Languages and the Way

[wizturbo]

IMO, the Way is communicating thoughts and psychic impressions, not just verbal sentences.  So in theory, you can express things with much more intricacy than you could by word of mouth.

Also, that would probably depend on your PCs intelligence score and some prior life experience.

I wish the Way was different, and was actually linked to a language.  I don't like the idea that you can have in depth communications with someone who doesn't speak your language through the Way.  I mean, I guess I'd be fine with Waying someone who doesn't speak your language but the interaction should be equivalent to emotional pantomime.  psi *fear towards violence, peaceful intentions*.   Stuff like that.

[Delirium]

It would make translators and the ability to speak another language far more valuable.

Which is a major plus, in my eyes.

[Desertman]

^^^

Had never considered. +1

[Narf]

It would make translators and the ability to speak another language far more valuable.

Which is a major plus, in my eyes.

Be nice to make linguists more than just a flavor role.

[Delirium]

Which also makes desert elves and tribals the exotic, strange creatures they actually should be, and if you hope to have favorable communication with them, you ought to take along someone who speaks their language and knows their culture... instead of just popping into their head with a psi and a how-d'ye-do.

[Marauder Moe]

So much +1

[valeria]

I enjoy the idea, except the part about being able to communicate emotions.  I feel like if that's something people can actually do over the Way it should be a separate, coded thing.

[Harmless]

+1, though technically nothing is stopping us from enforcing these kinds of restrictions on our RP ourselves, it'd still be nice to have it coded.

[KankWhisperer]

I enjoy the idea, except the part about being able to communicate emotions.  I feel like if that's something people can actually do over the Way it should be a separate, coded thing.

I think limiting ways to exact words like a text msg would mean you need to know the same language. I figure emotions can be like an emoticon?

[Narf]

+1, though technically nothing is stopping us from enforcing these kinds of restrictions on our RP ourselves, it'd still be nice to have it coded.

Gross confusion amongst the playerbase at what the heck your character is talking about when they say they can't way that elf. You need some sort of mutual agreement before you start playing this way or people will just assume your character is weirdly crippled or insane.

Also, you have no way of knowing what languages the person you're waying speaks or understands (or how well).

[Marauder Moe]

Regardless of whether or not there is a change to how the Way works with languages, I think a command emote syntax is a great idea.

Code Select Expand

>psi (<emotion>) Message.

[KankWhisperer]

Regardless of whether or not there is a change to how the Way works with languages, I think a command emote syntax is a great idea.

Code Select Expand

>psi (<emotion>) Message.

Maybe just simple one word emotion recommended.

[Harmless]

+1, though technically nothing is stopping us from enforcing these kinds of restrictions on our RP ourselves, it'd still be nice to have it coded.

Gross confusion amongst the playerbase at what the heck your character is talking about when they say they can't way that elf. You need some sort of mutual agreement before you start playing this way or people will just assume your character is weirdly crippled or insane.

Also, you have no way of knowing what languages the person you're waying speaks or understands (or how well).

What you're describing is true, but it's also a classic example of something that tends to irk me -- people who RP to "win" and not for realism. not saying you're one of those, just agreeing with you that people will be make those assumptions.

[KankWhisperer]

+1, though technically nothing is stopping us from enforcing these kinds of restrictions on our RP ourselves, it'd still be nice to have it coded.

Gross confusion amongst the playerbase at what the heck your character is talking about when they say they can't way that elf. You need some sort of mutual agreement before you start playing this way or people will just assume your character is weirdly crippled or insane.

Also, you have no way of knowing what languages the person you're waying speaks or understands (or how well).

What you're describing is true, but it's also a classic example of something that tends to irk me -- people who RP to "win" and not for realism. not saying you're one of those, just agreeing with you that people will be make those assumptions.

I think he's saying how do you know who ever isn't fluent also if you never met.

[Narf]

+1, though technically nothing is stopping us from enforcing these kinds of restrictions on our RP ourselves, it'd still be nice to have it coded.

Gross confusion amongst the playerbase at what the heck your character is talking about when they say they can't way that elf. You need some sort of mutual agreement before you start playing this way or people will just assume your character is weirdly crippled or insane.

Also, you have no way of knowing what languages the person you're waying speaks or understands (or how well).

What you're describing is true, but it's also a classic example of something that tends to irk me -- people who RP to "win" and not for realism. not saying you're one of those, just agreeing with you that people will be make those assumptions.

I think he's saying how do you know who ever isn't fluent also if you never met.

