Sirihish is an entirely different word in Allundean for instance.

Having said this, I think two people that speak two different languages could communicate completely and accurately using the Way.

[Tetra]

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

While I don't find the metaphysical discussion surrounding this to be particularly valuable, I would say that using the Way is hardly some kind of amazing psychic technique in a world where there are psionicists that can do truly terrifying things with their minds.  You're sending a one-way message, with considerable mental strain to do so.  You aren't spilling your innermost thoughts into the persons's mind, or melding with them like a vulcan...  You're just sending a telegraph.

The discussion is worth having.  That's like saying gasoline is unimportant to driving a car; obviously its just a game and not real, but to design something in a manner that is contrary to its actual intended nature is backwards.


A psychic link is like melding your mind with someone else, even if it's amateurish and fleeting.

I'd argue you are absolutely sending a thought.  I'm actually a little shocked that you disagree.  Thoughts precede verbalization, and language is verbalization.

[Tetra]

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

I really disagree here.  Having to find a translator would make that scene way more interesting in my opinion.   This situation would, for instance, make that usually worthless half breed sitting in the corner suddenly useful.

It would also incentivize you to learn Allundean, so you can trade with these elves without a translator, which might make you a more effective merchant than the one who cannot speak Allundean.

On paper what you are saying sounds lovely.  In reality though, how many people are actually going to stop in the game and say, "Okay, let me listen to people talk a language of a race I hate for IC months, so I can interact with that dirty sharp, who is definitely going to steal from me.  Or I can pay hundreds of sid for a teacher to learn allundean when I would have no real IC reason to..."

The short answer is, basically nobody does that.  Because it adds unnecessary effort.

And any smart person who would want to deal with an elf in the first place is almost certainly not going to trust a third-party/breed/elf to make the negotiation favourable for them.

[Beethoven]

It's unrealistic either way, IMO. If the Way is sending raw thoughts, then it shouldn't be treated as precise verbal communication, which it is. It would be a lot more abstract. The way the Way is used does not really scream "direct transfer of thoughts" to me, but the way it is being used now is the way it is intended to be used. I'm fine with it.

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that you are just, as you said, 'magicking words' into people's minds.

Of the two unrealistic options, I choose the one that I believe presents the most interesting RP opportunities.

[Rathustra]

Your inner monologue != your thoughts. This is the basis of CBT.

edit: Also this is moot as the Way is whatever we want it to be. The best thing about about Fantasy/soft sci-fi is we can easily write something plausible to support any system we can imagine. 

[Tetra]

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that you are just, as you said, 'magicking words' into people's minds.

Magick isn't real.  Of course it's unrealistic.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Tetra and say: Psionics IS a language. If you are able to way someone, then you can speak the language of psionics. The code already covers your fluency by way of stun drain. I wouldn't mind a more intricate stun-drain system based on species. If you're communicating with your own species, the stun drain might be however it is now. If you're communicating with a different species, the drain would be more significant.

[Beethoven]

I figured someone was going to say "it's not realistic because there is no magick/are no psionics" thing. I think everyone can tell what I mean. It's not realistic in the context of the game world's established reality.

[Tetra]

I agree with Tetra and say: Psionics IS a language. If you are able to way someone, then you can speak the language of psionics. The code already covers your fluency by way of stun drain. I wouldn't mind a more intricate stun-drain system based on species. If you're communicating with your own species, the stun drain might be however it is now. If you're communicating with a different species, the drain would be more significant.

I think this stun-vs-race idea makes sense(though again, more barriers, no pun intended).  The stun would be reduced based on your contact skill.

At (master), the stun would be flat for all races?

I figured someone was going to say "it's not realistic because there is no magick/are no psionics" thing. I think everyone can tell what I mean. It's not realistic in the context of the game world's established reality.

I mean in an OOC sense, it would seem a little hokey. 

Like, okay....Able to create psychic link with my mind across the Known World with someone's mind...But totally unable to relate to their mental monologue because physical words.

It doesn't correlate with the ability logistically.

[wizturbo]

My argument on this is:

Language barriers are cool, having the Way bypass them (and be available to everyone) isn't as engaging or fun.

Secondary to this argument, is the metaphysical discussion.  The outcome of the metaphysical discussion is far less interesting or important than the first argument in my opinion.  I'd much rather we focus on the fun/engagement of language barriers than our own personal interpretation of how the Way works.

[Beethoven]

I agree with wizturbo on this.

[Tetra]

My argument on this is:

Language barriers are cool, having the Way bypass them (and be available to everyone) isn't as engaging or fun.

Secondary to this argument, is the metaphysical discussion.  The outcome of the metaphysical discussion is far less interesting or important than the first argument in my opinion.  I'd much rather we focus on the fun/engagement of language barriers than our own personal interpretation of how the Way works.

I'm sorry, lol, but I just can't.

Integrity with the lore is important.  Sorcerers are hated by everyone and hunted -- that may not be fun for people who play them, but it holds continuity with the setting.

I'm saying that language barriers are not cool(at all, actually, they are very annoying).

Enforcing them into the Way is not only a waste of staff resource/time, but does not support roleplay.  Actually, it hinders it.   It might be fun for you to communicate with extra difficulty, but it is definitely not for me and a lot of other people.

The point of the metaphysics is simply to illustrate that what you are asking to change is completely out of line with the skill.  I'm not bringing it up for intellectual exposition and the good of my health.


tldr;  They are not separate arguments, they are the same.  I'm only approaching it from the world setting angle.  You are approaching it from OOCly perceived fun(which is dubious at best).

[Beethoven]

I might care about the whole metaphysics angle more if the way people used it now did not already seem so very verbal, anyway.

[Patuk]

Lots of bad arguments on both sides here.

[wizturbo]

Okay, thanks for your opinion Tetra.  Let's see what other people have to say.

[Tetra]

I mean...This is a straw man fallacy.  I provide very reasonable and clear ideas as to why language would be invalid via the Way.  Reasons that are generally sympatico with documentation or any sort of concept of psionics in Zalanthas or another fantasy setting similar.

But you find it irrelevant and unimportant, all the while providing no points to refute their validity.  Because you think it's fun to struggle to communicate with others in a RPI with a finite population.

Really, think about that for a minute.