Character Stats + Aging

[Malken]

Can we go back to discussing how terrible the stats aging system is, please? 

[Saellyn]

I am not okay with how stat aging progresses. It's very punishing.

[HavokBlue]

You either die a runner, or live long enough to see your stats degrade significantly.

[Malken]

I am not okay with how stat aging progresses. It's very punishing.

It just makes me want to go back to creating 26 years old only characters.

Each time a character of mine ages, I get a glint of excitement in my eyes at the thought of having some stats being driven out of the "poor" pool, only to face reality the minute I log in followed by a 24 hrs period on how I could suicide that character without Staff noticing it being a suicide  

and lol at HavokeBlue's post, so true.

(I'd even be OKAY with being able to trade one of my CGP for a stat reroll at this point) - If you play long lived characters from youth to old age, then you should have plenty of CGP to use up in your character's life, so that'd be a good trade.

Staff, what do you think about allowing CGPs to be used during a character's life for stat rerolls?

[Is Friday]

If you're so worried about stats, spec app for good stats.

[HavokBlue]

i thought its pretty common knowledge that stats dont matter and if you want to be good at combat you need to spar kryl bare handed with lots of rocks in your inv?

[Malken]

If you're so worried about stats, spec app for good stats.

If I were so worried about stats I wouldn't play the kind of characters I often play and you know it. What gets me is that you barely ever seen an improvement in stats when your character ages even though it's something that you're expecting to happen and it even says so in the docs.

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

I just want the character that starts very young to have the same stats average (as in they will get there by the time he is 25, not that he starts with the same stats average) as the guy that starts at the age of 25, and then keep it steady all the way to old age.

I don't think that's how it works at all currently.

I'm not going to start spending my special apps just because I want my younger (or much older) characters to have decent average stats, tsk.

[Jihelu]

i thought its pretty common knowledge that stats dont matter and if you want to be good at combat you need to spar kryl bare handed with lots of rocks in your inv?

You need BAGS of rocks in your inventory silly!

[KankWhisperer]

Can we go back to discussing how terrible the stats aging system is, please? 

I think they push back the start of aging ten years .

[Molten Heart]

i thought its pretty common knowledge that stats dont matter and if you want to be good at combat you need to spar kryl bare handed with lots of rocks in your inv?

You need BAGS of rocks in your inventory worn over each shoulder silly!

[Jihelu]

Bags of rocks...ROCKS EVERYWHERE.

[flurry]

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

I just want the character that starts very young to have the same stats average (as in they will get there by the time he is 25, not that he starts with the same stats average) as the guy that starts at the age of 25, and then keep it steady all the way to old age.

But how many characters have you aged from 15ish to 25ish since they changed how stat aging works (in 2008)? That takes about a year, so it's hard to judge stat aging based on personal experience. I've actually been a little surprised how little stats seem to change, although like everyone else, I'm looking at a very, very small sample size of characters who've aged a decade or so. I have not seen anything I would call "very punishing" but maybe that's later in life than I tend to play.

[Malken]

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

I just want the character that starts very young to have the same stats average (as in they will get there by the time he is 25, not that he starts with the same stats average) as the guy that starts at the age of 25, and then keep it steady all the way to old age.

But how many characters have you aged from 15ish to 25ish since they changed how stat aging works (in 2008)? That takes about a year, so it's hard to judge stat aging based on personal experience. I've actually been a little surprised how little stats seem to change, although like everyone else, I'm looking at a very, very small sample size of characters who've aged a decade or so. I have not seen anything I would call "very punishing" but maybe that's later in life than I tend to play.

Enough to know that unless they start rising at a much faster and bigger gap at a certain definitive time in your character's life, that many of my young characters would never come to average the stats my 25 years old characters tend to get in the end.

But that's for stats going up.. Stats going down have never been a problem for me to notice :/ From exceptional to extremely good to very good in 2-3 years?

[flurry]

Okay, well if you started a character at age 15 (or so) and played that out for a RL year or so, and did that more than once (since they changed how stats age), you probably have more anecdotal experience with this than I do.

If you care about stats, though (and I'm not saying you shouldn't), it seems like starting a character at the "best" stat age is only setting you up for disappointment. As your character's skills get better, their stats will be declining. Or maybe that's desirable for some reason I don't understand?

I don't know whether stat aging is working as intended, but I definitely agree that, regarding stats, characters should enjoy the benefits (or endure the hardships) of their current age, regardless of what their starting age was. If it doesn't work that way now, I hope it gets fixed. And hopefully anyone who sees signs that it's not working that way have shared that info with staff so that it can be fixed.