Yeah, what I said has almost nothing to do with powergaming. I think people will be terribly confused if you decide your character can't way people who speak different languages and that this is a normal thing.

Not upset at you for playing the game wrong, just confused.

And as I said, you might actually be playing the game wrong if you pretend you can't way someone because they can't speak sirihish... And they can.

[Harmless]

By telling them? I think that shouldn't be too hard, there'd be a bit of an awkward part at the start where people figure out what's going on, and it takes cooperation, but it could look something like this:

(Sirihish/Bendune fluent person contacting a Bendune only speaking tribal)

psi *In sirihish* Hello, you're the tribal I wanted to find.

The black-inked bald man sends you a telepathic message:
  "*Confused thoughts in Bendune come over the way.*"

psi *In bendune* ..I didn't quite get that. I learned Bendune on the caravan, so it isn't the best, could you repeat it?

The black-inked bald man sends you a telepathic message:

  "Sorry. I was unsure of who I spoke with. Glad we can communicate freely"

Again, a coded version is totally preferable over this, but this is still possible. After all, how often do people not share at least one language in common (sirihish)? Very, very rarely.

[Harmless]

Narf: People might be confused, but nothing is stopping you from refusing to do it if it's something you want to do. Over time, maybe more people will play along until it becomes canonized (or not). After all, nothing in the documentation states that the Way transcends language barriers, it's just become convention -- it could equally become convention that it doesn't, but it has to start with people willing to do it.

Judging by how many +1's this idea has, I am assuming this could become a new convention in a short amount of time.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.  It may not be explicitly documented, but it is explicitly coded that the Way ignores languages.  I don't really see how you can pretend otherwise, nor do I think it's a good method for bringing about staff/code changes.

[Harmless]

I find it funny that people simultaneously want something coded but choose not to just roleplay out what they want when it is definitely possible. Just because choosing to do something that is codedly possible confers obvious advantages -- anyway, that's not the point, the point here really is that most all of us agree this would be a cool code feature. Until then we'll just do what we want to in game.

[wizturbo]

I agree, psi (emotional emote) <message> would be ideal.  With the emote being language neutral, the message being language based.

[Delirium]

I find it funny that people simultaneously want something coded but choose not to just roleplay out what they want when it is definitely possible. Just because choosing to do something that is codedly possible confers obvious advantages -- anyway, that's not the point, the point here really is that most all of us agree this would be a cool code feature. Until then we'll just do what we want to in game.

In this case, it's because it means that you're breaking with the actual, coded reality of the game (which is that everyone can understand each other over the way) to try and enforce a non-documented, non-universally accepted roleplay standard which you think everyone else should abide by. People will just be confused and frustrated.

As much as I'd like to see this change, it needs to be canon before we start pretending it is canon.

As for how to implement it, I agree with the >psi (feel emote) message command.

[valeria]

I'd also love the command emote.  I wish it was already a thing, with or without the change to how languages work over the way.

[wizturbo]

I think having a language bonus over the Way could be appropriate. 

Like, if you're a journeyman in the language, perhaps your coded ability to speak would be closer to advanced, as the psionic medium is more forgiving on things like pronunciation.

There would also be no need for an accent over the Way, just like there's no accent in writings.

[Harmless]

I find it funny that people simultaneously want something coded but choose not to just roleplay out what they want when it is definitely possible. Just because choosing to do something that is codedly possible confers obvious advantages -- anyway, that's not the point, the point here really is that most all of us agree this would be a cool code feature. Until then we'll just do what we want to in game.

In this case, it's because it means that you're breaking with the actual, coded reality of the game (which is that everyone can understand each other over the way) to try and enforce a non-documented, non-universally accepted roleplay standard which you think everyone else should abide by. People will just be confused and frustrated.

As much as I'd like to see this change, it needs to be canon before we start pretending it is canon.

As for how to implement it, I agree with the >psi (feel emote) message command.

First off, I'm not trying to "enforce" anything, but I do think it should be an individual's choice whether or not to play out the coded ability to communicate across languages with the Way.

Imagine a very early form of armageddon where you had some players who wanted to play gith roles. As a gith then, it might have been coded to be able to go into the Gaj and hang out with others. Some players, however, might try their damnedest to counter this by hunting gith that did so.

Imagine that before crim code people would willingly self-enforce not just murdering people on the streets and getting away with it.

Imagine that before language code existed at all, people playing desert elves would choose not to speak publicly or to just whisper or speak in private to create a virtual language barrier.

The way I see it, if people want something and it can be emulated with RP, then there's nothing wrong with doing it. I'm not enforcing that anybody should do this, I'm just saying they can as is, and I personally think that they should be allowed to. After all, it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to get around it -- everybody knows an elf, or a tribal, so just contact them and ask them to do your Waying for you.

[Tetra]

To clarify, my initial statement is sort of counter to this idea of the Way being dependent on language.

Language is a learned convention -- and it involves association of thoughts, concepts, and meanings expressed in a physical capacity.  

The Way is not physical or linguistic.  It is psionic.  From an existential perspective, thought is magnetic and ephemeral.  It transcends language specifically because it is not linguistic, but psychic(the paradox here is that it is still a mode of communicating, which makes it a language, albeit functioning entirely different).

That means you may not share a vernacular, but you should absolutely be able to communicate with someone who cannot speak your language.  That is the inherent benefit of Waying, because it depends on your willpower and your mind, not peripheral and cultural conditioning.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I agree, psi (emotional emote) <message> would be ideal.  With the emote being language neutral, the message being language based.

[Tetra]

100% agree with the 'psi emote' concept.

100% disagree with language barriers in the Way.

[Beethoven]

I think the Way circumventing language barriers makes perfect sense. (I also prefer it when people drop their 'accents' or speech impediments when they use it.)

However, as much sense as it makes...I would still prefer if it didn't work that way. The RP around translators and the like is so much better.

[bardlyone]

100% agree with the 'psi emote' concept.

100% disagree with language barriers in the Way.

This.

[wizturbo]

Regardless of the outcome of some metaphysical debate on whether or not the mind has its own language or not, I think making language barriers a real thing in-game would add a lot of potential for cool role play.

[Tetra]

I think the Way circumventing language barriers makes perfect sense. (I also prefer it when people drop their 'accents' or speech impediments when they use it.)

However, as much sense as it makes...I would still prefer if it didn't work that way. The RP around translators and the like is so much better.

It does seem like a nifty thing to add to the game.

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

Regardless of the outcome of some metaphysical debate on whether or not the mind has its own language or not, I think making language barriers a real thing in-game would add a lot of potential for cool role play.

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

[Beethoven]

More people will probably play linguists and translators if this change is made, which will make it easier for those groups to interact.

[wizturbo]

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

While I don't find the metaphysical discussion surrounding this to be particularly valuable, I would say that using the Way is hardly some kind of amazing psychic technique in a world where there are psionicists that can do truly terrifying things with their minds.  You're sending a one-way message, with considerable mental strain to do so.  You aren't spilling your innermost thoughts into the persons's mind, or melding with them like a vulcan...  You're just sending a telegraph.

[wizturbo]

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

I really disagree here.  Having to find a translator would make that scene way more interesting in my opinion.   This situation would, for instance, make that usually worthless half breed sitting in the corner suddenly useful.

It would also incentivize you to learn Allundean, so you can trade with these elves without a translator, which might make you a more effective merchant than the one who cannot speak Allundean.

[slvrmoontiger]

I'm a bit confused on the OP's side of things on this.

The Way links thoughts not words. Intelligent beings all think in the same sort of manner. I imagine the Way as sending pictures back and forth. Pictures are universal. If I send the picture of a ginka fruit it's going to be a picture of a ginka fruit no matter who sees it.

Languages are formed in words. Ginka in Sirihish is an entirely different word in Allundean for instance.

Having said this, I think two people that speak two different languages could communicate completely and accurately using the Way.

[Tetra]

But it would be very hard for me to take seriously.  If Zalanthans evolved to adapt psionic techniques, why would those techniques be bound by physical limitations like language?

Basically, it wouldn't be psychic at all.  It would just be magicking your voice into someone's head.

While I don't find the metaphysical discussion surrounding this to be particularly valuable, I would say that using the Way is hardly some kind of amazing psychic technique in a world where there are psionicists that can do truly terrifying things with their minds.  You're sending a one-way message, with considerable mental strain to do so.  You aren't spilling your innermost thoughts into the persons's mind, or melding with them like a vulcan...  You're just sending a telegraph.

The discussion is worth having.  That's like saying gasoline is unimportant to driving a car; obviously its just a game and not real, but to design something in a manner that is contrary to its actual intended nature is backwards.


A psychic link is like melding your mind with someone else, even if it's amateurish and fleeting.

I'd argue you are absolutely sending a thought.  I'm actually a little shocked that you disagree.  Thoughts precede verbalization, and language is verbalization.