[Malken]

If you care about stats, though (and I'm not saying you shouldn't), it seems like starting a character at the "best" stat age is only setting you up for disappointment. As your character's skills get better, their stats will be declining. Or maybe that's desirable for some reason I don't understand?

Well, let's pretend that I'm starting a character at the age of 15, because I want some good reasons as to why he is terrible at what he does, because I want him to /steadily/ improves himself in life, find friends, grow up like we all do, live a real life.. I would also like for stats to sort of follow me along the path. I understand that if I start a character at the age of 15, by the time he is 25, if he survives, his skills should be really good, but his stats might not have followed along and that's kind of a bummer. Is it absolutely necessary that I have great stats to enjoy him? No, not at all, but again, just average stats would be nice. It's almost psychological, you know? Oh, look, my 15 year old guy is now 17 and he's a little stronger, a little wiser and he has a few more health points than before, that's good, he's improving his lot in life and improving physically as well!

But so far my experience is more something like..

Age 15 -

Str - Poor
End - Below Average
Wisdom - Poor
Agility - Exceptional
Health: 95

Age 16 -

Str - Poor
End - Below Average
Wisdom - Poor
Agility - Extremely Good
Health: 95

Age 17 -

Str - Poor
End - Below Average
Wisdom - Poor
Agility - Extremely Good
Health: 95

Age 18 -

Str - Below Average
End - Below Average
Wisdom - Poor
Agility - Very Good
Health: 95

It's just... Meh!

[flurry]

I think we agree about how it ought to work. I'm just not sure if it works that way or not, based on my own experience. 

[Harmless]

if that example is what actually happens, I can see how that'd be really, really frustrating. I think that in this case, a stat boost request should be fair, esp. if your character is actively trying to get stronger through roleplay.

[Armaddict]

if that example is what actually happens, I can see how that'd be really, really frustrating. I think that in this case, a stat boost request should be fair, esp. if your character is actively trying to get stronger through roleplay.

That example is incredibly extreme and on a timeline that is nowhere near comparable to how it behaves in the game.

[Malken]

if that example is what actually happens, I can see how that'd be really, really frustrating. I think that in this case, a stat boost request should be fair, esp. if your character is actively trying to get stronger through roleplay.

That example is incredibly extreme and on a timeline that is nowhere near comparable to how it behaves in the game.

Yeah, I like to think that I'm wrong about the agility part taking such a dive. Hopefully the starting point is wrong and it's just my code paranoia playing tricks on me.

Especially when you factor in the stat prioritization order as well.

[Lizzie]

Here's how I figure it happening (I don't know the actual numbers, I'm guessing and using a hypothetical to illustrate):

very poor   1-10
poor    11-20
below average   21-30
average   31-40
above average   41-50
good   51-60
very good   61-70
extremely good   71-80
exceptional   81-90
absolutely incredible   91-100

The above would be the range of "quality."

If you roll:

str   VG
agi  G
wis  BA
end  G

It -could- actually be:

str: 65
agi: 60
wis: 23
end: 51

So when you get a birthday you end up with

str: 66
agi: 61
wis: 24
end:  50

which results in:

str: VG
agi: VG
wis: BA
end: AA

As you can see - some of the *letter* attributes don't change, even if the *numerical* ones do. It's just that your initial roll put you at the higher end on one, the lower end on another, and right smack dab in the middle and any change to those stats will go up and down only one point, which might not result in a "letter" attribute change for several character years.

[Zoan]

You know who didn't get any less badass due to stats going down from age? This guy:

[Is Friday]

Dude does HGH. What do you expect?

[Zoan]

FoxDie!?

[Malken]

As you can see - some of the *letter* attributes don't change, even if the *numerical* ones do. It's just that your initial roll put you at the higher end on one, the lower end on another, and right smack dab in the middle and any change to those stats will go up and down only one point, which might not result in a "letter" attribute change for several character years.

Yeah, that's kinda also how I figured it'd work, but this sudden dive from one "letter" to another "letter" in the span of a couple of years is just insane. Meanwhile, everything is going up (if it even is) at a snail pace - Why is my health not even moving at all, too?

I guess only Staff could tell me if everything is working as it should be and I remember that Morgenes keeps saying that it is, but my own experience just makes me wary to create purely "role-play" characters anymore if I always get screwed by the aging system.

26, guys, 26.

[Zoan]

STOP ASKING QUESTIONS OR WE DOCK ZE KARMA

[Is Friday]

I tend to make young PCs because they're awesome. You just suck at the game, Malk. Get good noop.