[Tetra]

By that same reasoning, it also limits a lot of cool roleplay.

Example: Desert elf comes into city to trade with me, but only speaks allundean.  All of a sudden, my human can't be conned, roleplay, or interact with them.  That group is already heavily isolated, why make it even more difficult to interact.

We should be finding ways to facilitate more roleplay, not adding barriers to it.

I really disagree here.  Having to find a translator would make that scene way more interesting in my opinion.   This situation would, for instance, make that usually worthless half breed sitting in the corner suddenly useful.

It would also incentivize you to learn Allundean, so you can trade with these elves without a translator, which might make you a more effective merchant than the one who cannot speak Allundean.

On paper what you are saying sounds lovely.  In reality though, how many people are actually going to stop in the game and say, "Okay, let me listen to people talk a language of a race I hate for IC months, so I can interact with that dirty sharp, who is definitely going to steal from me.  Or I can pay hundreds of sid for a teacher to learn allundean when I would have no real IC reason to..."

The short answer is, basically nobody does that.  Because it adds unnecessary effort.

And any smart person who would want to deal with an elf in the first place is almost certainly not going to trust a third-party/breed/elf to make the negotiation favourable for them.

[Beethoven]

It's unrealistic either way, IMO. If the Way is sending raw thoughts, then it shouldn't be treated as precise verbal communication, which it is. It would be a lot more abstract. The way the Way is used does not really scream "direct transfer of thoughts" to me, but the way it is being used now is the way it is intended to be used. I'm fine with it.

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that you are just, as you said, 'magicking words' into people's minds.

Of the two unrealistic options, I choose the one that I believe presents the most interesting RP opportunities.

[Rathustra]

Your inner monologue != your thoughts. This is the basis of CBT.

edit: Also this is moot as the Way is whatever we want it to be. The best thing about about Fantasy/soft sci-fi is we can easily write something plausible to support any system we can imagine. 

[Tetra]

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that you are just, as you said, 'magicking words' into people's minds.

Magick isn't real.  Of course it's unrealistic.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Tetra and say: Psionics IS a language. If you are able to way someone, then you can speak the language of psionics. The code already covers your fluency by way of stun drain. I wouldn't mind a more intricate stun-drain system based on species. If you're communicating with your own species, the stun drain might be however it is now. If you're communicating with a different species, the drain would be more significant.

[Beethoven]

I figured someone was going to say "it's not realistic because there is no magick/are no psionics" thing. I think everyone can tell what I mean. It's not realistic in the context of the game world's established reality.

[Tetra]

I agree with Tetra and say: Psionics IS a language. If you are able to way someone, then you can speak the language of psionics. The code already covers your fluency by way of stun drain. I wouldn't mind a more intricate stun-drain system based on species. If you're communicating with your own species, the stun drain might be however it is now. If you're communicating with a different species, the drain would be more significant.

I think this stun-vs-race idea makes sense(though again, more barriers, no pun intended).  The stun would be reduced based on your contact skill.

At (master), the stun would be flat for all races?

I figured someone was going to say "it's not realistic because there is no magick/are no psionics" thing. I think everyone can tell what I mean. It's not realistic in the context of the game world's established reality.

I mean in an OOC sense, it would seem a little hokey. 

Like, okay....Able to create psychic link with my mind across the Known World with someone's mind...But totally unable to relate to their mental monologue because physical words.

It doesn't correlate with the ability logistically.

[wizturbo]

My argument on this is:

Language barriers are cool, having the Way bypass them (and be available to everyone) isn't as engaging or fun.

Secondary to this argument, is the metaphysical discussion.  The outcome of the metaphysical discussion is far less interesting or important than the first argument in my opinion.  I'd much rather we focus on the fun/engagement of language barriers than our own personal interpretation of how the Way works.

[Beethoven]

I agree with wizturbo on this.

[Tetra]

My argument on this is:

Language barriers are cool, having the Way bypass them (and be available to everyone) isn't as engaging or fun.

Secondary to this argument, is the metaphysical discussion.  The outcome of the metaphysical discussion is far less interesting or important than the first argument in my opinion.  I'd much rather we focus on the fun/engagement of language barriers than our own personal interpretation of how the Way works.

I'm sorry, lol, but I just can't.

Integrity with the lore is important.  Sorcerers are hated by everyone and hunted -- that may not be fun for people who play them, but it holds continuity with the setting.

I'm saying that language barriers are not cool(at all, actually, they are very annoying).

Enforcing them into the Way is not only a waste of staff resource/time, but does not support roleplay.  Actually, it hinders it.   It might be fun for you to communicate with extra difficulty, but it is definitely not for me and a lot of other people.

The point of the metaphysics is simply to illustrate that what you are asking to change is completely out of line with the skill.  I'm not bringing it up for intellectual exposition and the good of my health.


tldr;  They are not separate arguments, they are the same.  I'm only approaching it from the world setting angle.  You are approaching it from OOCly perceived fun(which is dubious at best).

[Beethoven]

I might care about the whole metaphysics angle more if the way people used it now did not already seem so very verbal, anyway.

[Patuk]

Lots of bad arguments on both sides here.

[wizturbo]

Okay, thanks for your opinion Tetra.  Let's see what other people have to say.

[Tetra]

I mean...This is a straw man fallacy.  I provide very reasonable and clear ideas as to why language would be invalid via the Way.  Reasons that are generally sympatico with documentation or any sort of concept of psionics in Zalanthas or another fantasy setting similar.

But you find it irrelevant and unimportant, all the while providing no points to refute their validity.  Because you think it's fun to struggle to communicate with others in a RPI with a finite population.

Really, think about that for a minute.

[HavokBlue]

I think needing someone to translate could be neat.

I also think playability trumps this. Realistically, this solely has to do with interactions between humans and desert elves. I don't want to be PK'd by a desert elf because my Charades skill wasn't high enough and I couldn't figure out what he wanted me to do while raiding me. I don't want another reason to limit my interactions with a desert elf to >shoot elf west because neither of us can communicate and it's 3AM so the odds of finding a translator in the middle of fuck-all nowhere Red Desert Land are slim to none.

[Patuk]

I'm just gonna sum up the argument of every post from here on out now, it's 1 am and I'm too sleep deprived for subtlety or social grace.

I mean...This is a straw man fallacy.  I provide very reasonable and clear ideas as to why language would be invalid via the Way.  Reasons that are generally sympatico with documentation or any sort of concept of psionics in Zalanthas or another fantasy setting similar.

But you find it irrelevant and unimportant, all the while providing no points to refute their validity.  Because you think it's fun to struggle to communicate with others in a RPI with a finite population.

Really, think about that for a minute.

'my side yay fun, so theirs must boo fun'

Something tells me wizturbo wants to pick the most fun of the two options as much as you do, and telling people he's deliberately trying to ruin things is just mean-spirited.

[Tetra]

Something tells me wizturbo wants to pick the most fun of the two options as much as you do, and telling people he's deliberately trying to ruin things is just mean-spirited.

I'm not saying anyone is ruining anything, and certainly not wizturbo.  I just think if you open a discussion, you can't insist on a mechanical change that flies in the face of a world setting -- just because you personally find it fun.

Cool, fun is great.  But have it make sense first.

[Patuk]

If you'll look at Rathustra's post, you may notice staff doesn't especially care either way. The Way's manner of working doesn't affect too much on a grand scale, and should anyone ask why thinfs are as they are right now, Rath's response would be, 'because we say they are.'

Now, I'm fine with either position, but wanting to change things up is hardly 'flying in the face of everything' the way you described. The setting doesn't hinge on Waying being as it is right now. It may well have been an accident, something overlooked, or something some bored guy entered into the engine at 3 am before falling asleep.

So, if you want to argue that language isn't the same as psionics, fine. You can make lots of arguments of that kind. But don't tell people your position is more valid than the other because it supposedly makes way more sense and is much more important than the other person's point of view, because we have an administrator saying that it is not.

[wizturbo]

Something as fantastical as a psionic communication system is hardly a topic where we're going to all come to some agreement on how it works. Your metaphysical interpretation of how psionics works is different than mine, I think you're wrong,  you think I'm wrong...  Okay.  We're at an impasse.

How do we move past this impasse?  I think at that point, you start taking other things into consideration.  Such as the impact it has on the game. I think the most compelling argument to make is whether or not creating a language barrier on the Way would enhance the game.  I understand that to you the metaphysical/world setting should dictate game systems.  So to you, the metaphysical debate is extremely important because it should, naturally, decide how the game systems should be built.   But I disagree.  I think the world setting should be adapted to create the best play experience for everyone involved.  In this case, I think having translators and language barriers is cool, and would make the game more gritty and fun.  