[Malken]

STOP ASKING QUESTIONS OR WE DOCK ZE KARMA

MY KARMA IS LIKE MY PC'S AGILITY, IT TOOK A BIG DIVE WITHIN A TWO YEARS SPAN LOLOLOLOL

[Jihelu]

My agility is like my Karma.
It doesn't exist.

[Eyeball]

My impression is that stats increases from aging are very grudging.

Unfortunately we don't have access to the formula to prove that the average character starting at 25 will have better stats than the average character starting at 15 and reaching 25. So all we can do is argue.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you're so worried about stats, spec app for good stats.

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

How many characters have you played, because in my experience this isn't how it really works. I've had poor statted 28 year olds. And really good stats on young characters. Age effects stats but not nearly as much as randomness does.

I think stat ranges should be much more gradual. There's too much difference between Poor strength and AI strength.

[Malken]

If you're so worried about stats, spec app for good stats.

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

How many characters have you played, because in my experience this isn't how it really works. I've had poor statted 28 year olds. And really good stats on young characters. Age effects stats but not nearly as much as randomness does.

I think stat ranges should be much more gradual. There's too much difference between Poor strength and AI strength.

Nah, sorry, but I'm pretty sure (and it's not some sort of hidden code secret) that a 28 years old character will have MUCH better stats than a very young character. Age definitely affects stats more than randomness will.

(chargen even warns you when you create a new character that if you make it too young or too old your stats will suck something fierce)

How many characters have I played? Is that a joke or something?   Like.. Hundreds.

[Saellyn]

I can say with certainty that if you play a young character you can see a VERY significant drop in agility before you even hit your 20s.The system is not bugged, it's just a bit cruel to certain stats initially.

[solera]

I have had three teenagers (2x13)  and a 17 year old. I can't remember stats but I was happy with the improvement. I priotized their agility, and two were acrobats. Strength became respectable in the two semi combat ones.
When I had an over 60 (was she 70) I struggled briefly against staff ageism.   , but now I just see it as Life Sux.
Wisdom never improves. 

[Cind]

Its my experience that one thing affect sstats in a predictable way that hasn't been mentioned here yet, and I think its sort of IC to do so.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you're so worried about stats, spec app for good stats.

If you make a 25 years old character, you can often expect 2-3 stats to be at the very least in the very good to extremely good range, depending on what you play, but if you start your character at the lowest age possible, or even mid-15, it'll be a miracle if you're out of the below average in all stats, while your agility is dropping like flies by the time you are 25.

How many characters have you played, because in my experience this isn't how it really works. I've had poor statted 28 year olds. And really good stats on young characters. Age effects stats but not nearly as much as randomness does.

I think stat ranges should be much more gradual. There's too much difference between Poor strength and AI strength.

Nah, sorry, but I'm pretty sure (and it's not some sort of hidden code secret) that a 28 years old character will have MUCH better stats than a very young character. Age definitely affects stats more than randomness will.

(chargen even warns you when you create a new character that if you make it too young or too old your stats will suck something fierce)

How many characters have I played? Is that a joke or something?   Like.. Hundreds.

Hah, not a joke. I figured you might be the long-lived type with only 15 PC's or something like that. I agree that mid-range age is the best for even stats. But If I want to make a badass warrior with high strength you can bet your ass he's going to be over 40. If I want AI agility burglar I'm going to make him a teen.

[Malken]

But If I want to make a badass warrior with high strength you can bet your ass he's going to be over 40. If I want AI agility burglar I'm going to make him a teen.

I will too from now on and that's what kinda sucks. I will think stats first then creativity.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yep, it's stupid. I agree that age effects stat's too much. I just also think there's too much randomness with he rolls, and too much gap between AI and Poor.

[Patuk]

I know this thread is about age, I get that.

But can we please unlink endurance at least from height/weight?

I'd ask to remove all correlation between size and stats, but some people argue it makes sense for strength, agility and whatnot.

Fine, I say. Just scrap it for endurance at least. If stats and size were unrelated at all, I might actually go and play short warriors instead of massive dudes.

[Quell]

I know this thread is about age, I get that.

But can we please unlink endurance at least from height/weight?

I'd ask to remove all correlation between size and stats, but some people argue it makes sense for strength, agility and whatnot.

Fine, I say. Just scrap it for endurance at least. If stats and size were unrelated at all, I might actually go and play short warriors instead of massive dudes.

From the helpfile:

"Your race, starting age and guild will affect your starting attribute levels. As your character ages your attributes will reflect the natural changes that happen based on your character's race."

Nowhere is size mentioned.

[CodeMaster]

As you can see - some of the *letter* attributes don't change, even if the *numerical* ones do. It's just that your initial roll put you at the higher end on one, the lower end on another, and right smack dab in the middle and any change to those stats will go up and down only one point, which might not result in a "letter" attribute change for several character years.

Yeah, that's kinda also how I figured it'd work, but this sudden dive from one "letter" to another "letter" in the span of a couple of years is just insane. Meanwhile, everything is going up (if it even is) at a snail pace - Why is my health not even moving at all, too?

I guess only Staff could tell me if everything is working as it should be and I remember that Morgenes keeps saying that it is, but my own experience just makes me wary to create purely "role-play" characters anymore if I always get screwed by the aging system.

26, guys, 26.

I believe it is working correctly (that is, I believe Morgenes), but there are a couple nuances I've discovered that might explain what you're seeing, Malken.

Two young characters can start with similar stats (high agility, lousy everything else).  Actually, I'd imagine most young characters have pretty similar stats within their race.  Rerolling doesn't seem to do too much.  The differences between two rolls are hard to see.

Then they start aging.  After a few years, we start to see these young characters diverging.  One of them, it turns out, actually has intrinsically 'exceptional' strength, and his jumps in that category are big (from "average" to "good" say -- yes, this happened and it was pretty cool).  The other character has an intrinsically mediocre roll, and his stat jumps are small.

Now, when you start a 26 year old character, I'd imagine you immediately know whether you have a firecracker or a dud.  The discrepancies between your 'reroll' and your 'reroll undo' are large, noticeable, and it makes it easier to pick.

A younger character is a present you have to wait to unwrap.  But as it turns out, most characters are average.  In fact, I think Morgenes explained that stats are normally distributed around some racial mean, but I read that a while ago.  So most characters are going to start mediocre and stay mediocre, clustering around average.

Mediocre characters are duds.  Players recognize this.  You can verify this by looking at the logs on the webpage and correlating which characters are literally driving their characters into suicidal situations with lousy stat rolls.

But guess what?  Those players have logs on the log page!  They did something cool with that lousy stat roll.  A lousy stat roll is your chance to play adventurously.  A good stat roll, I suspect, can be a recipe for a boring character.

[Malken]

Yeah, that makes sense, CodeMaster, and a good explanation. Thanks. I'll accept it!

I was mostly kidding about the suiciding it part, when I make a younger character I know that he's going to suck at pretty much everything, so it's not that much of a traumatic surprise.

I just wish he would start slowly /not/ sucking into his older age rather than start sucking rapidly right from the get-go ;p

But that's the beauty (or nightmare) of Armageddon, you never know what sort of character you'll end up with.

[CodeMaster]

A younger character is a present you have to wait to unwrap.

that didn't come out the way I meant

[Harmless]

Codemaster's explanation seems to me like it could definitely explain Malken's scenario above.

Given this is how the code works and it's unlikely to change, I guess the take-home here is that if you want to roll a concept that requires stats to be a certain level to accomplish your goals, then start them at a near-adult age. If, on the other hand, stats don't matter much to attain your goals, then you could start them young, since you're in a sense blinded to what their potential is and won't know what the stats actually are until much later. If you want to be less blinded and know out of the box what your character will end up as, then you can always be just a few years older than the youngest extreme and play a 19 or 20 year old (still quite young).

[Patuk]

Size does affect stats. It's been two years, but staff have confirmed it to be true.

Also, as long as I'm asking for things I know won't happen.. Can anyone tell me why elf wisdom is equal to human wisdom? Anyone who's played a number of mages belonging to either race should be able to confirm this.

[Harmless]

Size does affect stats. It's been two years, but staff have confirmed it to be true.

Also, as long as I'm asking for things I know won't happen.. Can anyone tell me why elf wisdom is equal to human wisdom? Anyone who's played a number of mages belonging to either race should be able to confirm this.

(don't take my post as a serious answer)

[Patuk]

wut

If elves are OP I have been doing it all wrong for a while now

[wizturbo]

Can anyone tell me why elf wisdom is equal to human wisdom? Anyone who's played a number of mages belonging to either race should be able to confirm this.

You're assuming wisdom = mana in a linear fashion.  Not sure that's the case.

[Patuk]

Okay. I am.

[Malken]

I promised myself not to die or store this character so I can update this thread every IC year and we can all share in my pain and misery until he dies of old age.

The cycle of poor stats will have come full circle. Amen.