HavocBlue's example of desert elf raiders killing someone because they cannot communicate with them in pantomime properly is a cool scene in my opinion.  I don't think the desert elves necessarily have to kill someone for not speaking their language properly, that seems pretty extreme to me, but the conflict from that lack of communication is compelling to me.  Others are welcome to disagree on that, and I'd welcome that debate.  But, as I said above, I don't really care to argue the metaphysical on this, because I don't see it as being actionable, nor do I expect any consensus.

[Tetra]

If you'll look at Rathustra's post, you may notice staff doesn't especially care either way. The Way's manner of working doesn't affect too much on a grand scale, and should anyone ask why thinfs are as they are right now, Rath's response would be, 'because we say they are.'

Now, I'm fine with either position, but wanting to change things up is hardly 'flying in the face of everything' the way you described. The setting doesn't hinge on Waying being as it is right now. It may well have been an accident, something overlooked, or something some bored guy entered into the engine at 3 am before falling asleep.

So, if you want to argue that language isn't the same as psionics, fine. You can make lots of arguments of that kind. But don't tell people your position is more valid than the other because it supposedly makes way more sense and is much more important than the other person's point of view, because we have an administrator saying that it is not.

The only person who claimed their argument was more important or 'more interesting' was wizturbo.  All I said was my point is relevant to the discussion.  Considering my comment started this thread I think it's entirely fair that I put it into context.

All I'm saying is that discussing how the Way operates is important if you're going to change or insert a coded communication penalty into it.   Does that not make sense?  

Rathustra clarified the difference between inner monologue and thoughts(they're intrinsically connected concepts).  It's a little pointed of you to insinuate bias in a comment that to me seemed entirely participatory.

[bcw81]

You know, I'm not normally the type of person to get into these debates, but I agree with Tetra on this. Linguists are plenty useful, and can definitely be hired. I once played a Rinthi Pickpocket/Linguist who was hired by a player to do his translating when he went to trade in Luir's. Shit was fun, I translated, and it was fun for everyone.

At the same point, having to find that one person who has subguild linguist to talk to someone from the tablelands for you would be excruciating. Especially if you're the person in the tablelands where you hardly get any interaction outside your tribe to begin with.

So no, I don't like the idea of language-based Way.

I do, however, like the command emotes added to way message idea. I always hate using *stars* and -dashes- to denote feelings in a way message because I feel like I shouldn't, even when the helpfile says it's okay.

[wizturbo]

At the same point, having to find that one person who has subguild linguist to talk to someone from the tablelands for you would be excruciating. Especially if you're the person in the tablelands where you hardly get any interaction outside your tribe to begin with.

Fair point, I don't think subguild linguist is the only source of Allundean though.  Elves, half-elves, linguists, and anyone whose taken the time to learn allundean have access to the skill.  Also, desert elves are perfectly capable of learning Sirihish.  Most do, in my experience.

[Tetra]

How do we move past this impasse?  I think at that point, you start taking other things into consideration.  Such as the impact it has on the game. I think the most compelling argument to make is whether or not creating a language barrier on the Way would enhance the game.  I understand that to you the metaphysical/world setting should dictate game systems.  So to you, the metaphysical debate is extremely important because it should, naturally, decide how the game systems should be built.   But I disagree.  I think the world setting should be adapted to create the best play experience for everyone involved.  In this case, I think having translators and language barriers is cool, and would make the game more gritty and fun.  

HavocBlue's example of desert elf raiders killing someone because they cannot communicate with them in pantomime properly is a cool scene in my opinion.  I don't think the desert elves necessarily have to kill someone for not speaking their language properly, that seems pretty extreme to me, but the conflict from that lack of communication is compelling to me.  Others are welcome to disagree on that, and I'd welcome that debate.  But, as I said above, I don't really care to argue the metaphysical on this, because I don't see it as being actionable, nor do I expect any consensus.

Even talking about the impact on the game, we are at an impasse.

You think being unable to talk to a raider and dying because communication barrier is fun.

VS

Being able to Way the raider, convincing him to let you go, tricking him, scaring him into thinking you're a magicker, and continuing to play the PC you invested days of your life developing.

Which do you think is more interactive and facilitates roleplay?  The communication barrier?  I'm worried for people who think the first option is better.

Maybe you play to have your beloved PCs die in frustrating and ridiculous ways, but plenty of people don't.


Really, if you ask yourself what is more immersive for roleplay the answer is obvious.

[Erythil]

I got to play a linguist in several situations where it was actually useful to act as an interpreter, and it was fun, but it does basically require that both sides avoid using the obvious and easy solutions.

That said, I think playability reasons is a good argument to keep things as they are.